This discussion is completely pointless since it simply does not apply to Bitcoin. A "certificate of membership" is a term applied to shareholders. That simply does not apply to bitcoin and so the entire thing is invalid. You "earn" bitcoin through mining (just like you do with gold). Bitcoin has always been digital "cash" and nothing more than that. Sure people run around saying they're "investing" in it etc but that has nothing to do with how it comes to be created. Bitcoin and gold are backed by nothing. They come from "nothing" but the value people give it. Stocks come from assets of a company. Completely different things.
Now, if you want to apply the "fraud" claim etc to all the other coins out there that have done IPOs and the like, then you would probably be right as in that case the "company" is holding the "asset" and trading it for money. But when it comes to bitcoin and all the others that never did that sort of thing, the video and opinion is completely wrong.
Topic: [VIDEO]The Nasty Secret of Bitcoin Exposed (Read 675 times)
The video explains how Bitcoin turns your ownership into membership, which is exactly how classical fraudulent schemes operate.
https://youtu.be/C5RplXYwCyY
Seriously! Other day I saw the same with just a different title.https://youtu.be/C5RplXYwCyY
In the below 6-minute video, it is explained why Bitcoin is a fraud where a gift record is falsely presented to the public as a market item.
https://youtu.be/LlPwmW4XphE
https://youtu.be/LlPwmW4XphE
What is your problem? Same video in another post:
WTF!
If you think your fiat is better than bitcoin then go and give your ass to the FED so that they can put a green dildo in your ass. Or you are getting paid by Ver, Craig and co to spread nonsense about Bitcoin. Get the fuck out of the forum you moron.
Yeah, I know where you are coming from and I agree. So FIAT, with its debt-ridden inflation and is only an I.O .U note is not a scam? Our Fiat money is only worth anything because we are forced to trust it. DIAMONDS, WHICH ARE JUST A PIECE OF ROCK, are only worth tons because it is marketed that way. So why is Bitcoin more of a fraud than these items I just mentioned? Whoever made this stupid video has an agenda or was paid by some whale to bring down the price of Bitcoin so noobs can sell it lol.
At least Bitcoin has a limited supply unlike the federal reserve pumping out dollars every time the banks want a bailout which the Taxpayers pay for and everyone else pays for because every time money is printed, we lose purchasing power. The biggest scam of all and Ponzi is FIAT. I'd rather park my money in Bitcoin than Fiat any day. The video explains how Bitcoin turns your ownership into membership, which is exactly how classical fraudulent schemes operate.
https://youtu.be/dVIXcnbpRMg
There’s nothing I haven’t seen people say about Bitcoin. I don’t really know what’s this guy is trying and I didn’t even stress myself with watching the video to the end, it doesn’t make sense for me to be watching because I’m still not going to believe whatever he has to say, as long as it’s not something good about Bitcoin but only to label it a scam.https://youtu.be/dVIXcnbpRMg
First I have seen people say that Bitcoin Ponzi, that was the popular and I have also seen others try to explain it in other ways, all they are doing is just to make believe that Bitcoin is scam. So, I don’t have that time.
Saying "Bitcoin is a digital gold" is like saying "Bitcoin is a digital car, or digital apple or digital pizza ...". Hence, just playing rhetorical games.
I never said digital gold. It is you who is playing games.
When you purchase Euro you expect to spend it since you cannot eat it or drink it.
Actually:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market
Regardless, when you "purchase" Bitcoin (if you aren't trying to profit from the fluctuations in exchange rates) you expect to spend it.
Financial transaction or paying with an instrument is not replying an instrument. I can pay you in bonds, stocks or dollars but bond, stock or dollar issuer is the one who repays these instruments. In bitcoin, its issuers don't repay it, which is why this repayment is possible only from funds of other bitcoin investors. To put it another way. Bitcoin is worthless since all value is brought by new investors. Just like in all ponzi-like schemes.
And there you go once again talking in circles.
Irrelevant points. In the bitcoin scheme, investors are paid from funds that came from the pockets of other bitcoin investors. That's Ponzi-like.
