Author

Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 27896. (Read 26631351 times)

hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
Government auctions are tricky.  For example I own a couple of lots in a small New Mexico development. I checked the tax rolls and discovered that most of the neighboring lots were auctioned off for back taxes. The auction price was about 10 percent of the market price. I asked several times to be put on the list for the next auction and I was never notified. The people that participate in these auctions have inside connections and the "contraband" gets too often sold at substantially lower than market rates. It's part corruption and part incompetence.
Governments will not go out of their way to notify people of such auctions.  They list them in some obscure site or government publication. There are people who make good money by scanning those places every day, showing up at those auctions, and re-selling the goods they buy on the market with large profit margins.  Since the government officials do not get to keep any of that money, they have little incentive to get better prices.  As long as there are a few bids for each item, they have done their job, and that is all they care.

EDIT: the auctions may also be run by private companies under contract by the government, in which case foul play and kickbacks are much "safer" and therefore likely.

Let's just ask the thread: Has anyone attempted to buy the FBI coins or inquired as to how and where they could be purchased? The Feds claim they've already sold over 3 Million dollars worth. The whom? does anybody know?

AFAIK none of the Silk Road coins have been auctioned yet; the court authorized the sale only recently, and appeals may still be possible.  It is not clear that those 3 M$ of "seized revenue" from the Slomp/J case were bitcoins.  In the accounts I read the police did not said so.  The reporter may have guessed that they seized bitcoins and exchanged for cash;  but would be very strange for the police to sell the coins (or any merchandise) before even arresting the man and filing the charges against him.  The seized "proceeds" may have been dollars or foreign currency (which they are allowed to exchange for dollars immediately, I believe).
full member
Activity: 175
Merit: 100
 I've discovered (or merely re-confirmed, in some of these cases) that :

 ~> I hate high prices.
 ~> Hate Low-Volatility & 'Retail-Friendly Price Stability'.
 ~> Hate regulation/integration w/ existing fiat-based economies.
 ~> Hate reliance on widespread merchant adoption & VC investment.
 ~> Hate the idea of crypto moving away from its anarcho-libertarian roots.
 ~> Hate big government (especially the PBoC's bs Grin).
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1031
I bet the FBI sold their coins to the NSA

 Cheesy


it was silly of us to think we'd get a piece of the action...

That's if the Chinese government didn't offer them a better price.  Grin
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
I got Satoshi's avatar!
Not if I was on that jury.
"undue" is subjective. How were you going to buy bitcoins if they weren't for sale? If I'm a firefighter (and I am), I can't get credit for putting out a fire when I put oily rags next to a heater. Placing the ad is encouraging and enabling the "crime". If I as a private citizen did it, could be prosecuted for soliciting, then when a policemen does the same thing, he is entrapping. Fucking cops need to understand their job is crime prevention primarily and secondarily to assist in the solving and prosecution of crimes. Turning people into criminals so they can have someone to arrest is itself a criminal act.

So let's say I go onto a website to buy cocaine. I see an ad for cocaine, and contact the seller to buy it. How was I in any way pressured or entrapped to buy cocaine? I clearly was seeking out a way to buy cocaine, and almost certainly would have broken the law regardless of whether that person was an undercover cop. Now replace "cocaine" with "bitcoins" and it is the exact same situation. You absolutely did not go to localbitcoins with the express intent to not buy bitcoins, just like you didn't go onto that drug website to not buy cocaine.

There are some gray areas regarding entrapment. This is absolutely not one of them. Even if the ad was sent to me directly regarding the sale, as long as they didn't keep hounding me after I said no, it would not be entrapment.
I think this goes back to what Billy said earlier: it's not a cops job to be going around putting up ads for cocaine. It's their job to prevent crime, not incite/entice crime.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
I bet the FBI sold their coins to the NSA

 Cheesy


it was silly of us to think we'd get a piece of the action...
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
The Feds claim they've already sold over 3 Million dollars worth. The whom? does anybody know?

If they're smart they sold the coins all over the country via LocalBitcoins.com so they could then arrest all those people for operating an exchange without a license or disregarding AML rules.

