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Topic: Unofficial BITMINE CoinCraft series 28nm ASIC miners thread - page 15. (Read 202952 times)

legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
so also the 71th day cancellation is bullshit. It clearly states 61 days. Why would one add the 10 days? Late shipment is late shipment even if 10 days are allowed. Not need to add them up.

I agree with you.

Again we have an unfair reinterpretation of facts.

Quote
1) Shipment can be late up to a maximum of 10 days from the agreed shipment date.

2) For each subsequent 10 days of late shipping, we will add for free 10% more hashing power to your order as penalty.

3) After the 61st day of late shipment, you have the right to request a full refund and we will pay you an additional penalty of 10% of the initial order amount.


In bitmines own language, "late Shipment" is what they define in paragraph 1. It has nothing to do with CPP, in fact it excludes them and us from the CPP.
It's just the lateness in days, after the agreed upon shipment week.

This same definition can't be changed later on, what are they thinking, to no connect it to the agreed upon shipment week anymore, but rather to the start of the CPP???

Ofcourse not.
What sane person changes the definition inbetween two paragraphs???

They start the sentence with: Listen everybody: "late shipment" means "days passed since the shipment date"...
and two sentences later they go....
nonono! "late shipment" starts with the CPP?

I think any lawyer would start laughing should they hear about such clumsy behaviour. What is this a turkish bazar?

So I am sure you can apply for a refund after 61 days. Don't let bitmine intimidate you. Just do the procedure, and talk to them, and complain about it wherever you can, and how often you can.
This must be heard, or they will think they can do anything they want.
member
Activity: 89
Merit: 10
so also the 71th day cancellation is bullshit. It clearly states 61 days. Why would one add the 10 days? Late shipment is late shipment even if 10 days are allowed. Not need to add them up.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
I think the TSO/CPP is still the same, and has never changed (since atleast November 2013 when I first saw it)

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=850

What has changed is that giorgiomassa made it clear how it has to be interpreted in his last post here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5362648

I am not sure if giorgiomassa is legally right, or if he has mislead us all with the way the CPP is phrased:

Lets looks at it more clearly:

Quote
1) Shipment can be late up to a maximum of 10 days from the agreed shipment date.

2) For each subsequent 10 days of late shipping, we will add for free 10% more hashing power to your order as penalty.

3) After the 61st day of late shipment, you have the right to request a full refund and we will pay you an additional penalty of 10% of the initial order amount.

So giorgiomassa wants to make us believe that the moment paragraph 3) applies, suddenly paragraph 2) becomes invalid, and doesn't apply anymore.


Logic tells me that paragraph 2) does still apply and that's what every customer has assumed too.

Since paragraph 3) clearly mentions an optional action the customer can take (if he chooses to) it makes paragraph 2) look even more valid and untouchable,
since if you don't want you don't have to act upon paragraph 3), you can just ignore it. It's optional.
(Ofcourse should the customer decide to ask for a refund, the CPP together with the complete order is automatically cancelled.
THAT should be the only case when paragraph 2) becomes invalid.)

If paragraph 3) was supposed to invalidate paragraph 2) there should have been a clear formulation that this would be the case.

Giorgiomassa has made a reinterpretation.

What he does is a bit of a stretch: he declares paragraph 2) invalid since he probably assumed that everyone would ask for a refund anyway.
In fact I believe giorgiomassa really hopes and encourages at every chance he gets that we customers should take the refund. I wonder why?
(For example here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5617570 )

PS I am not a lawyer.
member
Activity: 89
Merit: 10
Once again since 70 thread pages: No turbomode (as we were all dreaming of and was sold to us), CPP up to 50% (even we were thinking, that will never come in play). Its not just you, who is disappointed and suffer.

where is it listed in the CPP it's capped at 50%? None of the website or emails I got when I placed the order mentioned any max limit

Exactly - but Giorgio the Great decided to change his mind on that and not be so generous. (Read his last post on the official thread).


have anybody the old orig TOS ?.... i mean, i orderd at that... not on any new tos..

