Author

Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 15141. (Read 26712694 times)

legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
I get what Torque is pointing at.
Here's a quote from Andreas book that lays it out plainly and I tend to agree.
"Bitcoin isn’t currency. That’s a really important thing to realize. Currency is an app that runs on the bitcoin network. Bitcoin is the internet of money, and currency is just the first application."
So... considering this, is everyone right?

Basically, yes.

Everyone can be right because they are all using semantics, spin and double-speak to push their control agendas. It's like asking Methodists, Anglicans and Mormons about Jesus of Nazareth's teachings.

The final outcome is a sect of coder-monks that live in isolation (on top of mountain in Tibet or Switzerland), take vows of poverty and extreme purity of syntax, to work on the one true bitcoin client ... that's the one I'll be running on my machines.
legendary
Activity: 2833
Merit: 1851
In order to dump coins one must have coins
BTC606 ask wall @ $17.500 on Finex oops OT
legendary
Activity: 1464
Merit: 1136
And once again ... Satoshi was wrong.
Good to have geniuses like your Torque. Thank you for enlightening us with your wisdom.
Now ... if Satoshi was so wrong, why do not we just rewrite the white paper?

.....

Oh! Stupid Satoshi, you were so wrong.

Quit being a trite tool. It's the reason people here don't take you seriously and many have you on ignore.

It doesn't matter what Satoshi originally envisioned as Bitcoin's proposed/intended usage, it only matters how the people that buy it actually use it. It saw almost nil usage as a currency even back when transaction fees were low. Disregarding transaction fees and long confirmation times, it's deflationary nature alone, combined with all the hoop jumping required just to acquire it, nearly kills it as a daily currency. It functions much better as a decentralized digital asset that stores value. That's a fact and nothing you can allude to wrt "Satoshi's original vision" can change that.

Even pre-teens and teens use paper currencies around the world on a daily basis, but hell they can't even purchase Bitcoin without being 18+ yrs old and having a drivers license and a bank account first. How about that fkn irony, Satoshi? Should we add an addendum in the white paper for that too?

Grow the fk up and quit making tool statements.

Torque, you're wrong. People need a coin. Having a decentralized asset, outside the influence of governments, of course it is important; but for ordinary people, it is much more important to have a decentralized currency.

I do not agree either that bitcoin was not used as a currency. The great success of bitcoin came from the hand of black markets. The world could see that it was a real, useful alternative, and outside the influence of governments. And if it were still cheap to make payments, I'm sure the commerce would continue to develop.
Until recently, we saw an organic development of the ecosystem, in which savers, traders, commerce, investors grew symbiotically. Today, commerce has no alternative, and simply bitcoin is being used as an asset for the speculation of the new rich.

I have already told my experience here many times, but Bitcoin for me and many other people, in a third world country, represents much more than an asset. And that is the vision that I always discuss, because here it is much more important to have decentralized money. The rich already have hundreds of assets with which to have fun, and it bothers me to think that bitcoin becomes one more of them.

Edit:My first bitcoins I bought them on the street, without a bank account.


For the other two comments of shit, I do not defend a dogma, but a vision. I like the side chains, but it seems to me that the blockchain must be accessible to anyone.

I get what Torque is pointing at.
Here's a quote from Andreas book that lays it out plainly and I tend to agree.
"Bitcoin isn’t currency. That’s a really important thing to realize. Currency is an app that runs on the bitcoin network. Bitcoin is the internet of money, and currency is just the first application."
So... considering this, is everyone right?
sr. member
Activity: 924
Merit: 311
#TheGoyimKnow
Since Bitcoin’s only true value lies in ‘decentralisation’

Then I guess it's value is already zero.

In the long run, we are all dead.

Meanwhile, let me enjoy BTC $50k soon and the ability to stock up on some Gold, just in case.

Bitcoin = The Mississippi scheme:

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
That is not relevant in the least. It will make it better than it is now.

We need improvements. Before we hit $100+ fees would be nice.


Why does BTC need improvements?  If it is digital gold -- designed to be held and not spent -- then high fees that make it more difficult to use could be seen as a feature.  Plus small blocks make it easier to run full nodes, which is important to many people. 

legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1538
yes
Since Bitcoin’s only true value lies in ‘decentralisation’

Then I guess it's value is already zero.

In the long run, we are all dead.

Meanwhile, let me enjoy BTC $50k soon and the ability to stock up on some Gold, just in case.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278

I have yet to see anyone explain how increasing the blocksize increases centralization. It seems to be some idea that just took hold and that everyone believes in, because they believe in it.

And it doesn't end. There will always be a need for improvements because there will always be competitors ready to take over if we stagnate. stagnation is death.

Lightning requires segwit. Which is to say, it will be as worthless as segwit is.

Increasing the block size will require more storage, faster CPUs, and more network resources.

The further we go, the more we price out smaller miners and move mining to the cartels which is already a problem.

Congrats.  It's now been explained to you.
More processing for more work. Yes. And the problem with that would beee.... that you are upset at physics?

