(Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork - page 3.

Beeker

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Quote from: AlexGR on April 01, 2014, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: Beeker on April 01, 2014, 01:59:05 PM

Please guys, keep this ontopic. It's not a HIC / DRK topic.

Yes, you are right: The question is really how can LTC-x coinholders be protected from the dumping that is possible from cloning LTCs of the main fork.

Let's say the fork is on 5th April 16:00 GMT.

1. On April 5, 15:00 GMT, I go on cryptsy, sell 10 BTC for 400 LTCs, send the 400 LTCs to my wallet.

2. 16:00 GMT- => Fork happens using the blockchain info up to that point.

3. On 17:00 GMT I send my 400 LTCs back to cryptsy and sell them for 10 BTCs. So I have my 10 BTCs back.

4. I now have 400 LTCs on the LTC-x fork which I'm ready to dump whenever it hits an exchange.

This is too exploitable.

No, it's not.

Your wallet and Cryptsy will be on the same hardfork at the same block, so you will end up with either 400 LTC or 10 BTC.
If Cryptsy isn't on the hardfork, then we didn't get all the big exchanges on the hardfork and there will be no hardfork.

As I said before, the hardfork is the easiest part of the project. It has been done before with other coins, changing specifications and/or algorithm.
Getting everyone over to the new algorithm is our challenge.

AlexGR

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Quote from: Beeker on April 01, 2014, 01:59:05 PM

Please guys, keep this ontopic. It's not a HIC / DRK topic.

Yes, you are right: The question is really how can LTC-x coinholders be protected from the dumping that is possible from cloning LTCs of the main fork.

Let's say the fork is on 5th April 16:00 GMT.

1. On April 5, 15:00 GMT, I go on cryptsy, sell 10 BTC for 400 LTCs, send the 400 LTCs to my wallet.

2. 16:00 GMT- => Fork happens using the blockchain info up to that point.

3. On 17:00 GMT I send my 400 LTCs back to cryptsy and sell them for 10 BTCs. So I have my 10 BTCs back.

4. I now have 400 LTCs on the LTC-x fork which I'm ready to dump whenever it hits an exchange.

This is too exploitable.

Beeker

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Quote from: AlexGR on April 01, 2014, 01:56:36 PM

Quote from: MaGNeT on April 01, 2014, 01:32:47 PM

Quote from: AlexGR on April 01, 2014, 01:27:54 PM

So if someone is a BTC holder and buys 10.000 LTC, intentionally, one block prior to the fork, and sells these 10.000 LTC back one block after the fork, then he'll suddenly have both his BTCs and the LTCs on the alternate fork.

Now, if and whenever some exchange adopts xLTC, then he'll have 10.000 LTC to spend / dump in the alternate fork. Yeah, I mean, what can possibly go wrong there... hmmm... Grin

I don't know much about hardforking and coding but this is bull.

There have been mandatory updates before that can kick you of the hardfork unless you upgrade.
It shouldn't be too hard.

Actually that's a different issue because we are really talking about two different coins where the LTC-x will have as "premine" the exact situation of the LTC blockchain up to block number .

Normal hardforks are one fork pulling ahead and making the other obsolete by virtue of 51% hashpower on the exact same network. There will be no hashpower competition in two different algorithm networks. What will be, is two different coins where one is trying to obsolete the other, but that will, in itself, be in a very vulnerable position for an economic attack.

Non-LTC stakeholders have nothing to lose by buying a few LTCs prior to the fork, cloning them automatically to the alternate fork which will use the same blockchain, selling the LTCs they bought on the main fork, and then waiting for a few months to see if LTC-x is ever adopted in some exchange so that they can dump the heck out of it with the cloned LTCs.

Quote

I predict GPU miners will do the same as they did 12 months ago: they left BTC when ASICs took over the network.
Now ASICs are taking over the LTC network and GPU LTC miners need a new coin to mine.

Hirocoin will be the next coin to watch. It doesn't sound as "black and illegal" as Darkcoin, so there will be no problems for shops to accept it.
I predicted the same for LTC 12 months ago and people told me I was crazy. Well... Who's crazy now? Wink

proof: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ltc-price-will-go-up-in-2-3-months-dont-sell-now-youll-regret-it-160300

X11 is the algo of 2014.