I have the TOS from November and nothing is changed from todays TOS.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Once again since 70 thread pages: No turbomode (as we were all dreaming of and was sold to us), CPP up to 50% (even we were thinking, that will never come in play). Its not just you, who is disappointed and suffer.

where is it listed in the CPP it's capped at 50%? None of the website or emails I got when I placed the order mentioned any max limit

Exactly - but Giorgio the Great decided to change his mind on that and not be so generous. (Read his last post on the official thread).


have anybody the old orig TOS ?.... i mean, i orderd at that... not on any new tos..
legendary
Activity: 1112
Merit: 1000
Exactly - but Giorgio the Great decided to change his mind on that and not be so generous. (Read his last post on the official thread).

I've read that post and it contradicts anything Bitmine published on their website and shared with people ordering

If they change their TOS then it should only apply to new orders since the change
full member
Activity: 127
Merit: 100
Once again since 70 thread pages: No turbomode (as we were all dreaming of and was sold to us), CPP up to 50% (even we were thinking, that will never come in play). Its not just you, who is disappointed and suffer.

where is it listed in the CPP it's capped at 50%? None of the website or emails I got when I placed the order mentioned any max limit

Exactly - but Giorgio the Great decided to change his mind on that and not be so generous. (Read his last post on the official thread).
full member
Activity: 127
Merit: 100
can you stop fucking bitching, yes giorgiomassa was at fault but the desks have been shipping and soon the rigs, you clearly have the option TO GET A DAMN REFUND

You obviously did not spend USD 30k on an order which is 3 months delayed...

It was a pre-order you spend your money on. There was NO product ready to get shipped to you. It was a bet, that they can built that thing and that they can built it in time. The chances were fifty fifty in my eyes. A LOT OF RISK involved.  So, i made a bet with $15k. You doubled. Our bet is going to work, there is a product. Your money is not complete lost.One bet is stil open. The delivery time. I guess no one knows and you cant change it.

So complaint is not allowed?
Is that what it boils down to for you?
While we are raped we might just as well enjoy it?
(After all it's free sex, isn't it?  Huh)

I don't understand the thought of some people here.

Fact is that the information on the bitmine.ch site for months now has been deliberately manipulating the customers into thinking that the risk is very low.
And that you can pay good money to get this low risk.
We were told that should something go wrong, we would get a CPP (everybody assumed an open-ended CPP), and even a 50% turbomode was implied that we could use to make up lost time.
But everything turns out to be a trick.

What good is a turbomode you can't really use ?
What good is a CPP that lets you down after 50% ?

Fact is that many people wouldn't have made orders if they knew how high the risk really is, and that everything bitmine posted was not facts, but assumptions.

So people payed good money, but still got high risk.
So in a way yes they were tricked.

PS: I still hope to get my two devices within the next 3 weeks (I am at 30% CPP at the moment). But I know for sure that I will not recommend or use bitmine ever again. It makes no sense, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.


it sound for me as an OBSESSIONAL NEUROSIS and NOT like a COMPLAIN. Everytime complaining about the same, the same thing. Sorry, for saying that. You cant wash your bad emotions and feelings here.

Once again since 70 thread pages: No turbomode (as we were all dreaming of and was sold to us), CPP up to 50% (even we were thinking, that will never come in play). Its not just you, who is disappointed and suffer.

What I see is that the pre-order is a legal instrument to buy high end mining asic hardware with alot of fools. Thats the game. Anyway, the good thing is that giorgiomassa is back here in the forum and he did not sell his company to the chinese (joke!) and there will be future chip developments (for taking money out of customers) (joke again!)  Grin

When can we celebrate the 1000th Bitmine DESK device?
Dude - you are the one getting emotional here - not GeorgeM - he was dead on.
If you are happy about the fact that the whole bitmine operation just didn´t go bust by now then you are only showing your low attitude. You obviously don´t care much and probably don´t have much skin in the game.

