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Topic: updated no bounty for pointing out logic mistakes on this thread. (Read 3858 times)

sr. member
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It is fair to assume that news articles would contain that information if it were used at trial.

No, it isn't.
Trials are days after days of evidence.
A news article is a couple of paragraphs. They can't possibly include all of the evidence that was given.
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The document used to arrest or charge the defendant is available online. It states that Hser Ner Moo, the victim, was clutching short black hairs when her body was found and had similar hairs on her abdomen, and then goes on to state that the accused has short black hair. "Additionally, Hser Ner Moo had short black hairs clutched in her right hand ... The defendant has short black hair" This information is from immediately after the body was found and its weight would be pending dna tests. That information is not used again by the prosecution, so it is fair to assume this evidence did not point to mr Met

In which case the prosecution are required to hand that information over to the defence, who can use it at trial.
Was it used at trial by the defence? Was it used by the prosecution, for that matter?
You don't know, because you haven't read the transcript, and don't know what actually happened.
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murray paul an harly, back up a minute.

Is it possible that the child had food in the time before she disappeared and in the one hour window that might paint Met as the accused all of the food completely disappeared to the dame degree it would have after 36 hours?

It makes no sense.

Food does not go from two hours digrsted to 36 hours suddenly. Each type of food contains things that can be measured in the stomache, intestines, blood etc. The medical examiner basically said the child did not die during the time before mr Met was known to be gone, unless the parents were starving her, very unlikely.

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The child did consume juice or something briefly before disappearing and perhaps food too. Regardless, if traces of whastever she consumed are findable Met might be the killer, if no traces of what she consumed can be found he is excluded as a suspect. Was there food residue in her gut? We do not know. It seems negligent of both the medical examiner and the defense team not to have gone into that point. However there is a small indication of time of death aside from the medical examiner's testimony.

(And many other examples)

Have you seen the medical report?
Have you read the trial transcript?
Do you know what the witnesses actually said, not the snippets that have been reported?
How can you possibly say that the ME or lawyer are negligent when you have no idea what actually went on in the court room?


There is contradictory information in news articles but when different reporters from different news companies each report a consistent pattern of sloppy police work and poor work by lawyers,then it probably reflects something.

Normally that they are all just repeating the same story they got from a wire service, or from a shared local stringer.

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I am looking for a way to find the trial transcript at a reasonable price and if it is consistent with the news articles on the case will present a more accurate case to the public, at the expense of the various scum who shortcut justice in Utah's hillbilly heartland.

But still, it is good to see you have an open mind about the case.
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murray paul an harly, back up a minute.

Is it possible that the child had food in the time before she disappeared and in the one hour window that might paint Met as the accused all of the food completely disappeared to the dame degree it would have after 36 hours?

It makes no sense.

Food does not go from two hours digrsted to 36 hours suddenly. Each type of food contains things that can be measured in the stomache, intestines, blood etc. The medical examiner basically said the child did not die during the time before mr Met was known to be gone, unless the parents were starving her, very unlikely.

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The child did consume juice or something briefly before disappearing and perhaps food too. Regardless, if traces of whastever she consumed are findable Met might be the killer, if no traces of what she consumed can be found he is excluded as a suspect. Was there food residue in her gut? We do not know. It seems negligent of both the medical examiner and the defense team not to have gone into that point. However there is a small indication of time of death aside from the medical examiner's testimony.

(And many other examples)

Have you seen the medical report?
Have you read the trial transcript?
Do you know what the witnesses actually said, not the snippets that have been reported?
How can you possibly say that the ME or lawyer are negligent when you have no idea what actually went on in the court room?
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1)The simple fact that he would be innocent if she had any detectable food residue must be excluded, you say, because the medical examiner cannot provide any information based on evidence provided by police or others. That is doubtful. You sound like a police officer trying to confuse two different reasons for excluding evidence in order to justify being granted the right to use both, based on this and other of your comments.

Some evidence must be excluded. The confession, if it were accepted, would allow all police in the future to simply extract confessions of dubious merit without regard for the innocent. This has not worked well in other countries when it has been tried nor in the United States when some douche scum cop decides to play Columbo and solve crimes that way.

This is simply how witness testimony works. A witness cannot say that x police officer told me so and so. This would violate Mr Met's constitutional rights to confront his accuser. Mr Met would not be able to try to find holes in the police officer's story if it is being told by someone else.

The medical examiner would have no reason to know that juice in the girls system could be of any importance.

Again all the medical examiner's job is to determine how the victim died and the time of death, as measured in at a minimum a range of hours prior to when the body was found. Any detail above that is outside the scope of the medical examiner's job.

The medical examiner is a neutral witness. He did not say who he though killed the girl. He only said how she died and when she died. It just so happens that the facts that he presented show that Mr. Met is guilty.

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2) One article specifically says that shortly before she died she was playing outside and would go inside from time to time to drink some juice.

Again not reliant. See above regarding the medical examiner's job

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3) Why would it be likely a child that age in America would likely have food, or its residue, visible somewhere in her system? Honestly, I've answered that. It is common sense.

