Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 25966.

NotLambchop

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Quote from: xyzzy099 on September 05, 2014, 11:43:49 AM

Quote from: NotLambchop on September 05, 2014, 11:12:12 AM

Free market is a tautology. It is not Fairy Godmother. Free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.
Unless you believe in the Lizard People, free market is responsible* for every economic system on Earth, including those with central planning, exorbitant taxation and draconian regulations.

TL;DR: Saying "free market will decide" is saying "whatever will be will be"--NOT interesting.

*If only by failing to prevent.

I can't speak to what everyone means when they say "free market", but I think this term is mostly used in this forum to mean "free" in the libertarian sense. That is, my freedom ends where it starts to impinge on your freedom, and vice versa. This means that a "free market" is explicitly NOT one in which you are free to restrict my economic freedom, nor I yours.

From context, I gather that your definition of "free market" is simply 'the exercise of free will', and thus much broader than the meaning intended by the people you are responding to.

From wikip:

Quote

...A free market contrasts with a controlled market or regulated market, in which government intervenes in supply and demand through non-market methods such as laws creating barriers to market entry or directly setting prices (etc., etc.)

What freedoms are you talking about, in particular? For instance, your notion that my freedoms should stop where yours begin seems overbroad. Can I take from you what I believe to be rightfully mine?

grappa_barricata

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playing pasta and eating mandolinos

There is a little lizard inside your skull.

NotLambchop

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 254

Quote from: empowering on September 05, 2014, 11:33:12 AM

Quote from: NotLambchop on September 05, 2014, 11:12:12 AM

...
Free market is a tautology. It is not Fairy Godmother. Free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.
Unless you believe in the Lizard People, free market is responsible* for every economic system on Earth, including those with central planning, exorbitant taxation and draconian regulations.

TL;DR: Saying "free market will decide" is saying "whatever will be will be"--NOT interesting.

*If only by failing to prevent.

Hmm I do not agree... besides markets have rarely been allowed to be actually free...

Allowed by whom? What, other than the free market, allowed the [obviously undesirable] "not free market" to happen? Our masters The Lizard People?

Quote

...and also the free market does not make good stuff succeed, and bad stuff fail... it is the other way around good stuff in a free market has a chance at succeeding and bad stuff in a free market is free to not be supported by customers and to fail... there are other factors in play of course... apart from for rigged markets..

Sure. Bad stuff, like not_free_market, is free to be unsupported. Unfortunately, it obviously was supported--after thousands of years free market dialectic, it's finally with us

Quote

besides surely then by your logic then... the "bad stuff" in this case being ~~centralisation~~ specialisation of BTC mining in this case ,being the "bad stuff" or making BTC "bad stuff" then it will not magically make BTC fail then according to your logic? because the free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.

Where have I suggested that free market would make bitcoin fail? I even left a TL;DR: for you,

Quote

TL;DR: Saying "free market will decide" is saying "whatever will be will be"--NOT interesting.

Quote

Or are by saying "irrelevant" are you more talking about what BTC had written on the tin when it first popped up? as opposed to it failing?

Not sure what you're asking.

xyzzy099

legendary

Activity: 1066

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Quote from: NotLambchop on September 05, 2014, 11:12:12 AM

Free market is a tautology. It is not Fairy Godmother. Free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.
Unless you believe in the Lizard People, free market is responsible* for every economic system on Earth, including those with central planning, exorbitant taxation and draconian regulations.

TL;DR: Saying "free market will decide" is saying "whatever will be will be"--NOT interesting.

*If only by failing to prevent.

I can't speak to what everyone means when they say "free market", but I think this term is mostly used in this forum to mean "free" in the libertarian sense. That is, my freedom ends where it starts to impinge on your freedom, and vice versa. This means that a "free market" is explicitly NOT one in which you are free to restrict my economic freedom, nor I yours.