We can and should list those facts as long as there is no official response from Bitmine; in order to protect future customers of not making the same mistake by ordering with them.

1000 - Desks lol ... the current rate was said to be a maximum of 30 - likely less.
This fact alone shows the level of project management fail at bitmine.


legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
@georgem, @giorgiotheclown, @min€r, @tranquille: you are pretty much the only users here out of our 1500+ customers worldwide that are so much disappointed, why don't you very simply ask for a refund now that you have the opportunity to do so? So far we received just a handful of refund requests and I'm betting yours are not among them.


I am not allowed to do a refund yet. I am at 30% CPP at the moment (I assume, I can't know for sure, since even you don't know for sure...)
I still hope I will get my two coindesks this month... It would make me happy. But more and more I think I am daydreaming...

I forgot to ask you:

are those 1500+ customers worldwide... or simply 1500+ ordered devices?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's the latter and you are again doing your politician-talk.  Roll Eyes

Can you confirm?


legendary
Activity: 1112
Merit: 1000
Once again since 70 thread pages: No turbomode (as we were all dreaming of and was sold to us), CPP up to 50% (even we were thinking, that will never come in play). Its not just you, who is disappointed and suffer.

where is it listed in the CPP it's capped at 50%? None of the website or emails I got when I placed the order mentioned any max limit
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Sounds like they are Hashfasting you all with changing TOS after the fact and making it retroactive. Good luck.
newbie
Activity: 24
Merit: 0
I was just reading their TOS again, to check for that 50% cap. Because, maybe I'm stupid but, if they change it after my purchase, those changes do not apply for me at all. And for you too...

And look there, §4.5.2:
Quote
4.5.2 For each subsequent 10 days of late shipment, we will add for free 10% more hashing power to your order.
50% cap my a**...

Something interesting I found out:
TOS - §1.6 reads:
Quote
1.6 Bitmine will confirm its acceptance of your order by sending you an email
confirming that the payment has been received and cleared. This operation
confirms your position in the shipping queue and, as such, the “agreed
shipment date”. Bitmine shall not be under any obligation to accept your order
and the contract between you and Bitmine for the sale of goods will only be
formed once Bitmine has sent you such Paid Order Acceptance Confirmation
email.
That actually means:
Since Bitmine does NOT send out that confirmation on its own as stated in the TOS, if you have not requested the confirmation on your own and have received it, they can claim you never had a contract with them, if they want to.
member
Activity: 89
Merit: 10

sounds like they may be liable for occured damages in terms of mining loss.. maybe thats why they want us to sign these docs.

nice1

legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info

it sound for me as a OBSESSIONAL NEUROSIS and NOT like a COMPLAIN.

And it sounds to me like you are "blaming the victim", which is just wrong.

Well, we can all learn, and tell others about our experience.
But to be silent is the last thing we should do, and that's why you see us complain.

And yes, I will keep complaining, why should I stop?
Has the situation changed or has restitution of any kind happened?

Obviously not, so why stop complaining?

Also, there is a really healthy reason WHY we complain, and it baffles me that bitmine doesn't understand this.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_complaint :


A consumer complaint or customer complaint is “an expression of dissatisfaction on a consumer’s behalf to a responsible party” .
It can also be described in a positive sense as a report from a consumer providing documentation about a problem with a product or service.[1]
In fact, some modern business consultants urge businesses to view customer complaints as a gift.

--->A Customer Complaint Is a Gift


I see it this way: complaining about a company is like "testing someones character".
Checking if the person really cares and wants to take responsibility.

But the way I have seen bitmine react in the last months is not very encouraging.
Instead of showing us that they can be trusted, they start to threaten us, they stifle discussion and even blame us for their delays (I still can't believe this  Cheesy )....
What I initially hoped to become a good deal, has developped into something like a "visit to the dentist" that I can't wait to finally get behind me.
I so hope this will end soon, so I can procede with my life.