Whatever system is used, industry level players will do better than home hobbyists. Storage is cheap and getting cheaper, and 2 mb blocks, for example, would certainly not tax the typical home connection so I don't see the problem. It would not require more processing power as the block reward is split among miners relative to their contribution, not per-flop. Miners would keep their relative positions.
sr. member
Activity: 924
Merit: 311
#TheGoyimKnow
Since Bitcoin’s only true value lies in ‘decentralisation’

Then I guess it's value is already zero.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Note the unconventional cAPITALIZATION!

I have yet to see anyone explain how increasing the blocksize increases centralization. It seems to be some idea that just took hold and that everyone believes in, because they believe in it.

And it doesn't end. There will always be a need for improvements because there will always be competitors ready to take over if we stagnate. stagnation is death.

Lightning requires segwit. Which is to say, it will be as worthless as segwit is.

Increasing the block size will require more storage, faster CPUs, and more network resources.

The further we go, the more we price out smaller miners and move mining to the cartels which is already a problem.

Congrats.  It's now been explained to you.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 512
Oh it is coming. And when it comes we will light up the world.

Even then I am sure that all the bigblocker trolls will remain here. If having their own fork did not satisfy them nothing will -except of course destroying bitcoin.

true. their real goal.

They would then continue posting on bitcoinisnowdeadtalk.org on how successful big blocks were.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
Oh it is coming. And when it comes we will light up the world.

Even then I am sure that all the bigblocker trolls will remain here. If having their own fork did not satisfy them nothing will -except of course destroying bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 254
That may be so, but your pelvis will always belong to us.

PS. Can I call dibs on that corduroy pillow?

What a memory. It's going to cost rather a lot to haul it to you but I'll leave the shipping in my will. Or medical file.

I've been glued to this wall for almost 4 years. For better and/or worse. Smiley

You may even receive a surprise body part for a loved one.

For better then. Splendid!
legendary
Activity: 2604
Merit: 3056
Welt Am Draht
That may be so, but your pelvis will always belong to us.

PS. Can I call dibs on that corduroy pillow?

What a memory. It's going to cost rather a lot to haul it to you but I'll leave the shipping in my will. Or medical file.

I've been glued to this wall for almost 4 years. For better and/or worse. Smiley

You may even receive a surprise body part for a loved one.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 254
That may be so, but your pelvis will always belong to us.

PS. Can I call dibs on that corduroy pillow?

What a memory. It's going to cost rather a lot to haul it to you but I'll leave the shipping in my will. Or medical file.

I've been glued to this wall for almost 4 years. For better and/or worse. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2604
Merit: 3056
Welt Am Draht
That may be so, but your pelvis will always belong to us.

PS. Can I call dibs on that corduroy pillow?

What a memory. It's going to cost rather a lot to haul it to you but I'll leave the shipping in my will. Or medical file.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 254
I doubt anyone will want his organs. They want young peoples organs for transplants. Old peoples are worn out and won't last as long, and I doubt gentlemand is a spotty school kid.

Shocking. I am a sprightly 40something with plenty of lead left in my pencil. Apart from my lungs, heart, corneas, skin, bowels and a few other things many people would be ecstatic to have my body parts floating around inside them.

That may be so, but your pelvis will always belong to us.

PS. Can I call dibs on that corduroy pillow?
sr. member
Activity: 443
Merit: 260
Meanwhile in Bitcoin-price-land

17k broken again.

850 BTC left for 18k @Bitstamp
1150 BTC left for 19k
1850 BTC left for 20k

(though this shifts obviously once the price rises)

Cheesy

EDIT: 100 BTC sellwall at 17,1k just eaten in 30 seconds.
legendary
Activity: 2744
Merit: 13647
BTC + Crossfit, living life.

Breaking 24777$ prediction game      FINAL LIST       

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UPDATE     AND GOOD LUCK
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
BIG BLOCKER nutjobs REEEEEEEEE!
Suggest a better (implementable in the real world) alternative for getting more throughput. Any of you.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

Just replace Safety with Throughput.

Be patient, people! The scaling problem will be solved, and it will be solved in the right way, and for the long term. Nobody wants a temporary "patch" that requires a hard fork and compromises decentralization. When there are valid reasons to increase the block size, it will be done.
Except that's not even an analogy, that's just replacing one word with another in an unrelated sentence.

Also define "valid reason". We dislike sophism around here.

It's not a sophism. The key word here is "liberty". Are you willing to compromise Bitcoin's decentralization by HARD-FORKING it to a bigger block size, so that you can buy your coffee at Starbucks and keep a permanent record of it in the blockchain? Bitcoin's enemies will still exist, and will still spam the network. Then what? Increase the block size even more, to accumulate more garbage? Another hard fork? Where does it end?

What's needed is a solution that is inherently scalable by design, such as the Lightning Network (or better ones that will surely come). It just doesn't make sense to do a hard fork that merely alleviates the problem temporarily while compromising decentralization, when a much more elegant solution does exist, has already been tested and is almost ready to implement. After LN is implemented, there may be a need for a moderate increase in block size. That's the "valid reason" you are asking. A reason that comes from scientific method, not from a thoughtless "bigger is better" mentality.