I'm a DRK / X11 fan as well, and I understand the miner's love towards X11. Thing is, and LTC devs have a point there, if something is GPU mineable = it is ASICable. Whether it's X11, Scrypt, Scrypt-N etc etc. It's all the same really, except the price perhaps: X11 asics can be more affordable for regular people as they will require less ram - so the "ASICs are great for the network" and "X11 is actually easier to ASIC" combined with the higher mem prices = epic win through affordable X11 ASICs Tongue

The time involved is probably not even 1 to 2 years, but more like a few months for designing and manufacturing. Bur right now, yes, X11 is practically ASIC-resistant as it doesn't have any ASICs chasing it down. And with electricity prices being what they are, and heat being an issue, X11 will probably be the summer choice for north hemisphere.

As for Hirocoin vs DRK, Hirocoin is competing in the transparent market vs other altcoins.

The transparent market is a monopoly right now of 10bn market cap value where Bitcoin is the undisputed leader. Darkcoin is creating a new market and providing a new choice: Do you want your transactions and your money to be tracked, or do you want privacy?

So, just as you have one shop and everyone goes there (100% market) and then another one opens and the marketshare is shifted towards the new choice, it's the same situation with Darkcoin.

By presenting a new choice, people will now be able to choose on whether they want public or private cryptocurrencies. If even 1% of the transparent market opts for privacy, we are talking about 100 mn market cap. If 10% goes for the private market, we are talking about a billion USD.

I don't know how Hirocoin, or any other plain altcoin can have a better "this is the coin to watch" prospect than DRK. The fundamentals are very strong.

Please guys, keep this ontopic. It's not a HIC / DRK topic.

AlexGR

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Quote from: MaGNeT on April 01, 2014, 01:32:47 PM

Quote from: AlexGR on April 01, 2014, 01:27:54 PM

So if someone is a BTC holder and buys 10.000 LTC, intentionally, one block prior to the fork, and sells these 10.000 LTC back one block after the fork, then he'll suddenly have both his BTCs and the LTCs on the alternate fork.

Now, if and whenever some exchange adopts xLTC, then he'll have 10.000 LTC to spend / dump in the alternate fork. Yeah, I mean, what can possibly go wrong there... hmmm... Grin

I don't know much about hardforking and coding but this is bull.

There have been mandatory updates before that can kick you of the hardfork unless you upgrade.
It shouldn't be too hard.

Actually that's a different issue because we are really talking about two different coins where the LTC-x will have as "premine" the exact situation of the LTC blockchain up to block number .

Normal hardforks are one fork pulling ahead and making the other obsolete by virtue of 51% hashpower on the exact same network. There will be no hashpower competition in two different algorithm networks. What will be, is two different coins where one is trying to obsolete the other, but that will, in itself, be in a very vulnerable position for an economic attack.

Non-LTC stakeholders have nothing to lose by buying a few LTCs prior to the fork, cloning them automatically to the alternate fork which will use the same blockchain, selling the LTCs they bought on the main fork, and then waiting for a few months to see if LTC-x is ever adopted in some exchange so that they can dump the heck out of it with the cloned LTCs.

Quote

I predict GPU miners will do the same as they did 12 months ago: they left BTC when ASICs took over the network.
Now ASICs are taking over the LTC network and GPU LTC miners need a new coin to mine.

Hirocoin will be the next coin to watch. It doesn't sound as "black and illegal" as Darkcoin, so there will be no problems for shops to accept it.
I predicted the same for LTC 12 months ago and people told me I was crazy. Well... Who's crazy now? Wink

proof: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ltc-price-will-go-up-in-2-3-months-dont-sell-now-youll-regret-it-160300

X11 is the algo of 2014.

I'm a DRK / X11 fan as well, and I understand the miners love towards X11. Thing is, and LTC devs have a point there, if something is GPU mineable = it is ASICable. Whether it's X11, Scrypt, Scrypt-N etc etc. It's all the same really, except the price perhaps: X11 asics can be more affordable for regular people as they will require less ram - so the "ASICs are great for the network" and "X11 is actually easier to ASIC" combined with the higher mem prices = epic win through affordable X11 ASICs, instead of expensive-only-for-the-rich scrypt/scryptN asics Tongue

The time involved is probably not even 1 to 2 years, but more like a few months for designing and manufacturing. But right now, yes, X11 is practically ASIC-resistant as it doesn't have any ASICs chasing it down. And with electricity prices being what they are, and heat being an issue, X11 will probably be the summer choice for north hemisphere.

As for Hirocoin vs DRK, Hirocoin is competing in the transparent market vs other altcoins.