That's entrapment. Local cops do that kind of shit all the time, but the Feds at least usually pretend to follow the rules when they could so easily be shown to be actually initiating the "crime" they are prosecuting.

For a guy who is usually propagating anti-federal government rhetoric, you (BJA) surely are being inconsistent here to be giving the fed govt the benefit of the doubt in their policing shenanigans. 

This is one of the frequent themes that I have witnessed with supposed libertarians who will want to get rid of the fed govt when it comes to its role in providing a vast array of social services - however, when it comes to various policing functions or property protection functions, some anti-govt folks seem to harbor some kind of blindness that the federal government is more likely to follow rules.  Maybe I am being too hard on libertarians, here, and this inconsistent viewpoint is merely yours, BJA.

You are adjusting the facts to attempt to fit your assertion, but it still remains quite fantastical to assert that any major discount will be achieved through a mass sale of BTC.

Jesus Christ, I'm not defending the FBI. I'm merely stating that they receive special training on undercover procedures that will hold up in court. They don't follow the rules all the time, but in certain circumstances they follow the rules better than local cops not out of the goodness of their hearts or out of some higher belief in fairness but because they don't want to have their perps get off on what they consider a technicality.

I'm not saying the FBI coins will sell for/ have been sold for a major discount. I'm saying I don't know, and the FBI isn't forthcoming with the information. It's certainly possible.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Not if I was on that jury.
"undue" is subjective. How were you going to buy bitcoins if they weren't for sale? If I'm a firefighter (and I am), I can't get credit for putting out a fire when I put oily rags next to a heater. Placing the ad is encouraging and enabling the "crime". If I as a private citizen did it, could be prosecuted for soliciting, then when a policemen does the same thing, he is entrapping. Fucking cops need to understand their job is crime prevention primarily and secondarily to assist in the solving and prosecution of crimes. Turning people into criminals so they can have someone to arrest is itself a criminal act.

So let's say I go onto a website to buy cocaine. I see an ad for cocaine, and contact the seller to buy it. How was I in any way pressured or entrapped to buy cocaine? I clearly was seeking out a way to buy cocaine, and almost certainly would have broken the law regardless of whether that person was an undercover cop. Now replace "cocaine" with "bitcoins" and it is the exact same situation. You absolutely did not go to localbitcoins with the express intent to not buy bitcoins, just like you didn't go onto that drug website to not buy cocaine. If you didn't plan to buy bitcoins/drugs on these websites and were just visiting out of curiosity, none of the ads on there could pressure you into changing your mind about it.

There are some gray areas regarding entrapment. This is absolutely not one of them. Even if the ad was sent to me directly regarding the sale, as long as they didn't keep hounding me after I said no, it would not be entrapment.

EDIT: To further address your comments, "turning you into a criminal" is entirely entrapment. Passively offering to sell you something that you likely would have purchased anyway is not "turning you into a criminal," because you had plans to commit the crime, anyway, and just happened to be unfortunate enough to do it with an undercover officer.
legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 11405
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
The Feds claim they've already sold over 3 Million dollars worth. The whom? does anybody know?

If they're smart they sold the coins all over the country via LocalBitcoins.com so they could then arrest all those people for operating an exchange without a license or disregarding AML rules.

That's entrapment. Local cops do that kind of shit all the time, but the Feds at least usually pretend to follow the rules when they could so easily be shown to be actually initiating the "crime" they are prosecuting.

For a guy who is usually propagating anti-federal government rhetoric, you (BJA) surely are being inconsistent here to be giving the fed govt the benefit of the doubt in their policing shenanigans. 

This is one of the frequent themes that I have witnessed with supposed libertarians who will want to get rid of the fed govt when it comes to its role in providing a vast array of social services - however, when it comes to various policing functions or property protection functions, some anti-govt folks seem to harbor some kind of blindness that the federal government is more likely to follow rules.  Maybe I am being too hard on libertarians, here, and this inconsistent viewpoint is merely yours, BJA.