Again not reliant, see #1. It was actually not testified if the girl had food in her system or not. Just because it was not discussed at trial does not mean that she did not have food in her system. As per above it is not the medical exanimer's job to make that determination.

As you have previously said, Mr Met was likely poor, and refugees like the girl were likely poor, and it would be very well fees-able that  that her family was not able to afford breakfast and that she would eat lunch at a time after she disappeared but regardless does not matter as it was not discussed at trial. If this was something of controversy then the defense attorney should have brought it up. If the defense attorney should have brought it up but didn't then Mr. Met should have appealed on the basis that he had incompetent council (attorney) but he did not.

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4) Buses are unreliable in their timing in every country. In America they may be late but they will never leave early, that is true, but Met had been here 30 days and would not know that.
He would likely understand the bus schedule and when the bus arrives after a few bus trips. It would be very reasonable for him to know when the bus will arrive.

Although your argument is not acceptable, if you were to accept your argument that Mr. Met arrived at the bus station early by 15 minutes he would still have had plenty of time based on the latest time that the girl disappeared. She disappeared at 2 PM at the latest, and Mr Met could have left at 2:39 at the latest minus 15 minutes is 2:34.

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5) Mr Met's alibi was never 'put into question'. It is dry fact that he could not have been at the apartment more than an hour after the child disappeared. If he claims to have left early that is being excluded.

This is correct as his alibi simply says that it is possible that he committed the crime. The medical examiner would have no way of knowing that the time in dispute would come down to 15 or 30 minutes. Regardless, science would not allow him to make a determination of time of death within 30 minutes. Your point only points to him being guilty.

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6) You are basing her time of death on when Met left the apartment despite any other evidence. In other words you are not looking at the evidence, you are simply starting with the jury's opinion and building on that.

Your statement is not correct. The medical examiner gave a range of time as to when the girl died. The range of time included the time that Mr Met was at the apartment. As in every criminal trial the defense has the opportunity to hire it's own expert witness to dispute what the medical examiner testified to and did not do so (the defense did not have an expert testify as to when the girl died, so they either did not hire an expert or they did hire an expert and their expert came to the same conclusion).

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7) Where the girl died and when she died are both in question. As mentioned several times already, a fresh blood stain was found in another part of the apartment but the dna expert never tested it because he thought it was betel nut juice spit. If that stain were shown to contain the victim's dna then mr Met would not have been convicted, even by that simple jury. Was it her dna? We simply do not know because it is one of the many examples of lazy police work in this case. Some people want the police to have all sorys of powers against innocent people but they don't want to force the police to do their actual jobs, specifically doing po.ice work properly.

You are saying there was a blood stain. Was there any evidence to say so? The only testimonial presented said that it looked like what could have been blood but was near a beatlenut juice spit cup and was likely beatlenut juice.

I have not seen any articles that say anything about the defense disputing this fact. Unless the defense attempted to get the DNA evidence excluded because of the beatlejuice there is absolutely no dispute in fact as to what it was. Even if they tried unsuccessfully to get the evidence thrown out the legal conclusion was that there was not issue with not testing this.

If you wish to put this in question then please see my previous post regarding how each piece of evidence may show a 40% chance that he was not guilty, but all the evidence him combined showed a 97%+ chance of being guilty

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8 -  Fine that you would not answer the door at that hour. This was 4 or so guys in an apartment that may have been unlocked, the neighbors would know there were people there, it would be noisy outside, a child had disappeared from another apartment within a certain distance from theirs, the child was known by the people to be friendly with one person there, and it was the only apartment in the entire apartment complex where no one answered the door. You can say the police who knocked on the door did not know this or that, but again it gets back to basic competence. If the cop did not know those things whoever was in charge on site needs to be put out of charge. We need to stop excusing such blatant incompeyence and laziness by cops as well as their other abuses of powe.

You say the door may have been unlocked. There was no testimony that said it was unlocked the day in question. Even if it was unlocked there was only a 1/5 chance that the killer would have picked an area that he controlled (4 roommates plus him is 5 people living in the apartment). My previous example gave a 40% chance of evidence showing he was not guilty this example shows a 20% chance which works against him. Not only that but he "Happened" to be spending the night away from his apartment the same day that a girl was found dead in an area of his apartment, this is really an additional piece of evidence that was not previously listed.

At 4 AM it is likely that people were not congregating outside. If they had answered they would likely spoken to the police and gone back to sleep. I did not ready any articles that said that every other neighbor had answered the door. A non-response to a door knock should not be unusual to the police, this could mean a number of things, that the tenants were not home (out of town), that the apartment was vacant, at work,  or simply sleeping. On a similar note I would doubt that every single apartment was occupied at that time. Obviously the vacant apartments would not have received a response. Additionally it is not illegal to not answer your door when someone knocks.

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) The dna stain that was never tested is not something I conjured up. From a news article:

I stand corrected on point 7, however it was ultimately determined that this was not sufficient to exclude at trial and not sufficient for a mistrial. If the judge had made an error of law in these ruling then it would have been overturned on appeal.