From context, I gather that your definition of "free market" is simply 'the exercise of free will', and thus much broader than the meaning intended by the people you are responding to.

empowering

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Activity: 1078

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Quote from: NotLambchop on September 05, 2014, 11:12:12 AM

Quote from: empowering on September 05, 2014, 10:37:25 AM

Quote from: NotLambchop on September 05, 2014, 10:02:19 AM

...
I'm not disagreeing with you. My slant on this is the question is not what we believe, but how we act on those beliefs.
Bitcoin, at the outset, rejected centralization. Individual miners using their spare CPU cycles to mine etc., etc.
That's history.
The real mining is done by megafarms, the remaining small miners point their rigs at megapools. Some don't even buy gear, just "invest" in "cloud mining."
You gotta admit, already not much of the original decentralisation left. Miners don't care about the voice that they have, my guess is most wouldn't know how to go about using it. Empty concept. They distribute the risks--paying a central entity (pool) to increase the odds of having a steady paycheck.
Bitcoiners invest in "Bitcoin banks" (NeoBee), no matter how absurd such a thing is.
Bitcoiners ape *everything that we once wanted to leave behind*, including centralization.

Christianity, and other utopias like Communism, are also all wonderful blueprints to live by--at the conceptual level. The problem is, just like Bitcoin, they tend to get corrupted, rot on exposure to IRL, and, eventually, become irrelevant. Tell me you can't already see this happening with Bitcoin Undecided

[/grumbling]

TL;DR: All the signs are pointing to Bitcoin becoming progressively more centralized and, therefore, irrelevant. Sad but true.

Important word= Competition , in this case between miners/new hardware operating on the network....

but also from .......

Other Cryptocurrency....

If Bitcoin for whatever reason falls out of favour, then the market can decide if it is now irrelevant, or not... if it is, and the free market is allowed to operate, then users and maybe miners, are free to decide and move on.... as long as the free market is allowed to make the decision, and there is no enforcement then either centralisation, or maybe more accurate specialisation can do its worse... OR Bitcoin, and the network will solve the problem (free miners dished out with aount of BTC, dual use technologies, or even a hardfork to render farms useless idk but not the point)

Point is if the free market is allowed to operate, then consumers/users get to decide, and then the market will do , what the market wil do.. and with it the Bitcoin price.

Free market is a tautology. It is not Fairy Godmother. Free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.
Unless you believe in the Lizard People, free market is responsible* for every economic system on Earth, including those with central planning, exorbitant taxation and draconian regulations.

TL;DR: Saying "free market will decide" is saying "whatever will be will be"--NOT interesting.

*If only by failing to prevent.

Hmm I do not agree... besides markets have rarely been allowed to be actually free... and also the free market does not make good stuff succeed, and bad stuff fail... it is the other way around good stuff in a free market has a chance at succeeding and bad stuff in a free market is free to not be supported by customers and to fail... there are other factors in play of course... apart from for rigged markets..

besides surely then by your logic then... the "bad stuff" in this case being ~~centralisation~~ specialisation of BTC mining in this case ,being the "bad stuff" or making BTC "bad stuff" then it will not magically make BTC fail then according to your logic? because the free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.

Or by saying "irrelevant" are you more talking about what BTC had written on the tin when it first popped up? as opposed to it failing?

NotLambchop

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 254

Shhh... No more tears.

X7

legendary

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

Obvious troll is obvious

NotLambchop

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 254

Your bear friend is looking for you...

falllling

member

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Quote from: X7 on September 05, 2014, 11:17:55 AM

Quote from: falllling on September 05, 2014, 11:11:06 AM

dead cat bounce is over~

time to drop back to $300

the truth which should not be named: "bitcoin is going to nowhere but down, ponzi pyramid schame game over bubble burst"

X7

legendary

Activity: 1162

Merit: 1009

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

Quote from: falllling on September 05, 2014, 11:11:06 AM

dead cat bounce is over~

time to drop back to $300

grappa_barricata

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

playing pasta and eating mandolinos

Quote from: NotLambchop on September 05, 2014, 11:12:12 AM

Free market is a tautology. It is not Fairy Godmother. Free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.
Unless you believe in the Lizard People, free market is responsible* for every economic system on Earth, including those with central planning, exorbitant taxation and draconian regulations.

TL;DR: Saying "free market will decide" is saying "whatever will be will be"--NOT interesting.