The transparent market is a monopoly right now of 10bn market cap value where Bitcoin is the undisputed leader. Darkcoin is creating a new market and providing a new choice: Do you want your transactions and your money to be tracked, or do you want privacy?

So, just as you have one shop and everyone goes there (100% market) and then another one opens and the marketshare is shifted towards the new choice, it's the same situation with Darkcoin.

By presenting a new choice, people will now be able to choose on whether they want public or private cryptocurrencies. If even 1% of the transparent market opts for privacy, we are talking about 100 mn market cap. If 10% goes for the private market, we are talking about a billion USD.

I don't know how Hirocoin, or any other plain altcoin can have a better "this is the coin to watch" prospect than DRK. The fundamentals are very strong.

jddebug

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Quote from: superresistant on April 01, 2014, 12:56:57 PM

Haha well said Beeker.
I like the attitude.

Fuck the ASIC investors. They are just here for the money.

Oh yes, all the people who bought GPU's were just wanting great gaming machines and to support the litecoin community with all the extra noise and heat and electricity usage. They had NO profit motivation in buying a bunch of $400 GPU's.

MaGNeT

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Waves | 3PHMaGNeTJfqFfD4xuctgKdoxLX188QM8na

Quote from: AlexGR on April 01, 2014, 01:27:54 PM

So if someone is a BTC holder and buys 10.000 LTC, intentionally, one block prior to the fork, and sells these 10.000 LTC back one block after the fork, then he'll suddenly have both his BTCs and the LTCs on the alternate fork.

Now, if and whenever some exchange adopts xLTC, then he'll have 10.000 LTC to spend / dump in the alternate fork. Yeah, I mean, what can possibly go wrong there... hmmm... Grin

I don't know much about hardforking and coding but this is bull.

There have been mandatory updates before that can kick you of the hardfork unless you upgrade.
It shouldn't be too hard.

I predict GPU miners will do the same as they did 12 months ago: they left BTC when ASICs took over the network.
Now ASICs are taking over the LTC network and GPU LTC miners need a new coin to mine.

Hirocoin will be the next coin to watch. It doesn't sound as "black and illegal" as Darkcoin, so there will be no problems for shops to accept it.
I predicted the same for LTC 12 months ago and people told me I was crazy. Well... Who's crazy now? Wink

proof: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ltc-price-will-go-up-in-2-3-months-dont-sell-now-youll-regret-it-160300

X11 is the algo of 2014.

AlexGR

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So if someone is a BTC holder and buys 10.000 LTC, intentionally, one block prior to the fork, and sells these 10.000 LTC back one block after the fork, then he'll suddenly have both his BTCs and the LTCs on the alternate fork.

Now, if and whenever some exchange adopts xLTC, then he'll have 10.000 LTC to spend / dump in the alternate fork. Yeah, I mean, what can possibly go wrong there... hmmm... Grin

Beeker

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Quote from: flower1024 on April 01, 2014, 12:56:09 PM

Quote from: Beeker on April 01, 2014, 12:46:16 PM

- dear Charlie, we will not disclose that (yet)
- show me one existing X11 ASIC?
- yes, we would. And because of that, no company would take the risk to invest in building an ASIC for X11 unless another X11 coin (HIRO / DRK) becomes the second cryptocurrency
- our main concern is we will not be able to convince an overwhelming majority to support the hardfork and that's why we will have to put much effort in it
- exchanges and pools will be dealt with, without their support there will be no hardfork. A website is not vital for the survival of a coin, you may or may not host the hardforked client on the current website, there are other ways to distribute a client
- the hardforked coin still is LTC after the hardfork, so no reason for confusion. All the coins will stay where they are, except for a client update nothing will change for anyone, except the miners use another miner and scrypt ASICS become irrelevant for LTC

so there will be no hardfork. no more worries Wink

if all exchanges and pools switch at the same moment the confusion will only be short: but its still very unlikely to happen

We don't want to create confusion, that's why we are clear about what we want to do:

- create enough support by a majority involved with LTC (pools, exchanges, community)
- hardfork at current block + 3 months so there will be enough time for everyone to switch over their clients/daemons at the time the chosen block is reached

We want this to be a smooth experience for we are heavily invested in Litecoin ourselves and it would be plain stupid to shoot in our own foot.

coblee

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Creator of Litecoin. Cryptocurrency enthusiast.