There was still no evidence to show whose blood it was upstairs. The articles do not say that it was the girls nor do they say it was not her's. As a result as per the rules of evidence you cannot assume that it was her blood and you cannot imply that it was anyone's.
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The food issue has nothing to do with being poisoned.

She was playing outside shortly before she disappeared and a news article says she would go inside occasionally to get a drink of something, juice, soda, whatever.

Again the medical examiner cannot rely on other testimony, nor information from others when making his conclusion. If he is able to find both the time and cause of death then he would have no reason to go looking in the stomach for evidence of food.

The medical examiner would have no way of knowing that she would go inside to get a drink.

On that subject even if she did occasionally go inside to get a drink of some sort does not mean that she did that day.

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In addition it seems likely that she had food in the hours before disappearing.

Why do you say that?

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The prosecutor says mr Met killed her within an hour of when she disappeared then took a bus to visit his aunt and uncle. It is known for sure that Met had to leave by a certain time to catch that bus, but he actually probably even left sooner, being a new refugee who didn't speak English.

Again the prosecutor is not providing testimony he is merely trying to get the jury to make a conclusion based on the facts that were presented by witnesses.

Why would he leave sooner? I believe that he had been there for 30 days when he was arrested. I would think that he would be able to navigate his way to the bus station after being someplace for that long. If he was going someplace new then maybe, but the bus station is unlikely.

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If he killed her then it means she died within an hour or so of consuming something and probably within a few hours of consuming a snack or a meal. So if he killed her then she would have easy to find traces of what she consumed. Chemicals from the juice or soda, specific amino acids from a particular meal further down the intestines, a certain level of certain things in her blood etc.

If she died later that day then there would be far less to find. At the outside limit of when the medical person said death could have occured it would have bren very hard for a person to find evidence of the last meal without a lot of tests.

If the medical examiner had found traces of food in her system that would be equivalent in importance to, for example, finding a murder weapon or a picture from the time the crime occured. He did not find any food, evidently. In other words all of the liquid and food the child had consumed previously had already gone far enough that he didn't feel like doing tests to figure out what it was.

Again this is outside the scope of what the medical examiner's job is to do. All that they should be doing is to determine the cause of death and the approximate time of death as defined by clock time. They do not try to determine how much time had passed since they had last ate, especially if poison is not believed to be involved.

Not only that but the medical examiner would likely conduct his investigation shortly after the body was found and many facts would not be available to him at the time of his investigation. His investigation was possibly complete prior to Mr Met's alibi was put into question. He would certainly not know anything about how often she would get juice when she plays outside.

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All that means is that the victim died at least quite a few hours after disappearing, not one hour, as would be if Met had been the murderer.

Your timeline of her dying several hours after she disappeared would not fit in with the other facts. The time between when she disappeared and when Mr Met would have likely left for the bus station is too great for this to make sense. If Mr Met was in his apartment prior to leaving for the bus station then she would have had to be held somewhere else prior to Mr Met leaving. This would mean that whoever the killer was would have had to moved a missing, girl that was likely screaming from one location to Mr Mets apartment. There was blood of hers found in the bathroom so it is likely that she died in the bathroom.

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One article says that the police went through the complex twice knocking on doors. The first time they got a response at every single door in the apartment complex except the one where the body was, and where the roommates were at that time. That is perhaps coincidental and circumstantial, but if the child died at least several hours after disappearing it couldmean she was still alive when someone decided to skip that apartment after knocking a few times. Remember, they are looking for a missing young girl and every other apartment eventually someone came to the door except that one. It might be a little awkward for the cop who skipped that door considering the child was there and she may have been alive.

The father did knock on the door at 7PM the day she disappeared, the roommates said that they had not seen her. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57411054-78/met-hser-moo-ner.html.csp

The same article says that the police knocked on their apartment at 4 AM. If someone knocked at my door that early in the morning I would probably not hear it, and if I did I would probably not answer.

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There is also the issue of the blood stain found where one or more roommates lived. The dna expert chose not to collect a sample because it was near a betel juice spit cup and blood is a similar color to betelnut spit. So there was probably a fresh blood stain upstairs. It could be that one of the roommates accidentally cut himself at the same time the child disappeared. It might be or it might not be. A lot of the evidence in different articles is poorly presented or I am not able to make clear sense of it, but that is how it looks to me.

You are drawing a conclusion from facts that are not there. It is not fair to say that there was blood elsewhere in the apartment where the roommates lived, but rather that parts of the apartment were not checked. It should also be noted that the jury did not read what was said in the articles, they only relied on testimony given by witnesses, information presented poorly in articles does not change the facts nor does it allow facts to be put into question. It would also be possible that what the DNA expert saw was simply beatlnut spit.

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You ask if I have bias in this case. What are you looking for? Do I sympathize with child rapists or murderers? Not if they are guilty, but again, he does not look guilty in fact, he only looks guilty in the jury's decision. Do I sympathize with refugees? In this case yes because I was raised on some stories like this.