You are adjusting the facts to attempt to fit your assertion, but it still remains quite fantastical to assert that any major discount will be achieved through a mass sale of BTC.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
The Feds claim they've already sold over 3 Million dollars worth. The whom? does anybody know?

If they're smart they sold the coins all over the country via LocalBitcoins.com so they could then arrest all those people for operating an exchange without a license or disregarding AML rules.
Grin
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
The Feds claim they've already sold over 3 Million dollars worth. The whom? does anybody know?

If they're smart they sold the coins all over the country via LocalBitcoins.com so they could then arrest all those people for operating an exchange without a license or disregarding AML rules.

That's entrapment. Local cops do that kind of shit all the time, but the Feds at least usually pretend to follow the rules when they could so easily be shown to be actually initiating the "crime" they are prosecuting.

I do not believe that this scenario would legally be considered entrapment.

I've had this conversation with cops several times. Nothing is ever entrapment. OK, Give me an example of what YOU consider entrapment.

A cop is not the person to ask. An officers job is to catch people committing crimes and arrest them. You don't get to scream "entrapment!" and walk away without an arrest. Your lawyer just gets an additional potential defense to get you off.

First two relevant (as in, not yahoo answers) google search results for "entrapment examples" turns up:

http://nationalparalegal.edu/public_documents/courseware_asp_files/criminalLaw/defenses/Entrapment.asp

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/entrapment-basics-33987.html

Some copy and pastes from those sites, for the lazy.

Case Example 1. Mary-Anne Berry is charged with selling illegal drugs to an undercover police officer. Berry testifies that the drugs were for her personal use and that the reason she sold some to the officer is that at a party, the officer falsely said that she wanted some drugs for her mom, who was in a lot of pain. According to Berry, the officer even assured Berry that she wasn't a cop and wasn't setting Berry up. The police officer's actions do not amount to entrapment. Police officers are allowed to tell lies. The officer gave Berry an opportunity to break the law, but the officer did not engage in extreme or overbearing behavior.

Case Example 2. Mary-Anne Berry is charged with selling illegal drugs to an undercover police officer. Berry testifies that, "The drugs were for my personal use. For nearly two weeks, the undercover officer stopped by my apartment and pleaded with me to sell her some of my stash because her mom was extremely sick and needed the drugs for pain relief. I kept refusing. When the officer told me that the drugs would allow her mom to be comfortable for the few days she had left to live, I broke down and sold her some drugs. She immediately arrested me." The undercover agent's repeated entreaties and lies are sufficiently extreme to constitute entrapment and result in a not guilty verdict.

Case Example. Let's say Jim is charged with serving as a lookout during a liquor store robbery carried out by a street gang. Jim claims that Snitch, a neighborhood friend who turned out to be an undercover police officer, entrapped him by telling him that he had to participate in the robbery or Snitch would be unable to protect him from gang retribution. In a state that employs an objective test for entrapment, a jury decides whether Snitch's actions would have induced a normally law-abiding person to participate in the robbery. In a state that employs a subjective test for entrapment, the prosecutor can offer evidence of Jim's predisposition to commit the crime, including that Jim had a lengthy rap sheet and that he was anxious to join the street gang and wanted to prove his mettle by participating in a violent crime. A jury would then decide whether Jim participated in the robbery out of his own willingness to do so, regardless of Snitch's actions.

1) Fred, a law abiding citizen, is walking home from work one afternoon when Wilma, a prostitute, approaches him and offers her services for the price of fifty dollars. Fred has never used the services of a prostitute before, but he decides to give it a try and he takes Wilma up on her offer. Wilma leads Fred to a nearby motel room and, once inside, she identifies herself as an undercover police officer and arrests Fred. In this situation, an entrapment defense will probably not be available to Fred because Fred responded readily to the opportunity to commit this crime. Therefore, although Wilma provided Fred with the opportunity to commit the crime, she did not induce him to do it.