Not necessarily, it's also "barter-system-like". It is only Ponzi-like if the funds that have to be paid to the inverstors are necessarily higher (or of more value, if they're non-monetary) than the investments of the investors. According to your definition, every barter system (LETS) which is not backed by fiat is also a Ponzi (If you should claim that e.g. time banks are different because there seems to be a guarantee for a certain value measured in time - they aren't, because nobody is forced to accept the time bank currency, so exactly the same risks apply as in Bitcoin.)Quote
Scheme organizers are miners. They issue new bitcoins, but pay nothing to bitcoin holders. In legitimate investments, issuers of an instrument pay its holders monetary or non-monetary value, as I have explained above.
They do pay a non-monetary value, "hashrate", which translates into network security and thus adds value to the network. And that's the point of Satoshi's proof-of-work model.That's besides the point.
No. It isn't. You want it to be, and you keep claiming that it is, but none of your statements on the matter stand up to scrutiny. They sound great as a sound bite if you just declare them to be true and then move on hoping that nobody looks too closely, but with even a cursory look into the details of what you're saying the whole opinion falls apart.
Gold is a commodity, and not record like Bitcoin, fiat, bonds and stocks. So, in the case of gold nobody has to pay anything to gold holder - as this holder already has tangible good. It's like buying a car - you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase a car.
Equally, Bitcoin is a digital good. It has value, and as such you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase Bitcoins.
But when you invest into some project or paper/digital record, then you expect payment from project organizer or record issuer.
Not true. When I use my USD to purchase Euro, or Peso, or Yen, or any other currency, I do not expect the issuer of that currency to pay me USD.
Bitcoin is not an investment into a "project". It is a money. The exchange rate between Bitcoin and any other money may vary over time, and some people can take advantage of this varying exchange rate to profit (just like you could profit by taking advantage of variations between the exchange rate between USD and the Euro). Anyone that expects some "issuer" to pay them for accepting Bitcoin has wildly misunderstood what Bitcoin is and how it works.
In Ponzi, the payment is possible only from funds of other investors. In bitcoin also. And that's the point.
In ALL TRANSACTIONS, payment is only possible from funds of someone else paying you. That's the DEFINITION OF A FINANCIAL TRANSACTION.
You seem to like to say:
"Look, someone paid someone, in a Ponzi people pay people, therefore it is a Ponzi!"
Then when someone points out that there are lots of reasons that people pay people, and that they are not all Ponzi, you respond with:
"Those examples are beside the point. In those examples, someone paid someone and since they were paid it's ok. But in Bitcoin someone pays someone, and in Ponzi someone pays someone, therefore Bitcoin is a Ponzi!"
It's circular nonsense that carries no meaning. Yes, in a scam, a person is convinced to give another person something of value. That is NOT what makes it a scam. People give other people things of value all the time in situations that are not a scam. Until you can understand this, you aren't going to get anywhere in this conversation.
Regarding bitcoin issuers. It doesn't matter who issues bitcoin.
It does matter. It matters because NOBODY issues Bitcoin. Since nobody issues Bitcoin, there is nobody to operate a "Ponzi". There is nobody to be a "Scheme Organizer" (which is who you claim should be paying someone).
What matters is that its holders are not paid by the issuers
One cannot be paid by someone that does not exist. What matters is that holders should not expect to be paid by anyone for holding. It is not an "investment" into a business. It does not pay "dividends" or "interest". It is an inflationary money that will eventually become deflationary.
like in all legitimate investments, but by other bitcoin investors, like in Ponzi schemes.
There you go saying words again that don't make sense, and that are contradictory.
When you purchase Euro you expect to spend it since you cannot eat it or drink it. Hence you expect the non-monetary value. This value is provided by the borrowers prior to their loan payments, as explained in the video.
Financial transaction or paying with an instrument is not replying an instrument. I can pay you in bonds, stocks or dollars but bond, stock or dollar issuer is the one who repays these instruments. In bitcoin, its issuers don't repay it, which is why this repayment is possible only from funds of other bitcoin investors. To put it another way. Bitcoin is worthless since all value is brought by new investors. Just like in all ponzi-like schemes.
