Topic: [VIDEO]The Nasty Secret of Bitcoin Exposed - page 2. (Read 720 times)

Nope! Read my post again, particularly the last part.

If you define that a "benefit" only can occur if there is a price increase, then you're right, then you need new members (or more precisely: more "value" flowing into the system, be it "new" people "buying" BTC, people that already hold BTC "buying" more BTC or people "trading" it for goods and services). But again, my point is: Bitcoin doesn't depend on a price increase.

As I wrote, the goal of Bitcoin is to become "peer-to-peer cash". This can only happen if it enters a period of relatively stable BTC price, and that Bitcoin isn't traded primarily to fiat, but to goods and services. Then a circulation emerges where value is flowing from member to member, like it flows in the current fiat-based economy, or in barter systems, which are the best medium to compare Bitcoin to. In this phase, an increase of the value flowing into the system wouldn't be needed anymore, nor are new members purchasing it.

Where you're right is that nobody can guarantee that this will ever happen, while Fiat provides some guarantees like you correctly state (but look at cases like Venezuela, where fiat is regarded inferior than Bitcoin in it's worst bear markets). This is the risk if you buy Bitcoin today - it may simply fail, because it doesn't have an easily calculable "intrinsic" value.

However, there is also a chance that the "stable period" could happen at much higher prices than today. And that's why people are buying Bitcoin now and speculating to get rich.

Only because it is not "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."  The fact that it is not money has nothing to do with whether it is a record of ownership or not.


That "thing" that money is a record of is "value".  It doesn't need to be (and typically isn't) a physical object.  In nearly all modern cases, money is simply a verifiable record of control over value.


FTFY


Not true at all.  That bitcoin can be exchanged with other members of the Bitcoin community for anything else of value.  Bitcoin does not require "new members" at all.


No. There are a lot of different fraudulent schemes.  The one thing they all have in common is that they depend on fraud. That is true regardless of whether the person/people operating the scheme are acquiring bitcoin, USD, gold, silver, real estate, or anything else of value.


Bitcoin doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.


No.  The benefit comes from the fact that it is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."

If you are holding gold (unless you are manufacturing something with it), the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept that gold. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.

If you are holding USD, the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept those USD. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.


And when a record is created in order to verify the fact that you have control over something that is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts," we talk about Money.


And when someone hands you a $100 USD bill, this is not because you came into possession of some property either. 


No.  The record is created because you have been given control over some value.


No.  In the beginning, bitcoin didn't have value.  Just like in the beginning gold didn't have value.  Then eventually humans decided that bitcoin was useful and they began to desire it.  This gave it value.  Just like humans eventually decided that gold was useful and they began to desire it, which gave it value.  The most popularly known early transaction was 10,000 BTC for 2 large pizzas.  Assuming an approximate cost of $15 per pizza, this would imply that the early value that humans attributed to bitcoin was $0.003 (not $0.02).


Clearly you fail to understand the basic concepts of supply and demand.


What is certain is that you have strong opinions that don't line up with reality.

Ponzi-like characteristics do not reside in "holding" an instrument. You can "hold" stock or bond certificates (records) but that won't make them ponzi-like. Ponzi-like characteristics reside in the inability of a holder(scheme member) to benefit from his/her instrument unless the new member voluntarily chooses to buy it. Bitcoin holder can benefit from bitcoin only if someone voluntarily chooses to buy it. This is because no one is obligated to trade his/her goods or services for bitcoin. On the other hand, in the case of dollars for e.g., borrowers are obligated to repay their loans and thus obligated to trade their goods and services to dollar holders. If they default on these obligations and fail in such trades, the banks will foreclose their property that was pledged as collateral and sell it to dollar holders. This is because the created dollars are the liability of the banks, and they are as such recorded in their balance sheets. To put it differently, dollars are records (digital or paper) that grant their holders the entitlements. The same is true for bonds, or stocks - they grant their holders the entitlements. Bitcoin doesn't grant its holders the entitlements, which is why these holders can benefit only from the entitlements (dollars for e.g.) or need-satisfying goods that are brought by new members. And that's the definition of a ponzi-like scheme.

If the purpose of Bitcoin was that buyers "benefit" from it simply by hodling it, then it has ponzi-like characteristics.

But that isn't the case. Bitcoin was designed as "peer to peer cash". The ultimate goal of those that follow Satoshi's original principles is that BTC eventually should enter a stable state, where there is no need for "new members" to enter the system, because it's not used for speculation but for trading goods and services, with an independent money circulation taking place in the Bitcoin ecosystem. In this scenario, the Bitcoin price should stay relatively stable.

And here we come to the question of "utility". If we reach the situation where the Bitcoin price is stable, how can people benefit from entering the Bitcoin ecosystem? Simply because it may have characteristics that are superior of other kinds of money. For example, you can simply send money from one country to another. You can get basic privacy (not a perfect one, but better than most non-crypto competitors). You don't depend from single private entities, like with PayPal and friends. And many people do already use Bitcoin to remove their dependancy of the government issued currency of a badly managed country like Venezuela. In the future, we can add that eventually it may become one of the most accepted forms of money. We don't know, but isn't impossible.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you came into the possession of some property, we talk about ownership record.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you joined some group, we talk about membership record.

