Topic: Understanding the Ponzi Narrative - page 3. (Read 932 times)

Educating the masses would help clearify the issue of Bitcoin seen as ponzi. Many people have been a victim of ponzi schemes and most of them now generalize any online investment or opportunity as ponzi. But educating the masses can throw some enlightenment and clear the notion off. Ponzi is very different from ponzi in the sense that Bitcoin is completely decentralized and once a fraction is purchased either through a p2p network or throw any other means it remains in your wallet giving the buyer complete possession of the coin. In the area of ponzi the investor is investing in a project that isn't self explanatory. The attractive attributes is the promise to double the investment by an attractive percentage and most investors fall for that

The thing is need to dissociate the media from the scheme. As madoff used $ to make ponzi doesnt mean $ is a ponzi. You can do ponzi with paperclips or socks. Its all in how you sell the asset with a promise of return when there is no return to expect at all.

Satoshi said clearly there is no dividend to expect from bitcoin its not like stock its like commodity.

I found this thread last day it was intersting to read on many levels.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4772

But still nowday cant deny most people buy bitcoin because they are sold a future benefit by selling it again latter. And this still gravitate around fraudulent schemes.

Can say its same in theory with some other kind of commodity but in reality rarely the case and even more rare twice and beyond that you can call a pyramid scheme.

Like ok you can resell a car but rarely more expansive used after 10 years than what you bought it new.

You can resell a computer but rarely more expansive used 10 years after than what you bought it new.

You can find some case like either some retro thing that is not in production anymore, or production is made more expansive for some reason. None of this really apply to bitcoin at all.

Only stocks or productive assets can be sold multiple times over years with a profit without being really a crude pyramid scheme because some value is created along the way and what you sell is a share of the owernship of this productive asset.

Bitcoin is not a stock or a productive asset, not by the huge margin of profit people expect from it ( x10, x100 etc ).

So in many case its still sold in a way that is close to fraudulent pyramid scheme by selling it as something that will rise in value for someone else latter.

And ponzi != pyramid scheme != greater fool game != mlm.

But many of those tricks or some form of market cornering are used to sell cryptos for a profits. You could even argue most of the demand is fueled by that. Hence why some people assimilate the crypto economy with fradulent scheme.

You can very rarely find legitimate case where you are going to buy a commodity and resell it at higher price without someone being ripped in the way.

Merchants are doing profits but they have a shop, some inventory, tax to pay and the staff that are essential part of making the commodity available. And that where the profit is going and its a one time profit.

You are not going to buy a commodity in a shop and just sell it back twice the price to someone else. Or its already in the gray area of morality/scam and in the realm of pyramid scheme. Because maybe you abuse someone vulnerability or weakness in a way or another.

By that reasoning, isn't everything a part of nature?

Yes, there's power abusage. However, at least there's a theoretical protection. I can't see it same like I do with classic ponzis.

So, what to do since these people live among you and me? The overwhelming majority doesn't trust themselves more than the state.

Of that I'm agreed. I spoke about the pension system.

Yes, because humans are part of nature and follow nature's laws, even if they don't realize it.

So, BTC is also a product of nature in a sense... just like fractals (sacred geometry).

In theory, yes, they enforce certain things to "protect" you. The reality is little bit more different.

Uhm, I don't know, maybe paying taxes for 40+ years to get a shitty pension in the end?

Just imagine doing DCA for 40 years: https://dcabtc.com/

Even 5 years only can pay huge dividends.

The choice is clear for me. I don't trust the state, I trust myself more (BTC as a pension).

Of course not everyone is a responsible person. Most people would rather have instant gratification and spend their whole capital prematurely.

I prefer to treat adults like adults, not babies (infantilization) that need "protection" from a "dad" (nanny state).

Yeah, especially since abortions are legal too. You cannot have both abortions (so lack of workers) and a strong social security/pension system. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You have to pick only one.

Monopolies hurt competition and increase corruption. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

For the state? They clearly don't!

How ethical can it be to pay 40% taxes and get shitty rewards from the state...