It sounds like to me that you are giving too much weight to evidence that may show he is not guilty, and is reaching conclusions based on facts that were not presented but are instead speculation.

The precedent in court cases is to accept the level of detail used when determining the time of death, but instead you wish to want a more precise time of death.

You assume that professionals (most/all of them) make mistake of fact when they testify as an expert witness.

You accept what the lawyers say as testimony of fact. You accept what the defense lawyer says without question wile questioning the detail of what the prosecution says.

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I could ask, do you not see the problem with potentially convicting the wrong person for this crime, aside from the obvious issue of injustice?

I would not wish for someone to be convicted for a crime they did not commit. With that being said I think he did commit the crime.

It really goes back to the fact that it was not testified that other DNA was found under her fingernails. Again if the defense lawyer knows that the answer would be damaging to his case then he would not ask the question.

Even his own attorney said that Mr Mets distrust of the legal system caused him to not admit to the crime.
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The fact that the medical examiner did not identify that, and it seems he did not, indicates either he made a mistake or Met is innocent.

Unless he is specifically asked then about food in her system then the medical examiner would not disclose if there was food in her system or not.

Additionally food being in her system would not help provide a time of death, because, again a medical professional cannot use testimony by others to help form his own opinion.

I am not sure why a medical examiner would even check for food in her system. Based on his other testimony the medical examiner was able to determine the cause of death with a good amount of certainty and it was clear that she didn't die because of something she ate.

I would ask this question again, do you have some kind of bias in this case?
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murray paul an harly, back up a minute.

Is it possible that the child had food in the time before she disappeared and in the one hour window that might paint Met as the accused all of the food completely disappeared to the dame degree it would have after 36 hours?

It makes no sense.

Food does not go from two hours digrsted to 36 hours suddenly. Each type of food contains things that can be measured in the stomache, intestines, blood etc. The medical examiner basically said the child did not die during the time before mr Met was known to be gone, unless the parents were starving her, very unlikely.

Without knowing exactly what the girl ate, and the exact quantities these measurements would be useless.

Another issue is that witnesses cannot rely on testimony from other witnesses. A doctor cannot say "since according to the girls mom the girl had a banana sandwich at 11:30 therefore based on what was in her stomach she had to have died at 3:15" The doctor can only testify to what her can independently scientifically verify.

I did not see anything about the level of anything in her body food related in any of the articles in the girl's body. I believe that the medial examiner testified that his professional opinion was that the girl died within a certain time frame. This time frame is within when Mr Met could have killed her.

You implied that when the girl disappeared she had food in her body that was being digested for two hours. How do you know this? Do you base this on the fact that lunch time is usually noon and she disappeared around 2 PM? Many people eat their meals at varying times throughout the day. It would be very plausible that she ate breakfast at 7 AM and her parents realized she was missing because they were going to eat lunch at 2:15 PM. Or maybe she did not eat breakfast and was about to eat lunch when she disappeared. Regardless this issue was not in dispute at trial so it is not an issue.
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Would you agree that the fact that she could have died 24 hours after disappearing, according to the medical examiner, means that there was not the slightest trace of food anywhere near the top of her digestive tract?

No. I'm not a medical examiner, and am not qualified to say that. I'm pretty sure you aren't either.

As much as I have enjoyed debating the subject with you, ICE, it seems like you have somewhat of a closed mind.

Are you related to any of the parties in this case? Do you have another conflict of interest?

It is important to remember that anything that a lawyer says should not be treated as evidence nor as testimony, the lawyers are simply trying to help the jury reach a particular conclusion based on the facts provided by the witnesses.

I have noticed that you say "I think..." or otherwise give an explanation to evidence against Mr Met. However this appears to be speculation and not backed up by facts. Even when one person quoted an article regarding determining time of death that said any doctor that tried to pinpoint time of death in a range of time less then in one-hour increments would be subject to ridicule, you still said that there would be a way to pinpoint the time of death. Regardless of possible methods of determining this, the time of death was not proven at trial.

It should be noted that a medical professional can only look at the science/medicine of the situation, not what other people have said. The fact that the girl was alive at a certain time is only know due to witness testimony, if the jury believes both witnesses then they can conclude a shorter possible period that the girl could have died.

One thing that I would like to point out is that on the comments on one of the articles, one poster called Mr. Met's attorney a scumbag for defending him, and another posting pointed out that he was just doing his job to see that he received due process. This is not evidence but is something that I wanted to point out.
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Would you agree that the fact that she could have died 24 hours after disappearing, according to the medical examiner, means that there was not the slightest trace of food anywhere near the top of her digestive tract?

No. I'm not a medical examiner, and am not qualified to say that. I'm pretty sure you aren't either.
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So measuring backwards from discovery of the body to death might not yield precise information, or it might, there are other methods. But working forward from last meal to time of death, in this case, probably would have taken it down to ten minutes or so with much more than 90% certainty.

You say, with no scientific experience or knowledge to back it up?

