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Topic: User got voted into DT1 by sockpuppets - page 4. (Read 2792 times)

legendary
Activity: 2100
Merit: 1167
MY RED TRUST LEFT BY SCUMBAGS - READ MY SIG
April 06, 2019, 08:26:18 PM
#14


10 merit is difficult enough IMO. I don't want it to be too difficult. Any other suggestions? We could just keep an eye on it and respond reactively to cases like this.


Edit:



Perhaps some kind of additional RANK or ACTIVITY requirement could help? It would increase the cost of failure considerably.  I mean who knows who they can trust after being here 5 mins? having a broad knowledge of a lot of peoples pasts and their relationships with others here is going to put you in a far better position to start vouching for how trustworthy they are isn't it?

Trust (real trust) is something very important to the board. Not just for trading but also for even more important reasons that I won't go off topic with now.

These accounts if you decide require nuking..  are not substantial loss since they are mostly new and can be replaced in a short amount of time. You can easily buy merits for around 4 bucks ( so I have heard) even if you do not have the required alts to gradually power them up. Or friends whom are merit sources.

I would have thought a DT1 would need to have years of history to look over and analyse to install any real trust in those people and of course the cost of losing something that takes a minimum of 4- 5years to replace is quite a risk to play around with. Perhaps also some trading experience? I mean it may be slightly more manual but it is better that DT1 actually represents trust. With perhaps review every 3 months and any untrustworthy actions mean immediate removal. Gradual careful additions may be added.

There seemed to be far LESS trouble and the board seemed to provide a far more optimal environment in many ways when you just picked the DT1 that you were familiar with and trusted yourself.

On top of this you may not have considered the psychological impact of allowing those KNOWN to have committed openly very untrustworthy actions to actually punish others for lesser evils is going to fuel persons to really rebel against the system that allows that to take place. Causing a lot of friction and motivate people to game the systems and not use them in the way that you have stated they should be used.

In some instances (like an anonymous forum) I think broadly centralised control works better than experimenting with decentralised control. Especially as generally it will allow for more consistent and fairer treatment of all members. This will lead to less friction, easier/less appeals since there will be more accountability.

So in short I think some mix of activity and trading history (manual analysis) with some merit requirement mixed in could make it harder to game and make the cost of failure far higher. But even then I think DT1 should really be a solid and observably trustworthy bunch that really denotes TRUST. Any observable dirt REAL DIRT in financial terms of a DT1 invalidates them to most of the board. This will always come up and make the entire system look corrupt and misleading when they dish scam tags on anyone else.

These are my honest tips for improving the system. I would like to see the same thing as you. Free of scammers and ico pumpers, sig spammers without leaving free speech vulnerable . A real meritocracy.

I could be as simple though as leaving it how it is and offering kudos to anyone that finds any financially motivated untrustworthy deeds committed by anyone on dt1 and instantly blacklisting them. Keeping then a fresh batch of observably spotless DT1.

If those people went to all that trouble to install someone (many others do trust)  who observably didn't trust 2 persons that are not spotless ? does this not tell you something theymos?

anyway those are my ideas to help get trust back into the trust system. If this is off topic here then do not delete it since theymos asked for ways to improve it, simply let me know and I will delete it and copy it to another thread.








Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
April 06, 2019, 07:36:04 PM
#13
Require at least one of the 10 merits to be earned in the last N days (30? 90?)

Excellent idea!

Or, have merit decay as it ages, but that might require decimals.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
April 06, 2019, 06:57:11 PM
#12
10 merit is difficult enough IMO. I don't want it to be too difficult. Any other suggestions? We could just keep an eye on it and respond reactively to cases like this.

KYC

Seriously though, if you could add what you just did (I assume some query based on IPs and whatnot) to your monthly DT1 process maybe that would help expose these shenanigans?

I don't know what else we can do without tightening the requirements. Maybe some minor tweaks could be done without disenfranchising legitimate users. E.g. require at least one of the 10 merits to be earned in the last N days (30? 90?) so that this potential exploit would have an ongoing cost.
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
April 06, 2019, 06:40:20 PM
#11
How did they get 10 merit? (I don't have time to look into this right now.)