Well, I'm sad to see that you are going ahead with this plan. And using the 65% vote of a tiny poll as the reason. I would have to assume this is a FUD attempt by a group that is trying to destroy Litecoin or by a misguided group that has no vision on what's good for Litecoin. Either way, the Litecoin development team will fight hard against it. Though it's a super waste of our time and resources.

Quote from: jtsnau on April 01, 2014, 10:27:26 AM

On the other hand, the Darwinian in me says that if a single person (or team) can bring down a coin simply by persuading people to accept a forked version of it, then it's not robust enough to be used as a currency and therefore deserves oblivion.

This hijacking attempt will be a good test for Litecoin.

Agreed. If this FUD attempt can bring down Litecoin, then Litecoin is not strong enough. And if this rogue development team can overthrow us, then we don't deserve to be running Litecoin development. This is an open decentralized currency, so time will tell.

Beeker

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Quote from: patrike on April 01, 2014, 12:53:05 PM

Quote from: Beeker on April 01, 2014, 05:26:49 AM

We feel the 65% in the poll is a pretty convincing number for us to continue on our project.

You never considered that people that want to ruin Litecoin completely (because of interest/investment in other coins) may vote Yes to fork Litecoin - just because they all know that such a fork will create chaos and make Litecoin become less popular?

Isn't it also likely that most of the people voting Yes never had a chance to read the offical response from the Litecoin team? I think most people that first think "oh, I don't like asic for some reason, I must vote yes here because some random guy on the Internet say so", actually would change their opinion if they read the very good arguments for not changing to X11.

In addition to all that, there are probably many people that consider this to be a joke and don't even bother to vote. After all, X11 is more ASIC friendly and Botnet friendly than Scrypt, so none of this makes much sense.

Thanks for your response.
A link to the official response of the current Litecoin developers is in the OP.

superresistant

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Haha well said Beeker.
I like the attitude.

Fuck the ASIC investors. They are just here for the money.

flower1024

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Quote from: Beeker on April 01, 2014, 12:46:16 PM

- dear Charlie, we will not disclose that (yet)
- show me one existing X11 ASIC?
- yes, we would. And because of that, no company would take the risk to invest in building an ASIC for X11 unless another X11 coin (HIRO / DRK) becomes the second cryptocurrency
- our main concern is we will not be able to convince an overwhelming majority to support the hardfork and that's why we will have to put much effort in it
- exchanges and pools will be dealt with, without their support there will be no hardfork. A website is not vital for the survival of a coin, you may or may not host the hardforked client on the current website, there are other ways to distribute a client
- the hardforked coin still is LTC after the hardfork, so no reason for confusion. All the coins will stay where they are, except for a client update nothing will change for anyone, except the miners use another miner and scrypt ASICS become irrelevant for LTC

so there will be no hardfork. no more worries Wink

if all exchanges and pools switch at the same moment the confusion will only be short: but its still very unlikely to happen

patrike

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Quote from: Beeker on April 01, 2014, 05:26:49 AM

We feel the 65% in the poll is a pretty convincing number for us to continue on our project.

You never considered that people that want to ruin Litecoin completely (because of interest/investment in other coins) may vote Yes to fork Litecoin - just because they all know that such a fork will create chaos and make Litecoin become less popular?

Isn't it also likely that most of the people voting Yes never had a chance to read the offical response from the Litecoin team? I think most people that first think "oh, I don't like asic for some reason, I must vote yes here because some random guy on the Internet say so", actually would change their opinion if they read the very good arguments for not changing to X11.

In addition to all that, there are probably many people that consider this to be a joke and don't even bother to vote. After all, X11 is more ASIC friendly and Botnet friendly than Scrypt, so none of this makes much sense.

Beeker

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Quote from: coblee on April 01, 2014, 06:08:06 AM

Quote from: Beeker on April 01, 2014, 05:26:49 AM

We feel the 65% in the poll is a pretty convincing number for us to continue on our project.

The original developers vote against but Litecoin is not owned by them.
Litecoin is owned by the community.

The developers try to spread FUD, we expected this.
Phase 2 of project "LTC 2 X11" will start in 3 weeks from now.
We will contact pool operators of major pools and exchanges to make the transition as smooth as possible.

If pools and or exchanges won't follow us, we understand we can't finish our project. We need their support for this to succeed.
I expect they will be contacted by Coblee too, so we really need to convince them.

Thanks for your support so far!