2) Fred, a law abiding citizen, is walking home from work one day when Wilma, a prostitute, approaches him and offers him her services for the price of fifty dollars. Fred tells Wilma he is not interested and continues walking. Over the next several blocks Wilma follows Fred and repeatedly offers her services to him, which Fred repeatedly rejects. However, after a few minutes, Wilma’s repeated offers pique Fred’s curiosity and he decides to give it a try. Wilma then leads Fred to a nearby motel room and once inside she identifies herself as an undercover police officer and arrests Fred. In this case, Fred will have the entrapment defense at his disposal because Wilma repeatedly requested that Fred commit the crime and it was only after several rejections by Fred that Wilma succeeded in getting him to actually commit the crime. Therefore, in this case, Wilma has actually induced Fred, who does not seem to be predisposed to committing this kind of crime, into committing the crime.

Note how the localbitcoins scenario involves no undue pressure to buy, and it would be quite easy to convince a jury that you would have bought those bitcoins regardless of whether you had seen their ad.

Not if I was on that jury.
"undue" is subjective. How were you going to buy bitcoins if they weren't for sale? If I'm a firefighter (and I am), I can't get credit for putting out a fire when I put oily rags next to a heater. Placing the ad is encouraging and enabling the "crime". If I as a private citizen did it, could be prosecuted for soliciting, then when a policemen does the same thing, he is entrapping. Fucking cops need to understand their job is crime prevention primarily and secondarily to assist in the solving and prosecution of crimes. Turning people into criminals so they can have someone to arrest is itself a criminal act.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
I got Satoshi's avatar!
In general, you are correct, but let's say you wanted to buy a couple of supertankers worth of crude oil tomorrow and to pay for it with bitcoin. You couldn't easily acquire enough bitcoin to do that without seriously disrupting the markets, especially if the seller was going to cash out to fiat at the other end. You'd need to use a futures contract to avoid paying too much or too little.
At the moment, you are correct bitcoin is not ready for massive transactions like that at the moment, the market is too small and any big buy or sell seriously affects the price. I'm hoping with wider adoption and a higher value per bitcoin that it won't become an issue and if it does, some kind of two-way-pegging would take care of that.

Bitcoin came totally out of left field, who knows what's next when enough people have had enough years thinking in blockchain... I remember when I started programming a long while back and read a book called "Thinking in Java" which totally changed the way I think and even they way I viewed the world after that... I think bitcoin has the power to change the world on a fundamental level that will take a few years for most to even begin to realize and after that it'll be a household word, like internet spoon...
legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 11405
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
yer cause the FBI is going to drop a market sell on Stamp  Huh

Bitcoins are fungible. Whoever is buying FBI coins will not be buying on Stamp, so the effect is the same. Whoever is buying FBI coins might sell on stamp, however.

Let's just say that if I were to buy 100,000 BTC at auction from the FBI for let's say 20 million dollars, you're damn right I'd dump a few thousand of them on the exchanges. That is a real downside risk.

Nobody is getting 100K BTC for more than 50% off of retail.  Bitcoin is just waaaaaayyy too liquid for that level of a discount. They would be getting fucked up lucky if they were able to get 100K BTC for 20% off of retail, maximum.  More likely anyone is going to be paying at least 90 to 95% retail on such a liquid asset.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women


Forgive me if I'm being ignorant but

Why would you do that and not just pay with fiat if fiat is the start and end goal?

Because you're buying the oil from Iran.

Quote
How does an alternative crypto currency with even less liquidity solve that problem?

It wouldn't in that exact case, but I'm sure you could imagine a scenario where some other crypto is temporarily more liquid than BTC.  When the U.S. was on the gold standard, many small purchases were completed with silver.

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
2h macd cross was a pretty strong bear signal in the past weeks/days, lets see what happens
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
The Feds claim they've already sold over 3 Million dollars worth. The whom? does anybody know?

If they're smart they sold the coins all over the country via LocalBitcoins.com so they could then arrest all those people for operating an exchange without a license or disregarding AML rules.

That's entrapment. Local cops do that kind of shit all the time, but the Feds at least usually pretend to follow the rules when they could so easily be shown to be actually initiating the "crime" they are prosecuting.

I do not believe that this scenario would legally be considered entrapment.