It was YOU who DISHONESTLY suggested that YOUR special solution applies to "Everyone" else, and as you've already pointed out:
Hahaha, THAT is your point, that someone in North Korea or other really messed up country will have a hard time purchasing gold 
It seems you may need to work on your reading comprehension skills a bit.
My point was that you called someone dishonest for stating that THEY had a problem. You claimed that they "infer that their special problems apply to everyone else", which they did not. You tried to accuse them of lying and being dishonest (when they were not).
This already establishes you as a bully, and as a dishonest person.
But, even more so, you established yourself as a hypocrite. You did so by first actually claiming that something applies to "everyone" (which it did not) and then calling someone else "dishonest" for implying that something applied to everyone (which they did not.
BTC is meant to be sent electronically, how do you send out that physical bitcoin gold worth 0.1? Its an odd thing because I can't use sandpaper to divide it and give out the gold dust to someone worth 0.1.
If you look at BTC as currency it won't be ponzi because its suppose to be just a currency. The only reason why its value rises and fall is because of the market.
If you look at BTC as currency it won't be ponzi because its suppose to be just a currency. The only reason why its value rises and fall is because of the market.
It was YOU who DISHONESTLY suggested that YOUR special solution applies to "Everyone" else, and as you've already pointed out:
Hahaha, THAT is your point, that someone in North Korea or other really messed up country will have a hard time purchasing gold ??? When we give adivce, it never applies to evey person on the planet, covering 99 % of people that read and use this forum is good enough. How utterly DISHONEST and IRRELEVANT can you be ??? The fact that you must stretch so far shows how intellectually corrupt you are if you think this makes your point. This is a huge red flag, and is a perfect example of the kind of person never to listen to. Would you listen to an investment advisor from a bank that went to such dishonesty as to use examples that apply to almost no one ???
The VAST MAJORITY of people here do not have problems buying real gold if they want.
So are you from North Korea, or just dishonest and trying to give a false impression to everyone here 🙈🙈🙈
Hard Facts
That's besides the point.
No. It isn't. You want it to be, and you keep claiming that it is, but none of your statements on the matter stand up to scrutiny. They sound great as a sound bite if you just declare them to be true and then move on hoping that nobody looks too closely, but with even a cursory look into the details of what you're saying the whole opinion falls apart.
Gold is a commodity, and not record like Bitcoin, fiat, bonds and stocks. So, in the case of gold nobody has to pay anything to gold holder - as this holder already has tangible good. It's like buying a car - you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase a car.
Equally, Bitcoin is a digital good. It has value, and as such you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase Bitcoins.
But when you invest into some project or paper/digital record, then you expect payment from project organizer or record issuer.
Not true. When I use my USD to purchase Euro, or Peso, or Yen, or any other currency, I do not expect the issuer of that currency to pay me USD.
Bitcoin is not an investment into a "project". It is a money. The exchange rate between Bitcoin and any other money may vary over time, and some people can take advantage of this varying exchange rate to profit (just like you could profit by taking advantage of variations between the exchange rate between USD and the Euro). Anyone that expects some "issuer" to pay them for accepting Bitcoin has wildly misunderstood what Bitcoin is and how it works.
In Ponzi, the payment is possible only from funds of other investors. In bitcoin also. And that's the point.
In ALL TRANSACTIONS, payment is only possible from funds of someone else paying you. That's the DEFINITION OF A FINANCIAL TRANSACTION.
You seem to like to say:
"Look, someone paid someone, in a Ponzi people pay people, therefore it is a Ponzi!"
Then when someone points out that there are lots of reasons that people pay people, and that they are not all Ponzi, you respond with:
"Those examples are beside the point. In those examples, someone paid someone and since they were paid it's ok. But in Bitcoin someone pays someone, and in Ponzi someone pays someone, therefore Bitcoin is a Ponzi!"
It's circular nonsense that carries no meaning. Yes, in a scam, a person is convinced to give another person something of value. That is NOT what makes it a scam. People give other people things of value all the time in situations that are not a scam. Until you can understand this, you aren't going to get anywhere in this conversation.