Hey X11 team, would you be willing to make a post to respond to our posts? https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=18166.0
Specifically:
- Who are you and why are you hiding behind the user Beeker?
- X11 is possibly less ASIC-resistant than even Scrypt. So why X11?
- Would you just switch algorithm again when ASIC is ever built for X11?
- Are you not concerned about splintering the Litecoin userbase with this controversial change?
- How do you plan to convince the exchanges to switch to your fork when you don't have the support of the Litecoin developers, the Litecoin Association, and have no influence within the community (I'm assuming this since we don't know who you are), and have no control of litecoin.org and other litecoin websites?
- Are you willing to not use the name Litecoin/LTC so as to not cause mass confusion?

Looking forward to your reply.

And when you do reveal yourself. Please please convince us why your development team will do a better job than the current Litecoin development team moving forward. What kind of development work have you done on Bitcoin, Litecoin, or any other alts. And lastly, if your motivations are to save Litecoin, than why have you not contributed to the Litecoin codebase previously and joined our team?

- dear Charlie, we will not disclose that (yet)
- show me one existing X11 ASIC?
- yes, we would. And because of that, no company would take the risk to invest in building an ASIC for X11 unless another X11 coin (HIRO / DRK) becomes the second cryptocurrency
- our main concern is we will not be able to convince an overwhelming majority to support the hardfork and that's why we will have to put much effort in it
- exchanges and pools will be dealt with, without their support there will be no hardfork. A website is not vital for the survival of a coin, you may or may not host the hardforked client on the current website, there are other ways to distribute a client
- the hardforked coin still is LTC after the hardfork, so no reason for confusion. All the coins will stay where they are, except for a client update nothing will change for anyone, except the miners use another miner and scrypt ASICS become irrelevant for LTC

You're welcome.

Beeker

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Quote from: dragonhunter on April 01, 2014, 10:53:36 AM

LTC is not just about mining anymore... people have invested $ into LTC, so how will u explain to average Joe, that his 10000$ worth of LTC is lost, cause he send them to the LTC wallet that doesnt exist. Go and create your own "ASIC resistant" coin, build infrastructure around it, do whaveter you want... and leave LTC to DEV team and community behind them.

When the hardfork and the transition to the new algorithm is completed, it's still LTC but with another algorithm. Please don't spread FUD.

dragonhunter

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LTC is not just about mining anymore... people have invested $ into LTC, so how will u explain to average Joe, that his 10000$ worth of LTC is lost, cause he send them to the LTC wallet that doesnt exist. Go and create your own "ASIC resistant" coin, build infrastructure around it, do whaveter you want... and leave LTC to DEV team and community behind them.

HunterS

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just shut this topic down and move on.its just terrible what u are trying to do.and than to go say u going ahead with it if u get the community support weather litecoin devs like it or not.that just down right fuking rude and inconsiderate.if thats your attitude i wouldnt want u as a dev.

dragonhunter

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Quote from: kelsey on March 30, 2014, 07:33:45 AM

Quote from: Beeker on March 30, 2014, 07:07:17 AM

We, a team of Litecoin supporters and developers

who is this we?

Retarded scammer, trying to destroy hard work of LTC developement team, and most likely LTC itself...?

Raw-H

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I'm still not figured out if you guys are trolling or just too dumb to see you are harming the coin.

And why not make it CPU mine only?? Litecoin, originally, wasn't ment for GPU's either.

The ONLY reason to do this is to retain GPU mineability. Yet the downsides don't weigh up for this point. Decentralization due to ASICs is nonsense, the vendors are openly selling their hardware so the hashes will go to the private person who bought them. A higher risk would be the centralised pooling of hashes, especially the auto-switch pools but this problem can't be fixed.

jtsnau

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Quote from: ghur on April 01, 2014, 06:00:06 AM

Quote from: Beeker on April 01, 2014, 05:26:49 AM

continue on our project.

Oh great. I'll have to go get some more popcorn.

I thought this display of comedy was already over. But here comes the second act.

Yep. Might be time to cash in my Litecoins - this split in the community will only hurt the price.

And all for some perceived threat from ASICs that may never eventuate. Sad.

On the other hand, the Darwinian in me says that if a single person (or team) can bring down a coin simply by persuading people to accept a forked version of it, then it's not robust enough to be used as a currency and therefore deserves oblivion.

This hijacking attempt will be a good test for Litecoin.

Topic: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork - page 3. (Read 68442 times)