When a record is created in the blockchain, this is not because you came into the possession of some property. Instead, this record is created because you joined the group of Bitcoin holders. In the beginning, membership entrance fee - that granted you one membership stake, was $0.02. Today it is $8.500. Why membership in this group became so expensive is mystery given that membership grants nothing to stakeholders. But what is certain is that this is the largest fraudulent scheme in the history of mankind.

He doesn't understand that even fiat is also base to its intrinsic value. The amount we put is what we assume to be its price til someone else bids for the new price. 

I don't understand how he got this membership idea but I can only assume he is from an investment scam which is why is is very used to this membership cards.

Verifiable means capable of being proven as true or real.

A record is a series of characters.

The following sentence: "The Earth is round", is a series of characters capable of being proven true. But is not money.

Money is a thing (ownership) which is represented with a record. It is something outside the record.

Finally, human concepts can be extremely irrational. If membership in the community of Bitcoin holders has "value" to someone he/she is free to investment his/her entire savings into it. But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community. And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.

Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder. That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.

This is something he has failed to wrap his head around... he just doesn't get it... It's all about human subjectivity. The only reason the FIAT/Gold etc is "valuable" is because of collective human subjectivity, which I mentioned in one of my replies... Once you take that out there is no such thing as "Value".

Nope.  Not verifiable record of ownership.

Any verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, in a particular socio-economic context.


It isn't worthless if it is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.  All commodities (such as gold) or anything else that has "ownership" are also worthless if nobody is willing to accept them as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.  Value is an intrinsically human concept.  If humans desire something (membership, ownership, or something else entirely) then it has value.  If humans do not desire it, then it does not have value.

Regardless, A Bitcoin private key is proof of "ownership" and not "membership".  It is possible to "own" rights to value, which is what a private key provides.

Yes, money is any item or verifiable record...but record of ownership, and not record of membership. Characters on a membership card of a local soccer club are also "verifiable record", but are not money. Of course everyone is free to view them as money and trade their property for them, but that's irrational as they are worthless. P.S. The video is edited so you can check the new version that has more details.

You seem to be using a definition of "money" that is different than most.

Most people would agree that:

Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, in a particular country or socio-economic context. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value and sometimes, a standard of deferred payment. Any item or verifiable record that fulfills these functions can be considered as money.

Using this, far more common, understanding of money... Bitcoin is a money system.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to your faith or belief in Bitcoin. If you are doubting that this technology will achieve something someday you might end up being swayed by the rise and fall of prices which is being influenced to a certain extent by the whales. But if you are in the belief that Bitcoin is going to be conquering the world of currency, then you will not mind the temporary price fluctuations.

Screaming FUD every time someone tells the truth about Bitcoin won't make this truth go away.

Finding ways to put btc price down again, so he'll be able to buy at low price. The normal scheme of some newbie accounts from old crypto or bitcoin users to circulate FUD. Those who don't trust yet bitcoin enough can be fooled by some videos and negative threads but not those who already put their time researching and investing in it.

Bitcoin is not a money system as money systems transfer either goods (commodities) or entitlements. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a system for transferring digital membership certificates. Membership certificates are not money.

If telling the truth about Bitcoin puts it in a negative light, then it follows that Bitcoin is a negative thing. And, there's nothing false in the video, as Bitcoin indeed turns ownership into membership, which is how all fraudulent schemes operate.

Bitcoin is different from all other money systems. We cannot compare it with anyone of them. It acts as a strong system of payment without any support or governance. Though it is still in the phase of development, it is very well established and developed system. Other systems are governed by the authorities, governments, banks but it is self-governing.

No, because having a commodity (an actual good) or entitlement to something (non-monetary repayments derived from euro loans) is called ownership. On the other hand, just having a certificate, a card, or a record (paper or digital), without having some actual good or entitlement, is called membership. Of course, the owners of gold and euro can form a club or a community, and name it by the thing they own, but that would just mean they have both the ownership and the membership.


I aggre, Bitcoin price is of simple free market result, but so was the tulip price during the Duch Tulip Mania.

And of course, people don't own Bitcoin. They hold it, as Bitcoin is only a record and not a good or an entitlement.

It puts Bitcoin in a negative light, all of these are all false, there's nothing secret on Bitcoin on how it is being used it's just tell us that Bitcoin is useless when it is not, the creator of this video is so ignorant, he is creating FUDS his two videos are all against Bitcoin, well what you can expect, you cannot please everybody he is ten years late to destroy Bitcoin.

What membership? Do you get a gold membership when you buy gold, or an euro membership when you buy €? Schemes need you to bring others to invest, with bitcoin you don't care if your neighbor gets in or not. It would benefit them, but its their problem if they want or not to buy, and bitcoin certainly doesn't care, it does NOT depend in the inflow of money from people buying it.

Bitcoin price is a simple free market result, it is useful enough to the group of people that own it, because they perceive it so, and that's what truly defines value. This can change at anytime and this is what fluctuation reflects. Over a decade, however, it has been gaining.