Come on, we crypto people look for the lowest fees all the time, even 5% seems crazy high. 40% fees would be insane and yet, sheeple eat it up.

Hmm, interesting. However, is it proper to compare what nature does to human with what human does to human? Ponzi is a form of fraud made by humans effecting solely humans.

I think it's advisable to say that laws exist to protect the society. Legalization happens from the state to supposedly protect/take care of you. Yeah, pension looks like a pyramid, and many other things in life too. That's why the ponzi, as a term, is strict.

Besides, ponzi is by far a big fraud. What fraudulent does the pension system have?

Do you consider this a strong proof to consider the entire pension system fraudulent?

I agree about the latter, but for the former, I'm not yet convinced.

Do ethics matter?

Of course there is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_level

There's a (mathematical) reason we cannot have infinite trophic levels. It's a pyramid system, made by nature herself. That doesn't mean we should stop eating meat, let alone food altogether. It is what it is.

So it's not necessarily a bad thing... it's just the law of nature. Nature knows better than Homo Sapiens, there's no question about that.

There are legalized ponzi schemes, such as the social insurance/pension system.

Some pensioners (especially early ones 100 years ago) got pensions for paying literally nothing (when the pension system started in the West) and current workers pay exorbitant taxes to fund the pension system, with no promise of getting a decent pension. Seems familiar?

Pension systems require new members/workers, which requires births and there's a birth deficit in the West these days. It will collapse sooner or later, just like Madoff's ponzi scheme.

I would call it a scam, but it's legalized by the state. Just like there's legalized violence (police) and legalized money monopoly (fiat currencies issued by private central banks like FED/ECB).

So it doesn't matter if it's a scam, what matters is if it's legal (having state backing) or not. Madoff didn't have any state backing (he was a small fish compared to big fraudsters), so there you go.

Thank god we have BTC, that's my "pension insurance". I don't give a shit about state pensions, regardless of the countless taxes I've paid over the years.

I remember reading the article a few years ago where the term "natural" ponzi scheme was invented. The author wanted to say that is Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but they couldn't because it is not. So, they invented the term "natural" ponzi scheme. Of course, the bitcoin-is-a-scam crowd loved this term and has adopted it because now they can call Bitcoin a "natural" ponzi scheme, which seems to describe some kind of scam.

A "natural" ponzi scheme is not a ponzi scheme. It more closely resembles a pyramid scheme because both rely on early adopters making money from later adopters. Regardless, keep in mind that a "natural" ponzi scheme is an artificial term that doesn't describe any kind of real scam.

A Ponzi scheme is an investment scam in which the operator only pretends to invest the victim's money. They might pay returns using invested money, but they don't necessarily have to. Instead, they may just create account statements that show fake returns. Many restrict withdrawals so that they don't have to pay returns.

The word "unaware" is a strong one for the argument, I think most of the investors of Bitcoin are aware of where does their profits came from, if they have manage to gain they should also know that some random person at the moment lost if they sell it on a lower price. If the haters tell you that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, then it won't survive for this long, as most ponzi schemes have been already eliminated and bitcoin still manage to survive.

There's no such thing as a natural-occuring ponzi. Something is a ponzi or it isn't. Neither gold and bitcoin are ponzis as there are no promised returns from (the) creators.

And same goes for dog coins. However, it is obvious enough that the creators do it for the profit. Even if they find alibis (that it has a usage), I can't unsee those as frauds. Still, they aren't ponzis. Ponzi has a really strict definition.

The Ponzi claim shows a basic misunderstanding of bitcoin and investments. Yes, there is always a triangular structure with all investments, whereby newer investors are needed to keep the value of the investments going up. However, with Ponzi schemes there is fraud and misrepresentation, often with false claims of cash flows. Bitcoin is simply a network of people who generally value its decentralization. That early investors get rich is a feature of all investment types, including major stocks.

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A Ponzi is something very specific that implies illicit activity. Bitcoin is not and should thus not be referred to as a type of Ponzi. As I pointed out elsewhere, there may be similarities, but there are also major differences.