Regarding bitcoin issuers. It doesn't matter who issues bitcoin.
It does matter. It matters because NOBODY issues Bitcoin. Since nobody issues Bitcoin, there is nobody to operate a "Ponzi". There is nobody to be a "Scheme Organizer" (which is who you claim should be paying someone).
What matters is that its holders are not paid by the issuers
One cannot be paid by someone that does not exist. What matters is that holders should not expect to be paid by anyone for holding. It is not an "investment" into a business. It does not pay "dividends" or "interest". It is an inflationary money that will eventually become deflationary.
like in all legitimate investments, but by other bitcoin investors, like in Ponzi schemes.
There you go saying words again that don't make sense, and that are contradictory.
Irrelevant points. In the bitcoin scheme, investors are paid from funds that came from the pockets of other bitcoin investors.
In ALL INVESTMENTS, funds are paid from the funds that come from the pockets of other investors.
If you buy gold at $1500 USD per ounce and then later sell it at $1550 USD per ounce...
It doesn't matter that you had "ownership" of that gold. The fact still remains that your $50 profit per ounce CAME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANOTHER INVESTOR.
If you buy land at $4000 USD per acre, and then later sell it at $4400 USD per acre...
It doesn't matter whether you had "ownership" of that land. The fact still remains that your $400 profit per acre CAME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANOTHER INVESTOR.
That's Ponzi-like.
Clearly, it isn't.
Scheme organizers are miners. They issue new bitcoins,
No. they don't. They purchase the issued bitcoins (through the cost purchasing and operating the mining equipment), and then they sell the bitcoins to those that want them.
but pay nothing to bitcoin holders.
They pay bitcoins to the bitcoin purchasers. As we've already established, Bitcoins have value.
In legitimate investments, issuers of an instrument pay its holders monetary or non-monetary value, as I have explained above.
With gold, the miner of the gold pays local currency to acquire mining equipment. Then uses that mining equipment (along with operating costs) to acquire the gold. Then pays the gold (which has a value attributed to it by humans) to the purchaser of the gold in exchange for local currency.
With Bitcoin, the miner of the Bitcoin pays local currency to acquire mining equipment. Then uses that mining equipment (along with operating costs) to acquire the Bitcoin. Then pays the Bitcoin (which has a value attributed to it by humans) to the purchaser of the Bitcoin in exchange for local currency.
I don't see a difference here.
In the bitcoin scheme, miners pay nothing to bitcoin holders, which is why these holders can be paid only from funds of other bitcoin investors, like in classical ponzi-like schemes.
You keep saying this, but saying it doesn't make it true. You can say that black is white as many times as you like, it won't change the fact that you are wrong. None of your examples, or explanations stand up to scrutiny.
Regarding bitcoin issuers. It doesn't matter who issues bitcoin. What matters is that its holders are not paid by the issuers like in all legitimate investments, but by other bitcoin investors, like in Ponzi schemes.
Irrelevant points. In the bitcoin scheme, investors are paid from funds that came from the pockets of other bitcoin investors.
In ALL INVESTMENTS, funds are paid from the funds that come from the pockets of other investors.
If you buy gold at $1500 USD per ounce and then later sell it at $1550 USD per ounce...
It doesn't matter that you had "ownership" of that gold. The fact still remains that your $50 profit per ounce CAME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANOTHER INVESTOR.
If you buy land at $4000 USD per acre, and then later sell it at $4400 USD per acre...
It doesn't matter whether you had "ownership" of that land. The fact still remains that your $400 profit per acre CAME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANOTHER INVESTOR.
That's Ponzi-like.
Clearly, it isn't.
Scheme organizers are miners. They issue new bitcoins,
No. they don't. They purchase the issued bitcoins (through the cost purchasing and operating the mining equipment), and then they sell the bitcoins to those that want them.
but pay nothing to bitcoin holders.
They pay bitcoins to the bitcoin purchasers. As we've already established, Bitcoins have value.
In legitimate investments, issuers of an instrument pay its holders monetary or non-monetary value, as I have explained above.