I've had this conversation with cops several times. Nothing is ever entrapment. OK, Give me an example of what YOU consider entrapment.

A cop is not the person to ask. An officers job is to catch people committing crimes and arrest them. You don't get to scream "entrapment!" and walk away without an arrest. Your lawyer just gets an additional potential defense to get you off.

First two relevant (as in, not yahoo answers) google search results for "entrapment examples" turns up:

http://nationalparalegal.edu/public_documents/courseware_asp_files/criminalLaw/defenses/Entrapment.asp

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/entrapment-basics-33987.html

Some copy and pastes from those sites, for the lazy.

Case Example 1. Mary-Anne Berry is charged with selling illegal drugs to an undercover police officer. Berry testifies that the drugs were for her personal use and that the reason she sold some to the officer is that at a party, the officer falsely said that she wanted some drugs for her mom, who was in a lot of pain. According to Berry, the officer even assured Berry that she wasn't a cop and wasn't setting Berry up. The police officer's actions do not amount to entrapment. Police officers are allowed to tell lies. The officer gave Berry an opportunity to break the law, but the officer did not engage in extreme or overbearing behavior.

Case Example 2. Mary-Anne Berry is charged with selling illegal drugs to an undercover police officer. Berry testifies that, "The drugs were for my personal use. For nearly two weeks, the undercover officer stopped by my apartment and pleaded with me to sell her some of my stash because her mom was extremely sick and needed the drugs for pain relief. I kept refusing. When the officer told me that the drugs would allow her mom to be comfortable for the few days she had left to live, I broke down and sold her some drugs. She immediately arrested me." The undercover agent's repeated entreaties and lies are sufficiently extreme to constitute entrapment and result in a not guilty verdict.

Case Example. Let's say Jim is charged with serving as a lookout during a liquor store robbery carried out by a street gang. Jim claims that Snitch, a neighborhood friend who turned out to be an undercover police officer, entrapped him by telling him that he had to participate in the robbery or Snitch would be unable to protect him from gang retribution. In a state that employs an objective test for entrapment, a jury decides whether Snitch's actions would have induced a normally law-abiding person to participate in the robbery. In a state that employs a subjective test for entrapment, the prosecutor can offer evidence of Jim's predisposition to commit the crime, including that Jim had a lengthy rap sheet and that he was anxious to join the street gang and wanted to prove his mettle by participating in a violent crime. A jury would then decide whether Jim participated in the robbery out of his own willingness to do so, regardless of Snitch's actions.

1) Fred, a law abiding citizen, is walking home from work one afternoon when Wilma, a prostitute, approaches him and offers her services for the price of fifty dollars. Fred has never used the services of a prostitute before, but he decides to give it a try and he takes Wilma up on her offer. Wilma leads Fred to a nearby motel room and, once inside, she identifies herself as an undercover police officer and arrests Fred. In this situation, an entrapment defense will probably not be available to Fred because Fred responded readily to the opportunity to commit this crime. Therefore, although Wilma provided Fred with the opportunity to commit the crime, she did not induce him to do it.

2) Fred, a law abiding citizen, is walking home from work one day when Wilma, a prostitute, approaches him and offers him her services for the price of fifty dollars. Fred tells Wilma he is not interested and continues walking. Over the next several blocks Wilma follows Fred and repeatedly offers her services to him, which Fred repeatedly rejects. However, after a few minutes, Wilma’s repeated offers pique Fred’s curiosity and he decides to give it a try. Wilma then leads Fred to a nearby motel room and once inside she identifies herself as an undercover police officer and arrests Fred. In this case, Fred will have the entrapment defense at his disposal because Wilma repeatedly requested that Fred commit the crime and it was only after several rejections by Fred that Wilma succeeded in getting him to actually commit the crime. Therefore, in this case, Wilma has actually induced Fred, who does not seem to be predisposed to committing this kind of crime, into committing the crime.

Note how the localbitcoins scenario involves no undue pressure to buy, and it would be quite easy to convince a jury that you would have bought those bitcoins regardless of whether you had seen their ad.

legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Jump to: