Topic: Unofficial BITMINE CoinCraft series 28nm ASIC miners thread - page 30. (Read 202957 times)

Quote from: Roy Badami on March 02, 2014, 06:28:33 AM

I truly hope the preorder madness has run its course.

I doubt it. You'll recall that Bitmine offered a choice of a reservation queue and a preorder queue. I always assumed they did it that way because they expected that only very few people would want to preorder.

In the end, though, the community chose to preorders pretty much their entire production for several months, and the reservation queue became essentially pointless.

In a market with imperfect information price is always set by the most optimistic investomers. We are still quite aways off from the "in stock" only business model IMO.

Biomech

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Quote from: Roy Badami on March 02, 2014, 06:28:33 AM

I truly hope the preorder madness has run its course.

I doubt it. You'll recall that Bitmine offered a choice of a reservation queue and a preorder queue. I always assumed they did it that way because they expected that only very few people would want to preorder.

In the end, though, the community chose to preorders pretty much their entire production for several months, and the reservation queue became essentially pointless.

Yeah, you're right. I failed to remember my Phinneas Taylor Barnum. It is a moral obligation to part suckers from their money...

I don't do preorders. I'll only buy in hand equipment, or at the worst, build on payment from existing parts. Saves me a lot of grief, but also puts me behind the technological curve.

QuestionTime

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Quote from: jimmothy on March 02, 2014, 06:02:39 AM

I truly hope the preorder madness has run its course.

I doubt it. You'll recall that Bitmine offered a choice of a reservation queue and a preorder queue. I always assumed they did it that way because they expected that only very few people would want to preorder.

In the end, though, the community chose to preorders pretty much their entire production for several months, and the reservation queue became essentially pointless.

Bitmain and other manufacturers operating a similar business model wasn't around then.

QuestionTime

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Quote from: matthewh3 on March 02, 2014, 05:12:23 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 01, 2014, 11:08:16 PM

Quote from: matthewh3 on March 01, 2014, 10:52:48 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 02, 2014, 06:02:39 AM

in 2-3 months (...)

Learn the math first.

or maybe you should research stuff before mouthing off - try some of advanced mining calculators which take into consideration difficulty rise - you're looking at jun-july tops, to be in green, after that you will not generate enough to even cover electricity cost.
if you got access to free electricity good for you, but most people dont.

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June. Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs Roll Eyes

I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then. 28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

Why the obsession with process node size? Asicminer 40nm will be twice as efficient as bitmines 28nm chips. Basically means there is much room for improvement/optimization left with 28nm chips before the efficiency has reached its limit.

Proof or go home. Unless they use immersion technology on their hashing chips, they have no chance at all of even just being as efficient as Bitmines chips at 40nm. You should read about Moore's Law and why the race to use smaller fabrication sizes has so many billions spent on it.

Edit: The only reason ASICMiner is using 40nm and not 28nm is to save money on fabrication costs, fact.

Optimization is more important than rushing to a smaller die size.

Bitmine 28nm chips on low power: 0.35w/gh
Asicminer 40nm chips on low power: 0.2w/gh

Although the AM specs are only simulated I think they will end up pretty close.

How do you figure?

Saving money as well as time is why they went with 40nm. Why spend 10 million in nre to make 20nm chips when you can make equally efficient 40nm chips?

Possibly because there are no 20nm foundries in China, 28nm fabrication only just became available these past few weeks.

Roy Badami

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Quote from: jimmothy on March 02, 2014, 06:02:39 AM

I truly hope the preorder madness has run its course.

I doubt it. You'll recall that Bitmine offered a choice of a reservation queue and a preorder queue. I always assumed they did it that way because they expected that only very few people would want to preorder.

In the end, though, the community chose to preorders pretty much their entire production for several months, and the reservation queue became essentially pointless.

matthewh3

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Quote from: matthewh3 on March 02, 2014, 05:12:23 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 01, 2014, 11:08:16 PM

Quote from: matthewh3 on March 01, 2014, 10:52:48 AM

Quote from: matthewh3 on March 02, 2014, 05:12:23 AM

in 2-3 months (...)

Learn the math first.

or maybe you should research stuff before mouthing off - try some of advanced mining calculators which take into consideration difficulty rise - you're looking at jun-july tops, to be in green, after that you will not generate enough to even cover electricity cost.
if you got access to free electricity good for you, but most people dont.

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June. Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs Roll Eyes

I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then. 28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

Why the obsession with process node size? Asicminer 40nm will be twice as efficient as bitmines 28nm chips. Basically means there is much room for improvement/optimization left with 28nm chips before the efficiency has reached its limit.

Proof or go home. Unless they use immersion technology on their hashing chips, they have no chance at all of even just being as efficient as Bitmines chips at 40nm. You should read about Moore's Law and why the race to use smaller fabrication sizes has so many billions spent on it.