With gold, the miner of the gold pays local currency to acquire mining equipment. Then uses that mining equipment (along with operating costs) to acquire the gold. Then pays the gold (which has a value attributed to it by humans) to the purchaser of the gold in exchange for local currency.
With Bitcoin, the miner of the Bitcoin pays local currency to acquire mining equipment. Then uses that mining equipment (along with operating costs) to acquire the Bitcoin. Then pays the Bitcoin (which has a value attributed to it by humans) to the purchaser of the Bitcoin in exchange for local currency.
I don't see a difference here.
In the bitcoin scheme, miners pay nothing to bitcoin holders, which is why these holders can be paid only from funds of other bitcoin investors, like in classical ponzi-like schemes.
You keep saying this, but saying it doesn't make it true. You can say that black is white as many times as you like, it won't change the fact that you are wrong. None of your examples, or explanations stand up to scrutiny.
and what would be the price to acquire this physical bitcoin? in my case in addition to having to pay the price of the physical bitcoin, I would have to pay the DHL for this physical bitcoin to arrive safely in my country and not take a long time to arrive and I would still have to pay my country's customs and still in my country i would have to pay a fee to take this physical bitcoin, not to mention that in my country it takes hours to be attended when the person is going to take anything from abroad.
titanic member
THE VAST MAJORITY of people do NOT live in such a messed up country, with such dumb regulations. So your complaints mean NOTHING to most people here.
VERY DISHONEST trying to infer that your special problems apply to everyone else, they do not... Most of us know exactly how much an ounce of Physical BitCoin costs, about USD 1550.00.... You trying to say people do not know the price of an ounce of gold is a LIE, and once someone post lies, they lose all credibility. In the end, what you say above will mean NOTHING when bitcoin goes down in price significantly, you will still lose your money just like everyone else.
I will remind you of this post next year, and see if you are still smiling....
Hard Facts
VERY DISHONEST of YOU trying to imply that there was ANYTHING in his post suggesting that this was a problem for anyone else in any other country. He simply stated that these were issues that HE had to deal with.
Everyone should get the Real, Physical Bitcoin shown below that can not be hacked, and is actually YOURS, instead of just allowing you to be a member of the Titanic....
It was YOU who DISHONESTLY suggested that YOUR special solution applies to "Everyone" else, and as you've already pointed out:
once someone post lies, they lose all credibility.
and what would be the price to acquire this physical bitcoin? in my case in addition to having to pay the price of the physical bitcoin, I would have to pay the DHL for this physical bitcoin to arrive safely in my country and not take a long time to arrive and I would still have to pay my country's customs and still in my country i would have to pay a fee to take this physical bitcoin, not to mention that in my country it takes hours to be attended when the person is going to take anything from abroad.
titanic member
THE VAST MAJORITY of people do NOT live in such a messed up country, with such dumb regulations. So your complaints mean NOTHING to most people here.
VERY DISHONEST trying to infer that your special problems apply to everyone else, they do not... Most of us know exactly how much an ounce of Physical BitCoin costs, about USD 1550.00.... You trying to say people do not know the price of an ounce of gold is a LIE, and once someone post lies, they lose all credibility. In the end, what you say above will mean NOTHING when bitcoin goes down in price significantly, you will still lose your money just like everyone else.
I will remind you of this post next year, and see if you are still smiling....
Hard Facts
Everyone should get the Real, Physical Bitcoin shown below that can not be hacked, and is actually YOURS
and what would be the price to acquire this physical bitcoin? in my case in addition to having to pay the price of the physical bitcoin, I would have to pay the DHL for this physical bitcoin to arrive safely in my country and not take a long time to arrive and I would still have to pay my country's customs and still in my country i would have to pay a fee to take this physical bitcoin, not to mention that in my country it takes hours to be attended when the person is going to take anything from abroad.
instead of just allowing you to be a member of the Titanic....
titanic member
scheme organizers
Who are these "scheme organizers"? The devs? The core team? The first investors? There is no such thing in Bitcoin.
Quote
scheme's economic activity
The "scheme's economic activity" is exactly what you describe as ...Quote
funds brought by the participants themselves.