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So the medical expert says only that she died before 7am on April 1, but she could have died as early as 7am on March 31. In other words she could have died 7 hours before she even disappeared? Something very not right with how no one, not even reporters, question nonsensical evidence and testimony.

Because time of death calculations are extremely inaccurate, as we have been telling you.

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It does not prove anything but it is one more indication that the accused is probably innocent and one or more of the roommates may be guilty.

Only to you, not to anyone else.
You seem so desperate for this result to be wrong that you are just making science up as you go along.
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It seems certain to me that with a body found less than a day after death scientists must be able to pinpoint to within 15 minutes or less.

You are massively out on that.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
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"Whatever method is used to calculate the estimated time since death from body temperature, all
the variable factors must be taken into account to modify any basic formula, though this
adjustment is very arbitrary and can only be attempted in the light of previous experience. When
a "favoured" time of death is decided upon this should never be offered to the investigating
authorities as a single point in time. It must be used to construct a "bracket of probability",
giving an earliest and latest time between which the doctor feels that death must have occurred.
The width of this time bracket will depend upon the number and uncertainty of the variable
factors known to the doctor and is likely to be longer the more remote the death was from the
time of examination of the corpse. It is futile mentioning any time in units of less than an hour,
even when the death was quite recent. A medical witness who attempts to determine the time of
death from temperature estimation in minutes or fractions of hours is exposing himself to a
severe challenge to his expertise which may well amount to near ridicule, thus denegrating the
rest of his evidence
". (Ref. 10 at p. 12.)

I'd be very surprised if the estimate could be better than a two hour window.

The child was very small, I believe 7 years, so well under 100 pounds. Heat would have dissipated very quickly and fluctuations in room temperature might have made that method usrlrss.

However the body is full of countless chemicals that are in a constant state of reaction, enzymes etc. With all the research that has been done there is little doubt that there is a quick test to take a sample and determine when the last reaction of a particular time happened.

So you should be able to point us to what that test is then?

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I cannot believe temperature would be used for anything other than a ballpark. Again, it would be the height of incompetence or backwardness if even a college chemistry major could not take time of death down to 15 minutes in a body that is less than a day.

The two hour window you cite would not even be acceptable in a third world country 50 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you believe, it matters what actually is. Point us to a source which backs that up.
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The child was very small, I believe 7 years, so well under 100 pounds. Heat would have dissipated very quickly and fluctuations in room temperature might have made that method usrlrss.

However the body is full of countless chemicals that are in a constant state of reaction, enzymes etc. With all the research that has been done there is little doubt that there is a quick test to take a sample and determine when the last reaction of a particular time happened.

I cannot believe temperature would be used for anything other than a ballpark. Again, it would be the height of incompetence or backwardness if even a college chemistry major could not take time of death down to 15 minutes in a body that is less than a day.

The two hour window you cite would not even be acceptable in a third world country 50 years ago.

Can you give a source to science/technology and/or a specific example of when the time of death could be measured accurately within 15 minutes when the death was not observed by someone?
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It seems certain to me that with a body found less than a day after death scientists must be able to pinpoint to within 15 minutes or less.

You are massively out on that.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
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"Whatever method is used to calculate the estimated time since death from body temperature, all
the variable factors must be taken into account to modify any basic formula, though this
adjustment is very arbitrary and can only be attempted in the light of previous experience. When
a "favoured" time of death is decided upon this should never be offered to the investigating
authorities as a single point in time. It must be used to construct a "bracket of probability",
giving an earliest and latest time between which the doctor feels that death must have occurred.
The width of this time bracket will depend upon the number and uncertainty of the variable
factors known to the doctor and is likely to be longer the more remote the death was from the
time of examination of the corpse. It is futile mentioning any time in units of less than an hour,
even when the death was quite recent. A medical witness who attempts to determine the time of
death from temperature estimation in minutes or fractions of hours is exposing himself to a
severe challenge to his expertise which may well amount to near ridicule, thus denegrating the
rest of his evidence
". (Ref. 10 at p. 12.)

I'd be very surprised if the estimate could be better than a two hour window.
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1) As for him accepting a plea to buy time so someone could look for evidence, there is no one. He arrived in the country 30 days before the crime, had an aunt and uncle, maybe other relatives, probably all refugees with limited resources. I made the post because it was an interesting topic and I have some spare time at the moment. Read the post on the other thread about how many innocent people get sent to prison. Most have better English skills and more resources than him.

Yes he had very few relatives/family in the country, however even without someone trying to prove his innocence, if he can see that he is going to be convicted (or there is a good chance of such) it is best to take a plea deal to get a lesser sentence.

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2) By real evidence, I mean something that convinces me, not something that convinced a jury. Your argument reminds me of the famous logic proof from centuries ago where a fellow proved that god exists by saying something circular that could not be refuted. The simple fact of innocent people in prison cancels your standard of "guilty if found guilty under the law".