Edit: The only reason ASICMiner is using 40nm and not 28nm is to save money on fabrication costs, fact.

Optimization is more important than rushing to a smaller die size.

Bitmine 28nm chips on low power: 0.35w/gh
Asicminer 40nm chips on low power: 0.2w/gh

Although the AM specs are only simulated I think they will end up pretty close.

Saving money as well as time is why they went with 40nm. Why spend 10 million in nre to make 20nm chips when you can make equally efficient 40nm chips?

I have no doubt that eventually smaller die sizes will come out on top, but it is not with these chips(maybe v2). We will probably have 14nm chips by the time a 20/28nm chip is fully optimized.

With all that said it does look like bitmine does have the most efficient chips as of now. Much more impressive than cointerra/hashfast.

Bitfury chips at 55nm can reach almost 0.7W/(GH/s) under-volt'ed. I believe ASICMiner could improve on that at 40nm with under-volt'ed chips. Although 0.2W/(GH/s) sounds similar to the bravado of all the other ASIC manufacturer's claims at simulation. Even using large scale immersion cooling.

jimmothy

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Quote from: jimmothy on March 01, 2014, 11:08:16 PM

Quote from: matthewh3 on March 01, 2014, 10:52:48 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 01, 2014, 11:08:16 PM

in 2-3 months (...)

Learn the math first.

or maybe you should research stuff before mouthing off - try some of advanced mining calculators which take into consideration difficulty rise - you're looking at jun-july tops, to be in green, after that you will not generate enough to even cover electricity cost.
if you got access to free electricity good for you, but most people dont.

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June. Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs Roll Eyes

I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then. 28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

Why the obsession with process node size? Asicminer 40nm will be twice as efficient as bitmines 28nm chips. Basically means there is much room for improvement/optimization left with 28nm chips before the efficiency has reached its limit.

Proof or go home. Unless they use immersion technology on their hashing chips, they have no chance at all of even just being as efficient as Bitmines chips at 40nm. You should read about Moore's Law and why the race to use smaller fabrication sizes has so many billions spent on it.

Edit: The only reason ASICMiner is using 40nm and not 28nm is to save money on fabrication costs, fact.

Optimization is more important than rushing to a smaller process size.

Bitmine 28nm chips on low power: 0.35w/gh
Asicminer 40nm chips on low power: 0.2w/gh

Although the AM specs are only simulated I think they will end up pretty close.

Saving money as well as time is why they went with 40nm. Why spend 10 million in nre to make 20nm chips when you can make equally efficient 40nm chips?

I have no doubt that eventually smaller process sizes will come out on top, but it is not with these chips(maybe v2). We will probably have 14nm chips by the time a 20/28nm chip is fully optimized.

With all that said it does look like bitmine does have the most efficient chips as of now. Much more impressive than cointerra/hashfast.

Biomech

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Activity: 1372

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Anarchy is not chaos.

Quote from: matthewh3 on March 01, 2014, 10:52:48 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on March 01, 2014, 11:08:16 PM

in 2-3 months (...)

Learn the math first.

or maybe you should research stuff before mouthing off - try some of advanced mining calculators which take into consideration difficulty rise - you're looking at jun-july tops, to be in green, after that you will not generate enough to even cover electricity cost.
if you got access to free electricity good for you, but most people dont.

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June. Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs Roll Eyes

I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then. 28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

Why the obsession with process node size? Asicminer 40nm will be twice as efficient as bitmines 28nm chips. Basically means there is much room for improvement/optimization left with 28nm chips before the efficiency has reached its limit.

Fully agree. Right now, the manufacturers are in an arms race, and because time to market is so important, they are taking shortcuts. This in itself is not egregious, but as things slow down and sanity rears its head, things will change.

I think the next iteration of ASIC design will not be aimed so much at lower process mode, but at designing from the ground up for efficiency. It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that most, if not all, of the current bitcoin ASICs are essentially miniaturized FPGA arrays rather than a complete ground-up design. Thus they have a lot of room for reducing redundancies, thus freeing up a lot of silicon real estate. Die shrinks make them bigger and badder fast, but they are not truly optimized. Since the ASIC essentially has one relatively simple task, I suspect that we will soon see chips with much better efficiencies and higher hashrates. But it will probably be a year or more, as that's a much more difficult proposition than what is currently being done.

I truly hope the preorder madness has run its course. Without that perverse incentive, companies will have to focus more on quality and innovation.

matthewh3

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Activity: 1372

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Quote from: matthewh3 on March 01, 2014, 10:52:48 AM

Quote from: matthewh3 on March 01, 2014, 01:17:31 PM

in 2-3 months (...)

Learn the math first.

or maybe you should research stuff before mouthing off - try some of advanced mining calculators which take into consideration difficulty rise - you're looking at jun-july tops, to be in green, after that you will not generate enough to even cover electricity cost.
if you got access to free electricity good for you, but most people dont.

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June. Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs Roll Eyes

I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then. 28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

Why the obsession with process node size? Asicminer 40nm will be twice as efficient as bitmines 28nm chips. Basically means there is much room for improvement/optimization left with 28nm chips before the efficiency has reached its limit.

Proof or go home. Unless they use immersion technology on their hashing chips, they have no chance at all of even just being as efficient as Bitmines chips at 40nm. You should read about Moore's Law and why the race to use smaller fabrication sizes has so many billions spent on it.

Edit: The only reason ASICMiner is using 40nm and not 28nm is to save money on fabrication costs, fact.

SolarSilver

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Miner are important for the verification of transactions as well as creating new coins. They are also important for setting up the price of btc as they are creating it in small decentralised quantities.

The daily BTC 3600 is small compared to all the total volume traded on exchanges. You are flattering yourself if you think you as a miner has much influence on the setting of price. Many miners have to sell, at any price, to cover their expenses

SolarSilver

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How long have you been a bitcoin miner? I've been following it for over three years now. I've seen the changes from CPU

You have been following... but have you been mining? I have and I have had to pay bills like equipment, cooling, electricity with CPU, GPU, FPGA and ASIC. If you are losing money, you can't keep up in this business.

Buying and running a USB stick from ASICminer is all fun but you can't do it with large equipment like 2 TH @ 12k USD from Bitmine

Quote

Edit: Depending on the bitcoin and fiat prices you've paid for your miners. Although 28nm will easily cover its own electricity costs to at least the end of the year, even at current bitcoin prices alone at $0.12kWh. Which is the cost my 2TH/s March fourth week rig pre-order will hash at. Which I bought at ~$800/BTC.

You'll never get your equipment from Bitmine on time. Judging from Batch #1 customers experiences, you'll get your March fourth week rig by mid summer. Good luck by then covering even your electricity and cooling (!!!) if you are in the northern hemisphere.

jimmothy

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Quote from: matthewh3 on March 01, 2014, 10:52:48 AM

Quote from: Bogart on March 01, 2014, 07:45:27 PM

in 2-3 months (...)

Learn the math first.

or maybe you should research stuff before mouthing off - try some of advanced mining calculators which take into consideration difficulty rise - you're looking at jun-july tops, to be in green, after that you will not generate enough to even cover electricity cost.
if you got access to free electricity good for you, but most people dont.

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June. Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs Roll Eyes

I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then. 28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

Why the obsession with process node size? Asicminer 40nm will be twice as efficient as bitmines 28nm chips. Basically means there is much room for improvement/optimization left with 28nm chips before the efficiency has reached its limit.

E

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Quote from: E on February 28, 2014, 08:56:20 PM

It was about 24 hours after my order went to "Complete" that I got tracking numbers.

By what means were the tracking numbers received?

Email, separately from the "Your Order is Complete" email. I posted mine at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5345477

Bogart

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Quote from: E on February 28, 2014, 08:56:20 PM

It was about 24 hours after my order went to "Complete" that I got tracking numbers.

By what means were the tracking numbers received?

QuestionTime

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Quote from: pcfli on February 28, 2014, 09:48:23 PM

As i know, the chip is A1 indeed, they buy it directly from the factory who produce them. bitmine is not the only company who have the right to sell A1, the factory of china who produce it also have the right to sell them, that is what happened now.

Quote from: pcfli on March 01, 2014, 06:41:53 PM

I don't want to spend too much time on that steal issue, i have confidence that my miner are bought from one professional factory, i don't think they can steal so much chips to built more than 1000 unit. We have the deal with factory and they will offer us 600 unit before 10 March, if he cannot hand the miner to us by then, he will pay us a large huge of money for compensate, do you still think that this person built the miner by stealing the chip?

More Desk/Rig delays on the horizon ladies and gentlemen?

Matni

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I paid for mine in fiat (Euros) but that was back when BTC was $125 so would have cost me a lot of BTC. Had I bought BTC at that price, I could have made nearly 10 fold in just a few short months when it peaked above $1000. Yet, here I am, without the hum of my asics in my ears.

Still, I'm high on the list of December batch, and as people are starting to receive machines, it shouldn't be too long now.

Matni

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You would be better off keeping the fiat.

Finnminer

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Quote from: jegersmart on March 01, 2014, 01:49:34 PM

If you dont pay BTC for your miner then.......?

You would be better off buying BTC for the fiat.

jegersmart

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Quote from: Finnminer on March 01, 2014, 01:03:34 PM

Quote from: georgem on March 01, 2014, 08:44:57 AM