*If only by failing to prevent.

No, the Fairy Godmother of the Lizard People is expecting that a policy-maker can take the right decision to influence a complex system, when it is impossible even to analyze it let alone anticipate the implications of the changes.

We have yet to experience a 'free market world'.

falllling

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: macsga on September 05, 2014, 11:14:29 AM

I miss the rocket trains to the moon... Undecided

they are long gone, not any more! time to wake up!

macsga

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1002

Strange, yet attractive.

I miss the rocket trains to the moon... Undecided

NotLambchop

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 254

Quote from: empowering on September 05, 2014, 10:37:25 AM

Quote from: NotLambchop on September 05, 2014, 10:02:19 AM

...
I'm not disagreeing with you. My slant on this is the question is not what we believe, but how we act on those beliefs.
Bitcoin, at the outset, rejected centralization. Individual miners using their spare CPU cycles to mine etc., etc.
That's history.
The real mining is done by megafarms, the remaining small miners point their rigs at megapools. Some don't even buy gear, just "invest" in "cloud mining."
You gotta admit, already not much of the original decentralisation left. Miners don't care about the voice that they have, my guess is most wouldn't know how to go about using it. Empty concept. They distribute the risks--paying a central entity (pool) to increase the odds of having a steady paycheck.
Bitcoiners invest in "Bitcoin banks" (NeoBee), no matter how absurd such a thing is.
Bitcoiners ape *everything that we once wanted to leave behind*, including centralization.

Christianity, and other utopias like Communism, are also all wonderful blueprints to live by--at the conceptual level. The problem is, just like Bitcoin, they tend to get corrupted, rot on exposure to IRL, and, eventually, become irrelevant. Tell me you can't already see this happening with Bitcoin Undecided

[/grumbling]

TL;DR: All the signs are pointing to Bitcoin becoming progressively more centralized and, therefore, irrelevant. Sad but true.

Important word= Competition , in this case between miners/new hardware operating on the network....

but also from .......

Other Cryptocurrency....

If Bitcoin for whatever reason falls out of favour, then the market can decide if it is now irrelevant, or not... if it is, and the free market is allowed to operate, then users and maybe miners, are free to decide and move on.... as long as the free market is allowed to make the decision, and there is no enforcement then either centralisation, or maybe more accurate specialisation can do its worse... OR Bitcoin, and the network will solve the problem (free miners dished out with aount of BTC, dual use technologies, or even a hardfork to render farms useless idk but not the point)

Point is if the free market is allowed to operate, then consumers/users get to decide, and then the market will do , what the market wil do.. and with it the Bitcoin price.

Free market is a tautology. It is not Fairy Godmother. Free market doesn't magically make good stuff succeed and bad stuff fail.
Unless you believe in the Lizard People, free market is responsible* for every economic system on Earth, including those with central planning, exorbitant taxation and draconian regulations.

TL;DR: Saying "free market will decide" is saying "whatever will be will be"--NOT interesting.

*If only by failing to prevent.

falllling

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

dead cat bounce is over~

time to drop back to $300

X7

legendary

Activity: 1162

Merit: 1009

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

Quote from: adamstgBit on September 05, 2014, 11:04:38 AM

Quote from: X7 on September 05, 2014, 11:01:45 AM

its up like 300% instead of 800%

Yeah, picked the meme to bring some reality... If I invested 50k in a business that had a 300% return on year 1... It would be a good day... lol

Torque

legendary

Activity: 3780

Merit: 5429

I am going to laugh my ass off when one day in the future, just out of the blue, none of us know when, the whales suddenly reappear and start buying up bitcoin like crazy.

It's inevitable, and it will baffle everyone. We'll see a hundred threads pop up overnight that say "So what's happening?? What's going on?? Why the price shooting up like crazy???" And no one will know why, as there will be no news. But it will just keep on going up. Then bam, vertical again.

And THEN some major awesome news will come out 4-6 weeks after the price started going up, appearing right in the middle of the peak, and in hindsight everyone will go, "Oh, so THAT'S why!"

The sheep are always the last to know; the insiders are always the first. Wink