I figured that would not work for you. However the logic is true. If he somehow got his sentence reduced and was released on parole and subsequently was re-arrested and charged with another serious crime when using sentencing guidelines that take into account prior crimes, the conviction (and lack of a pardon and overturn by higher court) he would be sentenced in the other crime as if he killed the girl

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3) As for the dna, the crucial point is that it was microscopic skin cells. That does not seem to match having scratched him in self defense. It might match horsing around though, which witnesses saw, the person did play with local children. Your point about looking for dna from other people, the child's parents, siblings, etc is excellent. If the transcript, or any news article, shows that she had dna from the accused but not from her family or friends that would be worth the 200 hbn. If I find that info I will try to remember this post. There might still be a lingering suspicion but that might be a dealbreaker.   


Let me ask you this: If you were to scratch yourself in a violent way (similar to how someone would scratch you in self defense) could you see any of your skin without a microscope? If not, then do you think a little 7 year old could get skin that could be seen without a microscope?

Do you have anything to show the difference between the levels of DNA from self defense and from just "horsing around"?

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from http://www.athleta.net/2012/04/04/intro-to-self-defense-for-women/ (6th paragraph)
 Fingernails make a great tool for scratching face and eyes and if it comes to it, skin cells under your nails can become key DNA evidence.

The above article says that skins cells are used as DNA evidence.

In regards to was it asked if other DNA was found under the girl's fingernails. The witness would have had to have tested for all DNA. If the results would show that there was other DNA that might exonerate the Mr. Mets then it must have been given to the defense attorney. The results that show Mr Mets's DNA under her fingernails must have been given to the defense attorney. At trial the prosecution is not going to ask questions that could possibly damage their case, that is simply not how court cases work. If there is evidence that could help the defense then it must be given to the defense attorney. If the defense attorney knew the results and knew that there was no other DNA found, then why would he ask that question? The fact that it was not asked by the defense would show that there was not additional DNA.

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4) The testimony of the nurse, as to the qualities of Mr Met's injuries I dismiss based on my familiarity with the English language. That witness seems to be giving evidence that she herself questions. I understand that it is trial evidence but I would not accept that particular testimony without additional proof.

This nurse in this situation is a neutral and does not have a stake in the outcome. The same should be true for other expert witnesses. If a witness says something that is a lie then they could be convicted of perjury. This establishes that she does not have an incentive to testify against Mr Mets, and does have an incentive to tell the truth.

The article does not say specifically what her qualifications are above the fact that she is a registered nurse 
however you would not be able to testify if you are not qualified to testify about what you are testifying about.

The fact is that she did not see Mr Mets get scratched so she does not know for sure what happened to him. She says that they are too small to be from an adult. They could be from a child. There are not many other possibilities as to where the scratches came from if they were not from an adult. There would not be any possibilities that they could reasonably come from.

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5) The timeline really is important. The prosecutor indicated the child may have been alive when Met left. Considering the injuries, strangulation, blunt force etc, it seems the reason he could not say mr Met left the child dead was because the time of death fell outside when Met was there.

Time of death is something that is more of an art then a science. There are a number of things that can affect what "time of death" is calculated to be. My understanding of how to determine this is by taking the temperature of the body when it is found, then using the room temperature to make a calculation. I believe that changes in temperature can affect this as well. This is my understanding from watching CSI so it may not be 100% accurate but I think the general principle is correct. I also believe that "time of death" is usually presented as a range of time, sometimes several hours. Giving the estimated time of death would likely not affect the case either way. I would not be surprised if the "time of death" would be estimated to include a period prior to when she was last seen by her parents.

6 - I was just attempting to counter what I anticipated to be your counter points.

My main point for this was that if evidence is not presented that there was forced entry, then you would need to assume that there was not. Having a dead body (of a person who was murdered) found in a place that you are in control and are in possession of is serious evidence against you. That fact alone would not be able to secure a conviction but a smaller amount of additional evidence would need to be presented in order to prove that you are the killer.

I would say that your counter points about that his DNA could just be horseplay would be stronger if her body was not found in a place that he controls and is in possession of.

I think it would be fair to say that it was either Mr Mets or one of his roommates that killed the girl (lack of evidence of forced entry). The scratches, the DNA, the timeline, the confession can all be somewhat explained. Lets say for example that if each (taken separately) of the above evidence was all the evidence against him there would be a 40% chance that he is Innocent (very far below beyond a reasonable doubt). I think that is giving him a lot of credit but hear me out.

Based on that logic if the scratches is the only evidence against him then there is a 40% chance that he did not kill her.

If the scratches and the DNA is the only evidence against him then there is a 16% chance that he is innocent (.4 * .4 =.16).

If the scratches, the DNA and the timeline is the only evidence against him then there is a 6.4% chance that he did not kill her

If you take all of the evidence into consideration then there is only a 2.56% chance that he did not actually commit the crime in question.