Bitcoin IS a “Ponzi”, but a natural-occuring Ponzi, like Gold. It’s not a Madoff-style Ponzi. Bitcoin doesn’t have a centralized issuer who can run away with your money. Plus Bitcoin is transferrable, it is used for payments. IT IS MONEY.


Both Ponzis and Bitcoin rely on the free market, but Ponzis are scams, Bitcoin is not.

That is not a Ponzi scheme. That is a pyramid scheme.

Simple

Who are the rich lords who sacrificed others in Bitcoin? no, in fact, everyone who invests in bitcoin experiences the benefits without anyone being harmed.
Ponzi schemes do not apply to Bitcoin, for me it is too conventional if there are still people who generalize Bitcoin with Ponzi schemes. even those people don't really understand what Ponzi really is.

Okay, who do we put the money in Bitcoin to? while the Ponzi pattern or scheme from A to B to C to D and so on. In Bitcoin who is the intermediary to continue our money? other than ourselves. In fact, Bitcoin is present as one of the first systems that dared to destroy the Ponzi system.

Why? because this is what I often say to people who think Bitcoin is Ponzi
"NO SYSTEM OFFERING FINANCIAL FREEDOM EXCEPT BITCOIN" think !!!!

ponzi, get paid after you invite people to join that project. and when people you invite, invite the other people, you will get bonus. salary made by people's line under your recruit.
i ever ask by my family about this, she ask me to join with bonus and the other extra cash. what we do just pay some cash and follow the rule, but i reject it because i know the end.

The rational price for an asset is its risk-adjusted Present Value, which in this case is based on aggregate expectations of a future price. So while the current price may not be justified by the current utility, it could be justified by the future utility.

Except there is nothing forcing newbies to sell and lose out. The ones who hold through the dips and crashes and emerge through the other end have exactly the same percentage gains from that cycle as any "whale or veteran", as you put it. In a Ponzi scheme the new investor always loses to the older investor. In bitcoin any user can win or lose over any other user, if timing the market is what you are interested in.

Except all the merchants accepting bitcoin for goods and services, all the users spending bitcoin to buy those goods and services, all the employees receiving some or all of their paycheck in bitcoin, etc. You know, like any other currency.

Obviously late investors won't be benefited by bitcoin price fluctuations like early ones were, but it doesn't mean once this day comes bitcoin will become useless and disappear, like any ponzi schemes around.

Bitcoin will keep being used as virtual currency and as a method to protect our patrimony against inflation and abusive regulations from local governments over our money and properties.

However mutual trust from adopters is a must, otherwise what I said above won't work...

i think almost everyone knows what ponzi scam is and when some influential or famous guy comes to compare bitcoin with ponzi scam that person knows that's not true so they're just talking to piss off bitcoin users, if bicoin is ponzi then They could also call gold a ponzi scheme, diamond and oil a ponzi scheme. I think we have to start ignoring anyone who calls bitcoin a ponzi scheme.

From wikipedia:
A pyramid scheme is a form of fraud similar in some ways to a Ponzi scheme, relying as it does on a mistaken belief in a nonexistent financial reality, including the hope of an extremely high rate of return.


Sure there are differences between pyramid and ponzi schemes but the larger point is that there is no legitimate business utility for crypto at this point that is driving the prices up. If you invest in Apple stock they are going to manufacture more iPhones expand more across the world/country and thus you get rewarded for it.

For Crypto, there is no product yet that is driving the prices up. It is 100% speculation at this point.

Ofcourse if you are invested in BTC/Crypto then you will not see the larger picture.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

Here is one more way to look at it. There are 15000+ cryptos in the space. Is each and every one of them legit? No. 99% of them will go out this cycle. They are all pump and dumps. Now, they are all similar to BTC except for 1 thing. They are not as popular. That's all there is to it.

Your are one of the ignorant people I mentioned before. You say that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, but you don't know what a Ponzi scheme is.

You go on and talk about pyramid schemes, as if you believe that a pyramid scheme is a type of Ponzi scheme. That demonstrates that you don't know what a Ponzi scheme is.