The blockchain simply cannot hold every little insignificant transaction that is ever made. It is a waste of resources and totally inefficient. Back in the days when transaction volume was low/moderate, this could be tolerated. Not anymore. Have you kept every little note you've ever made in every little piece of paper since you were born? Do you keep all the shopping lists you make every time you go to the supermarket in a log book for future reference? Should every blackboard on every classroom be made to permanently preserve everything that's written on it?

There has to be a garbage collection mechanism in Bitcoin. We've reached a point where the garbage has become too much for the network to keep storing. The solution is NOT to make more room for even more garbage, but to find a way to destroy them and keep them out of the network. That's what LN does. Thousands of "coffee-sized" transactions aggregated to a single transaction that only takes a small fraction of a block instead of flooding the network. No loss of significance of information, because such information is not significant. No hard fork needed! Want to do an important transaction on-chain? You can, just like today. And you will pay much less fees than today, because LN will free the network from all those millions of petty cash transactions that would otherwise flood it.

Sorry for the long post. It just infuriates me when people fail to see the moon and keep staring at the finger pointing to it...
I have yet to see anyone explain how increasing the blocksize increases centralization. It seems to be some idea that just took hold and that everyone believes in, because they believe in it.

And it doesn't end. There will always be a need for improvements because there will always be competitors ready to take over if we stagnate. stagnation is death.

Lightning requires segwit. Which is to say, it will be as worthless as segwit is.

When a small group can change the narrative and code, it can then happen anytime - centralize to gain control

1) Find a talking point that is critical to the object in question
2) Promote Fear
3) Provide alternative
4) Go ahead with alternative
5) All the while more fear

blocksize debate has been going on for 7 years
What are you trying to address here?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1061
Smile
BIG BLOCKER nutjobs REEEEEEEEE!
Suggest a better (implementable in the real world) alternative for getting more throughput. Any of you.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

Just replace Safety with Throughput.

Be patient, people! The scaling problem will be solved, and it will be solved in the right way, and for the long term. Nobody wants a temporary "patch" that requires a hard fork and compromises decentralization. When there are valid reasons to increase the block size, it will be done.
Except that's not even an analogy, that's just replacing one word with another in an unrelated sentence.

Also define "valid reason". We dislike sophism around here.

It's not a sophism. The key word here is "liberty". Are you willing to compromise Bitcoin's decentralization by HARD-FORKING it to a bigger block size, so that you can buy your coffee at Starbucks and keep a permanent record of it in the blockchain? Bitcoin's enemies will still exist, and will still spam the network. Then what? Increase the block size even more, to accumulate more garbage? Another hard fork? Where does it end?

What's needed is a solution that is inherently scalable by design, such as the Lightning Network (or better ones that will surely come). It just doesn't make sense to do a hard fork that merely alleviates the problem temporarily while compromising decentralization, when a much more elegant solution does exist, has already been tested and is almost ready to implement. After LN is implemented, there may be a need for a moderate increase in block size. That's the "valid reason" you are asking. A reason that comes from scientific method, not from a thoughtless "bigger is better" mentality.

The blockchain simply cannot hold every little insignificant transaction that is ever made. It is a waste of resources and totally inefficient. Back in the days when transaction volume was low/moderate, this could be tolerated. Not anymore. Have you kept every little note you've ever made in every little piece of paper since you were born? Do you keep all the shopping lists you make every time you go to the supermarket in a log book for future reference? Should every blackboard on every classroom be made to permanently preserve everything that's written on it?

There has to be a garbage collection mechanism in Bitcoin. We've reached a point where the garbage has become too much for the network to keep storing. The solution is NOT to make more room for even more garbage, but to find a way to destroy them and keep them out of the network. That's what LN does. Thousands of "coffee-sized" transactions aggregated to a single transaction that only takes a small fraction of a block instead of flooding the network. No loss of significance of information, because such information is not significant. No hard fork needed! Want to do an important transaction on-chain? You can, just like today. And you will pay much less fees than today, because LN will free the network from all those millions of petty cash transactions that would otherwise flood it.

Sorry for the long post. It just infuriates me when people fail to see the moon and keep staring at the finger pointing to it...
I have yet to see anyone explain how increasing the blocksize increases centralization. It seems to be some idea that just took hold and that everyone believes in, because they believe in it.

And it doesn't end. There will always be a need for improvements because there will always be competitors ready to take over if we stagnate. stagnation is death.

Lightning requires segwit. Which is to say, it will be as worthless as segwit is.

When a small group can change the narrative and code, it can then happen anytime - centralize to gain control

1) Find a talking point that is critical to the object in question
2) Promote Fear
3) Provide alternative
4) Go ahead with alternative
5) All the while more fear

blocksize debate has been going on for 7 years




same tool is used to legalize

spying on you
monitor money transactions
mandatory vaccines
etc etc etc

nearly everything you do there is a law because of fear

classic socialism


it is not the better alternative that is the narrative

the fear is the narrative (busted)




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