Again I think that 40% is giving him too much credit. I think a more reasonable amount of doubt would be 15-25% for each piece of evidence. Using 25% then the chances of his innocence are: 25%, 6.25%, 1.5625%, and ~0.4% respectively.
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Activity: 266
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Updated. The original bounty on this thread is finished.
Now I'll pay 20 hbn to each person who is first to bring to my attention any error of fact I made in my posts.
I know I've made several, incuding the number of roommates and the fact that Met's shower area may not have been a common area used by all roommates. The first post that points out an error is paid.

In addition there is still a 200hbn bounty for anyone who finds real evidence in any of the news articles that shows Met is. guilty. There is a fairly high standard for this proof, it cannot just be "it seems possible he might have done it". The main proof I am aware of is posted on the bounty thread at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/5-hobonickels-instabounty-easy-money-645898   The bounty is for adding something meaningful to the discussion, not for whining about the standard of proof the bounty requires.


HBN: ExDpAS2NuMw9MNWPAyEqtZ4Y6gnXBhX6cx Lets see if I can convince you, or at least add something that shows Mr. Met is guilty

Per http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_05_020200.htm The statute for aggravated murder is (the relevant line in the statue)
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76-5-202.   Aggravated murder.
            (1) Criminal homicide constitutes aggravated murder if the actor intentionally or knowingly causes the death of another under any of the following circumstances:

The above statute says that a person is guilty of aggravated murder if that someone has killed someone (criminal homicide) under certain circumstances

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http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=29885357

Ultimately, a jury in January found him guilty of aggravated murder and kidnapping, first-degree felonies, in the death of the Myanmarese refugee girl.


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http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57939886-78/met-moo-hser-ner.html.csp

"My greatest concern, whether it’s called justice or not, is that for these six years, as reflected in the pre-sentence report and as spoken here today in court, is Mr. Met has not expressed any responsibility, any remorse," Atherton said. "He’s not required to. ... But he has been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt

The above articles say that  a jury found him guilty of aggravated murder. In order to be guilty of aggravated murder you must have killed someone. In order for a jury to find someone guilty of a crime, they must hear evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty of such crime.

When a jury finds a defendant guilty of a crime then it is determined beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant in fact committed the crime (in this case kill the girl) until the defendant is either pardoned or a higher court reverses the verdict (both are very rare).

I understand this is probably not what you are looking for, however in the eyes of the law the guilty verdict does prove that Mr Met killed the girl.

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http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57399926-78/met-hser-moo-ner.html.csp

Samples taken from under the fingernails of the slain girl, 7-year-old Hser Ner Moo, matched a genetic profile shared by Met.

***Later in the article***

The defense has suggested Met’s clothing was stained well before Hser Ner Moo disappeared, during a game of elephant ride, in which Met would carry the child and her friend atop his back.

Met’s lawyers have said the skin cells collected from under Hser Ner Moo’s fingernails were also a result of such play, wherein the girl may have accidentally scratched Met’s skin.

"Is it possible if someone were giving a child a ride on their back and the child’s nose began to bleed that you would end up with four spots of blood in a line like this?" West asked.

"I can’t say that it’s not, because it could be possible," Grundy said.

I have more from this article but would like to discuss these quotes first.

As previously discussed in this thread Mr Met's DNA was found under the girl's fingernails. The defance offers the explanation that this is from Mr Met giving the girl elephant rides. The witness says that it could have been. This alone is not a new detail.

It should be noted that any evidence that could help a defendant's case will be given to the defendant's attorney prior to trial. With that point being said, it is important that his attorney did not ask if there was any other DNA under the girls fingernails. If other DNA had been found then his attorney would have known about it.

If there was other DNA then his attorney would have asked as it would help show that he is innocent. If there was not other DNA then he would not want to ask this question as it would help the prosecution in this case.   I would infer based on this that there was not other DNA found under the girl's fingernails (I was not able to find an article that says this specifically, nor court transcripts for this case).

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http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57399926-78/met-hser-moo-ner.html.csp

Holli Barbera, a registered nurse, was called to examine Esar Met’s body for signs that a sexual assault may have taken place after Met was arrested on April 1, 2008.

She testified Wednesday that Met’s skin showed signs of redness and scratches. His right shoulder was bruised, marks lined his legs.

"These marks are much smaller than I would expect to see if it were an adult scratch," Barbera testified. "It could be [from a child]."

Defense attorneys asked whether he could have suffered these injuries from being handled roughly by the officers who arrested him.

Some, Barbera said, could have. The others, defense attorneys implied, may have been caused by Met himself.

I do not believe this has been discussed so far.

Mr. Met had scratches and marks on his body that were consistent with being from a child. She said they were smaller from what would come from an adult. The nurse admits that some of the scratches could be from the police. This means that at least one of the scratches would have likely come from a child. This means that Mr. Met likely had scratch(es) and mark(s) from a child.

Mr Met's attorneys say that some of them came from himself but do not offer any evidence to back this up and this cannot be considered fact.

I can't find it anymore but I did see a timeline that said she was last seen between 130 PM and 2 PM and that the latest Mr Met could have caught the bus was 2:39 PM.

It should also be noted that most crimes do not have a "smoking gun" that when looked at alone would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a certain person committed a crime. A jury must take all pieces of evidence to reach a conclusion.