But "this dentist" won't even tell me how long I have to wait, and how soon the procedure will be over.... so the waiting and the ambiguity is slowly eating my nerves...

Bitmine, it's your last chance.
Prove you are worth something and that you can be trusted, and your customers will reward you.
Why is this so difficult to understand?Huh
member
Activity: 65
Merit: 10
I actually just sent an email asking if its possible to convert.  I also asked what my estimated shipping time would be if I converted  my order because like you I fear that we may just get shoved to the end of the line.

I received this very quick and nice response from Antonio.  I will say that their queue systems seems whacky I have received different queue positions on different email requests.  Guess I will be waiting for my rig and not switching to a desk after all.


So you are the lucky one Smiley I'm waiting 2 weeks for response on similar request. Cry

I was pleasantly surprised by the extremely quick response this time.  The news wasn't exactly super awesome but they responded to me.  FWIW they have responded to all my email requests (3 or 4 total I think since my order in Nov so I don't think I am being a pest!).  All but this last one took at least a couple of days to get back to me.  Guess my email just happen to be sent at a perfect time for him to catch it a shoot a real quick response too?  Lucky me I guess.

With regards to everything else ya its sucks balls not having a miner yet.
full member
Activity: 131
Merit: 100

PS: ... But I know for sure that I will not recommend or use bitmine ever again. It makes no sense, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.


+1

This type of "business" is the best way to loose clients. And Bitmine will lose a lots of clients. Except Petamine.
newbie
Activity: 30
Merit: 0
I actually just sent an email asking if its possible to convert.  I also asked what my estimated shipping time would be if I converted  my order because like you I fear that we may just get shoved to the end of the line.

I received this very quick and nice response from Antonio.  I will say that their queue systems seems whacky I have received different queue positions on different email requests.  Guess I will be waiting for my rig and not switching to a desk after all.


So you are the lucky one Smiley I'm waiting 2 weeks for response on similar request. Cry
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
Anybody tell me where is bitmine warehouse ? Centro la Monda 2
6528 Camorino ?
Thanks !



But it's hidden very well.
No doorbell, no signs, nothing.

kev.in thanks a lot !
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
can you stop fucking bitching, yes giorgiomassa was at fault but the desks have been shipping and soon the rigs, you clearly have the option TO GET A DAMN REFUND

You obviously did not spend USD 30k on an order which is 3 months delayed...

It was a pre-order you spend your money on. There was NO product ready to get shipped to you. It was a bet, that they can built that thing and that they can built it in time. The chances were fifty fifty in my eyes. A LOT OF RISK involved.  So, i made a bet with $15k. You doubled. Our bet is going to work, there is a product. Your money is not complete lost.One bet is stil open. The delivery time. I guess no one knows and you cant change it.

So complaint is not allowed?
Is that what it boils down to for you?
While we are raped we might just as well enjoy it?
(After all it's free sex, isn't it?  Huh)

I don't understand the thought of some people here.

Fact is that the information on the bitmine.ch site for months now has been deliberately manipulating the customers into thinking that the risk is very low.
And that you can pay good money to get this low risk.
We were told that should something go wrong, we would get a CPP (everybody assumed an open-ended CPP), and even a 50% turbomode was implied that we could use to make up lost time.
But everything turns out to be a trick.

What good is a turbomode you can't really use ?
What good is a CPP that lets you down after 50% ?

Fact is that many people wouldn't have made orders if they knew how high the risk really is, and that everything bitmine posted was not facts, but assumptions.

So people payed good money, but still got high risk.
So in a way yes they were tricked.

PS: I still hope to get my two devices within the next 3 weeks (I am at 30% CPP at the moment). But I know for sure that I will not recommend or use bitmine ever again. It makes no sense, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
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