Merit received by Pablojob from January 24, 2018 until April 05, 2019 (source)

Fri Jul 20 13:50:02 2018: 6 from Nevis (history)for Re: In South Korea, the Crypto Currency Boom Hits Economy system.
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Merit received by PingGermoco from January 24, 2018 until April 05, 2019 (source)

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[Nevis has sent merit to the following people:
chickinini
TinaMoran
NilaMutac
poetmo
kantotinio
LillyBogan

At least three of the above were part of those "colluding with Russia" on ]this thread, although their trust lists appear to have since been changed. Except for one of them, they all have exactly 10 merit.

ace4549 also has sent merit to 4 of the 6 alts, although he has sent a lot of merit:

After some investigation, this is a circle of 58 accounts, most of which have 10+ merit. IDs:
[...]

They're all now excluded from the DT selection process, so if the goal was to manipulate DT, someone blew ~580 sMerit in order to ultimately fail doing so.
Perhaps you could remove their sMerit for those who are not already banned. In theory, they can use the ~580 merit they received, and send it to 29 additional accounts to have 29 other accounts have 10 merit.

edit2:
I would also point out that I received 200 sMerit when the merit system was introduced (IIRC), and someone abusing that merit could turn that into ~400 merit, so it would not take a lot for someone to be able to get 580 merit to various alts.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2272
April 06, 2019, 06:27:55 PM
#10
How did they get 10 merit? (I don't have time to look into this right now.)
I know. Check this thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ac2eugenio-maybe-alts-5114184
Bunch of banned senior/hero members ranked up farm and I don't think 58 accounts is correct number.
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
April 06, 2019, 05:56:58 PM
#9
I see no particular evidence of Bazinga442 being an alt, but the other six five (edit: zin-zang may not be part of this circle) are all the same person. They will be blacklisted from the DT selection system in the future. Haven't decided whether this abuse warrants a forum ban.

How did they get 10 merit? (I don't have time to look into this right now.)

10 merit is difficult enough IMO. I don't want it to be too difficult. Any other suggestions? We could just keep an eye on it and respond reactively to cases like this.


Edit:

After some investigation, this is a circle of 58 accounts, most of which have 10+ merit. IDs:
2061631
1658865
1609508
1586656
1586585
1586551
1586457
1586404
1575750
1575704
1325707
1325699
1325681
1325665
1325651
1325633
1325624
1325612
1312864
1312835
1312750
1312730
1312682
1312669
1312215
1311924
1311852
1311798
1311776
1311740
1311716
1311700
1311664
1311649
1311624
1311608
1290714
1290532
1289915
1260476
1260451
1247231
1247213
1247203
1247193
1240919
1240872
1240853
1240832
1240198
1237158
1237123
1236944
1236879
1236860
1231268
1231252
1586551

They're all now excluded from the DT selection process, so if the goal was to manipulate DT, someone blew ~580 sMerit in order to ultimately fail doing so.
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
April 06, 2019, 04:58:54 PM
#8
You're right, that's the reason of the shared trust list created by H8bussesNbicycles, and I'm not after users who used that list, I'm only after users who I suspect to be alts.
The votes are limited, so except for  Bazinga442, who has two, the rest only have one vote. These people as a whole, only have the ability to get one person on DT1, and they will need help.

This falls outside of the criteria that theymos previously said will cause him to blacklist people -- I believe he said he will blacklist in cases in which you are putting your own alts on DT1, but that is likely not the case here. All of these people did receive merit (although under suspicious circumstances), which does entitle them to vote, although not multiple times for a single person as appears to be the case here.

I think it is a very bad idea to mix the merit system with the trust system. This person for example should have 4 "250" votes, and 100 "10" votes, based on this:
if they have decent posts, by all means, give them the 250 or 500 merit that they need to rank-up.
as I believe that person deserves to be legendary, even though I don't know him, or have any reason to trust or not trust him one way or another.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1757
April 06, 2019, 04:53:42 PM
#7
Rmcdermott927 Distrusts:
1. ~TMAN (Trust: 243: -0 / +25) (DT1! (18) 879 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. ~Lauda (Trust: 300: -0 / +31) (DT1! (23) 868 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
No, why would I care about that?
Those sockpuppets (you and I presume) included anyone who excluded Lauda from their trust list, and excluded anyone who included lauda on their trust lists.

The reason why he is included on their trust lists is because he excluded lauda and TMAN


Quote
Although it seems the Rmcdermott927 exclusion was somewhat resolved as of the last trust list dump.
I don't really follow the Collectibles-thread, but looking back a few months he did have more exclusions. Either way, the reason for this topic is clearly stated, no need for speculation Smiley
That quote was referring to different research I was planning on doing.