Based on the fact that the timeline matches him being able to commit the crime (no facts/evidence to prove that he would not be able to commit the crime because of time limitations), his DNA under her fingernails (a weak argument to say that this DNA was not the result of the crime in question), scratches and marks (at least one) from a child was on him the day after the crime (when he was arrested), no evidence presented that shows someone else's DNA under her fingernails, and the location the body was found (in Mr Met's bathroom) would leave me and a reasonable person to believe that he did in fact kill the girl.

The two facts that show his guilt are the DNA and the scratches when put together. His scratches show that a child scratched him (duh) and his DNA under her fingernails put them together at the time of the crime.

You could argue that someone had broken into Mr. Met's apartment and put the body there, however there was not evidence that supported this, and would be speculation and cannot be treated as fact.

sr. member
Activity: 266
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Do you think he should have accepted a plea even if he is innocent of the crime, just to serve less time?

From http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=29885357

Met addressed the court prior to being sentenced, and denied having anything to do with the little girl's death.

"I didn't kill this girl," Met repeated several times. "At the time the girl was dead in the apartment, I wasn't there. ... This is a girl I used to play with. I loved her and she loved me.

"I didn't kill that girl. I don't know who killed that girl," he said.

That's the last bounty on this thread unless someone can show solid evidence of his guilt that makes me drop the issue. I will still pay the people on this thread who have already posted, if they want a small amount of hbn, vokain, murraypaul, etc, each was helpful even if proof of guilt was not found.

Should he accept a plea even if he is innocent of the crime? Yes he absolutely should. By accepting a plea deal he will make his worse case scenario much more in his favor.

In the early stages of his sentence he can (or more likely someone on his behalf) can try to find evidence of his innocence and/or evidence of someone else's guilt. Once enough of this is found then he can appeal his sentence/guilty plea and request to have his case reopened and get a new trial with this evidence (or if someone else is convicted then the prosecutor can just not recharge him).

If there is enough evidence to possibly convict you then it is advisable to try to get some kind of plea deal. 
sr. member
Activity: 266
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A fellow recently was sentenced to life in prison without the chance of parole for an extremely violent murder of a young child. The bounty is for anyone who can explain the evidence against this person in a way that will help me understand that he is guilty beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt.

I will pay the bounty to the best answer and will pay it to someone even if no one can find a reasonable answer. A hundred hobonickels isn't much, about ten us dollars, not sure how much it is in european pesos or any others.

The person is Esar Met and here is a start on looking for the evidence that convinced the judge and jury he was guilty.

He is a Burmese refuggee who speaks no English. He was living with three other refugees in Utah. He was friendly with a neighbor's child, who was later violently murdered. The forensic people said the violence of the attack was extreme.

He used to give piggyback rides to the victim and other children, called 'elephant rides'by Burmese. The victim had a cut on her finger at some point, the parent's of the victim said, and it seems likely some of the blood from this cut got on the back of Mr Met's jacket.

Additionally there were microscopic traces of dna from Mr Met under the fingernails of the child. This seems more consistent with horseplay than violence. Most people will have microscopic traces of dna under their nails of people they have been in close physical contact with.



Other evidence seems even weaker, but as I said, anyone who simply trirs to help me understand the evidence that convinced the judge and jury is eligible for the bounty.

HBN: ExDpAS2NuMw9MNWPAyEqtZ4Y6gnXBhX6cx (in case you feel that my response is worth your bounty.

I had just downloaded the hobonickels client and downloaded the blockchain (it took a long time) and it looks like this is a pretty cool coin.

It sounds like this person was convicted on a lot of circumstantial evidence. The prosecutor likely wanted to get a conviction from someone.

Although he does have an explanation as to some of the evidence against him, this explanation is flimsy.

The fact that he does not speak English likely played a role in his conviction as he may have given up certain rights and/or provided evidence against himself when not understanding fully what he was doing and that he was not obligated to do so.

The massive case load that public defenders have likely did not help his situation. Even though his client was facing life in prison the public defender probably did not have or invest sufficient time to look for evidence that would help his client's case. He probably also did not invest sufficient time to research witnesses against his client to attempt to find holes in their stories/explanation of evidence.

I am personally surprised that he did not receive (or accept) some kind of plea deal that would result in him serving a lesser sentence based on the amount of evidence against him.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Would you mind pointing out the single strongest piece of evidence?

Why, so you can ignore it again?
It doesn't seem like repeating the same information again and again is really going to get us anywhere.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Actually it is not even an issue of reasonable doubt. There is not a single piece of evidence against Mr Met that is substantial, and there are numerous pieces of evidence that point away from him.

If you like, point to the single strongest piece of evidence and I will try to look at it again objectively.

You don't seem able to look at it objectively.
Objectively, there is enough evidence for it to be reasonable for a jury to convict.
Everyone has agreed with that, except for you.
When the evidence is listed for you, you respond with small issues which don't undermine it.
You really really want someone to tell you that a massive injustice was done, but no one is.
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