... because Bitcoin is most similar to a barter community. It works only if it's used. But it doesn't need "new participants" nor growing value flowing in (as you seem to begin to acknowledge
).Scheme organizers are miners. They issue new bitcoins, but pay nothing to bitcoin holders. In legitimate investments, issuers of an instrument pay its holders monetary or non-monetary value, as I have explained above. In the bitcoin scheme, miners pay nothing to bitcoin holders, which is why these holders can be paid only from funds of other bitcoin investors, like in classical ponzi-like schemes.
scheme organizers
Who are these "scheme organizers"? The devs? The core team? The first investors? There is no such thing in Bitcoin.
Quote
scheme's economic activity
The "scheme's economic activity" is exactly what you describe as ...Quote
funds brought by the participants themselves.
... because Bitcoin is most similar to a barter community. It works only if it's used. But it doesn't need "new participants" nor growing value flowing in (as you seem to begin to acknowledge
).this is exactly how all ponzi-like schemes operate. Bitcoins is simply a classical ponzi-like scheme
You keep using this word. This word does not mean what you seem to think it means.
A Ponzi can not operate if nobody new is recruited. Its very existence depends on a continuous flow of new participants.
Bitcoin does not need any new participants at all. The existing participants can pay each other with bitcoin and it will operate just fine.
this is exactly how all ponzi-like schemes operate. Bitcoins is simply a classical ponzi-like scheme
You keep using this word. This word does not mean what you seem to think it means.
A Ponzi can not operate if nobody new is recruited. Its very existence depends on a continuous flow of new participants.
Bitcoin does not need any new participants at all. The existing participants can pay each other with bitcoin and it will operate just fine.
The following sentence: "The Earth is round", is a series of characters capable of being proven true. But is not money.
Only because it is not "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts." The fact that it is not money has nothing to do with whether it is a record of ownership or not.
Money is a thing (ownership) which is represented with a record. It is something outside the record.
That "thing" that money is a record of is "value". It doesn't need to be (and typically isn't) a physical object. In nearly all modern cases, money is simply a verifiable record of control over value.
Finally, human concepts can be extremely irrational. If membership in the community of Bitcoin holders control over a quantity of bitcoin has "value" to someone he/she is free to investment invest his/her entire savings into it.
FTFY
But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community.
Not true at all. That bitcoin can be exchanged with other members of the Bitcoin community for anything else of value. Bitcoin does not require "new members" at all.
And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.
No. There are a lot of different fraudulent schemes. The one thing they all have in common is that they depend on fraud. That is true regardless of whether the person/people operating the scheme are acquiring bitcoin, USD, gold, silver, real estate, or anything else of value.
Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.
Bitcoin doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.
That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.
No. The benefit comes from the fact that it is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."
If you are holding gold (unless you are manufacturing something with it), the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept that gold. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.
If you are holding USD, the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept those USD. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.
When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you came into the possession of some property, we talk about ownership record.
When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you joined some group, we talk about membership record.
When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you joined some group, we talk about membership record.
And when a record is created in order to verify the fact that you have control over something that is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts," we talk about Money.
When a record is created in the blockchain, this is not because you came into the possession of some property.
And when someone hands you a $100 USD bill, this is not because you came into possession of some property either.
Instead, this record is created because you joined the group of Bitcoin holders.
No. The record is created because you have been given control over some value.
In the beginning, membership entrance fee - that granted you one membership stake, was $0.02.
No. In the beginning, bitcoin didn't have value. Just like in the beginning gold didn't have value. Then eventually humans decided that bitcoin was useful and they began to desire it. This gave it value. Just like humans eventually decided that gold was useful and they began to desire it, which gave it value. The most popularly known early transaction was 10,000 BTC for 2 large pizzas. Assuming an approximate cost of $15 per pizza, this would imply that the early value that humans attributed to bitcoin was $0.003 (not $0.02).
Today it is $8.500. Why membership in this group became so expensive is mystery given that membership grants nothing to stakeholders.
Clearly you fail to understand the basic concepts of supply and demand.
But what is certain is that this is the largest fraudulent scheme in the history of mankind.
What is certain is that you have strong opinions that don't line up with reality.
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