I cannot believe I am writing this, but I agree with QuickSeller.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
April 06, 2019, 04:52:27 PM
#6
Perhaps 10 merits is too low. Even if theymos could fix this one issue by blacklisting those sockpuppets from voting it's still way too easy for someone else to attempt it.

Increasing the merit requirement (or the required number of votes) would also postpone bumping up against the 100-member limit, which seems inevitable in a couple of months. It would be quite ridiculous if due to the limit some sort of random selection would end up removing some legitimate members from DT1 while keeping some elected by sockpuppets.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
April 06, 2019, 04:49:42 PM
#5
No, why would I care about that?
Those sockpuppets (you and I presume) included anyone who excluded Lauda from their trust list, and excluded anyone who included lauda on their trust lists.
Sorry, I misread your previous comment. Time to sleep Smiley

You're right, that's the reason of the shared trust list created by H8bussesNbicycles, and I'm not after users who used that list, I'm only after users who I suspect to be alts.
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
April 06, 2019, 04:45:19 PM
#4
Rmcdermott927 Distrusts:
1. ~TMAN (Trust: 243: -0 / +25) (DT1! (18) 879 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. ~Lauda (Trust: 300: -0 / +31) (DT1! (23) 868 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
No, why would I care about that?
Those sockpuppets (you and I presume) included anyone who excluded Lauda from their trust list, and excluded anyone who included lauda on their trust lists.

The reason why he is included on their trust lists is because he excluded lauda and TMAN


Quote
Although it seems the Rmcdermott927 exclusion was somewhat resolved as of the last trust list dump.
I don't really follow the Collectibles-thread, but looking back a few months he did have more exclusions. Either way, the reason for this topic is clearly stated, no need for speculation Smiley
That quote was referring to different research I was planning on doing.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
April 06, 2019, 04:42:46 PM
#3
Rmcdermott927 Distrusts:
1. ~TMAN (Trust: 243: -0 / +25) (DT1! (18) 879 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. ~Lauda (Trust: 300: -0 / +31) (DT1! (23) 868 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
No, why would I care about that?
I noticed this case on http://loyce.club/trust/ranking/:
Code:
118. Rmcdermott927 (Trust: 209: -0 / +22) (DT1! (1) 31 Merit earned) is included by 2 users with 250+ earned Merit and 5 users with 10-249 earned Merit.
Rmcdermott927 was ranked too low to get on DT1. This turned out to be my misinterpretation of the requirements, but it got my attention anyway when I saw the votes from red-trusted Newbies.

Quote
Although it seems the Rmcdermott927 exclusion was somewhat resolved as of the last trust list dump.
I don't really follow the Collectibles-thread, but looking back a few months he did have more exclusions. Either way, the reason for this topic is clearly stated, no need for speculation Smiley
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
April 06, 2019, 04:39:52 PM
#2
I am guessing this is because:


Rmcdermott927 Distrusts:
1. ~TMAN (Trust: 243: -0 / +25) (DT1! (18) 879 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. ~Lauda (Trust: 300: -0 / +31) (DT1! (23) 868 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

I was actually planning on doing some research starting at Rmcdermott927, not because of him being included into DT1, but rather because of what I was here, as it seems there might be some evidence some people are being excluded specifically because of who they have on their trust list, specifically, I was going to look into a group of people potentially excluding anyone who trusts (via their trust list) who is critical of said group. Although it seems the Rmcdermott927 exclusion was somewhat resolved as of the last trust list dump.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
April 06, 2019, 04:27:55 PM
#1
I think Rmcdermott927 is the first user who's been voted into DT1 with the help of red-trusted Newbies that are likely alt-accounts.



Let me emphasize that I have nothing against Rmcdermott927, who's #36 Most Trusted on BPIP.
This topic is about the system, the user is just a coincidence. I have no reason to believe Rmcdermott927 is responsible for creating the sockpuppets.




DT1 requirements (incomplete but relevant items of the list):
- You must have at least 10 people directly trusting you each with an earned merit of at least 10, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.
 - You must have at least 2 people directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 250, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.

Rmcdermott927 was added to DT1 3 days ago. As of this morning, Rmcdermott927 is trusted by these users:
Unlike the previous policy, I will not generally be trying to cultivate a good list; that will be left to the DT1 members themselves. However, I reserve the right to remove you and blacklist you from future selection if you engage in egregious and obvious abuse, or if multiple known alt accounts could be selected.
Although I don't think there's much harm done here by voting Rmcdermott927 into DT1, it's a proof of concept of DT1-voting using alts and would set a bad precedent to let it happen, so I'm asking theymos to look into this.
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