Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 28916. (Read 26609400 times)

No, I won't let that slide. That's the worst kind of argument: "If A happens, it proves my point. And if not-A happens, that proves my point as well."

Unless you can come up with a "wealth/productivity baseline" that is guaranteed solely by technological progress, the only (sort of) objective comparison we have is between different forms of states, and how they compare economically. And a 'heavy state' economy that outperforms several 'low state' economies *is* something that a libertarian needs to account for in proper detail, otherwise he is just as ideologically motivated as the statists he despises.

It took 1.5 years from June 2011. Why do you think it couldn't take as long, or even longer than that now?

Isn't it about time for a rally?  It has been a few months.  I would like to think I am a fairly patient person but I have things I want to spend some money on.  C'mon Bitcoin.  Be the "Little Engine that Could."  Let's get the choo choo started.  If you close your eyes and say, "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can"  perhaps we can get this going! 

A mostly free market can support quite a lot of nonsense. Heck, even the minor capital reforms the Chinese have allowed have boosted their economy enormously.

With the productivity increase that technology has brought, we should be seeing astounding progress right now. As it is, even with what's going on, things are still pretty good. It's that hard to keep people down.

Agreed. But the argument becomes a bit nuanced then, no?

"Statism doesn't work for very large countries".

And the conclusions (assuming the above is true) would also be a bit more subtle: you could fix large dysfunctional nation states either by breaking them down into more manageable units (c.f. "Bioregionalism"), or by reducing the power of the state. In which case I suspect a break-up into smaller sub-nations is becoming more likely as well.

Not quite... you'll need big brother to take care of more borders...

Anyone got any news on the current dip? What's with all the dumping? Why the current dowtrend?

Especially when the population is divided into a million little factions.  Nobody trusts each other so cannot accomplish anything without big brothers help.  The best way to sort that out is smaller borders.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110603162634/petoriathelittlecountrythatcould/images/c/c9/250px-Petoria.jpg

http://www.youthunitedpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Petoria.gif

Quick thought: I'd say size has a lot to do with is size... large unmanageable bureaucracies are a sociopaths dream come ture

True but i dont see the point for countries that are already failing both socially and economically to keep up with statism?!

Fun! I'll jump into the discussion if you don't mind, and play devil's advocate for a moment (I'm personally mostly agnostic I guess in the discusion statists vs. libertarians/anarchists)...

How do countries like Switzerland, Sweden, Norway fit in?

They are, by all meaningful definitions, heavily leaning towards "strong state", but are economically incredibly powerful (per capita, which is the relevant metric here).

Sure, you can explain part of that by independent causes (Norway: natural resources, Switzerland: banking culture), but hardly all of it. The way it looks to me, at least in /some/ countries "statism" works just fine, from an economical perspective.

Nope, I'm not a gun toting, survival of the fittest type, but I do have more faith in humanity and I believe that when it comes down to it, people end up helping each other... I don't buy into that apocalyptic Hollywood type crap fed to everyone in which people turn in to monsters and everything goes Mad Max... no way, we don't live in the dark ages anymore, just go an look for positive videos on the internet and you'll find plenty, it's just not 'news'. Apparently the New York blackout turned into a more of a block party than looters and rioters and strangers invited strangers into their homes for the night... people aren't all mad you know.

My view is that if you create positions of power, you will have certain types of people (psychopaths, sociopaths etc.) who will gravitate towards those positions because of the advantages it affords them. Most normal people just want to get on with life and enjoy it, but the power structures allow them to be taken advantage of... it's just the way things work. It's not that all humans are evil, it's just the power structures we live in that allow a few evil to rule over the many good... and not by chance in my opinion.

If you get rid of centralized power, you get rid of centralized corruption... automatically.

The argument that no roads, schools, hospitals etc. would be built without government is an old one, but is not very valid because most of the best roads are always private toll roads, government roads suck simply because they are made by companies on govenrment payroll which everyone know is a free ride, that also just the way things are. The best hospitals and schools are also private. I understand your argument that the poor can't afford these things, but that's exactly why there are charity organizations, those won't just go away without the gov. If everyone had more money from not paying taxes for things they don't use, then there would be more money to go round and it wold lift everyone up and more people might help poor people... just look at Kiva today...

"Public forum". Do you have a problem understanding that concept? There are PMs available if you choose to have private conversations.

And no one was talking about any kind of Utopia. (That tends to be the realm of the collectivists - Just a little more government and everything will be wonderful. No, we just need to get the right people in power, honest.). You bringing that into things is what is known as a "straw man" argument.

Libertarians don't shoot for Utopia. We just believe that voluntary interactions are not only preferable from an idealistic standpoint, they also produce a superior (though still far from perfect) outcome.

The formula you describe is correct however your results aren't. The argument you make about tradingview I knew about so I made sure I compared apples with apples (I'm no fool):

TradingView MACD Histogram Previous 30 Minutes:



-1.17

BitcoinWisdom MACD Histogram Previous 30 Minutes:



-2.2

Bitcoincharts.com MACD Histogram Previous 30 Minutes:



You can't hover over the Histogram to be sure, but it looks close to 1.2 (the same as TradingView has)

Dickens was often a despicable liar. I'd be very wary about taking anything he wrote as the truth.

Sure, they'll have more money and be "makin' it rain" with all the extra proceeds from not paying taxes. Except, oh wait, their wages will probably be less than the taxes they would have paid, since there won't be any government mandated minimum wage anymore. "Oh, you want $7 an hour? Sorry, this dude's willing to work for $4. Can I get you to come down to $3.50?" That's before we consider all the price collusion they'll now face at the stores they buy goods at. They might be able to barter, but if they can't afford the privatized protection, who is to stop them from getting robbed?

This is assuming you don't mean that "omg I want the government to die so we can live survival of the fittest style" kind of anarchy. I know others tend to toss people into that mold of anarchy as soon as the word comes up, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't want to pull out your bat and shotgun and win your food the old fashioned way, but if this IS what you meant, I imagine would leave most of the poor pillaged and murdered inside of 2 months by other poor, since the victim can't afford the protection and the thief can't really afford food. Presumably the thief will be "fitter" than the victim. EDIT: This should be addressed to the 2nd guy, not you.

See why this situation sucks for the poor?

We're both speculating, to be sure, but it's definitely not as simple as some of you are making it.


Please show me where I said that. I said SOMEONE will have to do it, and they're going to want to make something for it, which is understandable. The problem comes for those who can't afford it, and read my logic above for why they likely won't be able to.

"can a monkey live without bones?"
- K. Pilkington

rofl. i like you noobie  

According to to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MACD or http://stockcharts.com/help/doku.php?id=chart_school:technical_indicators:moving_average_conve

MACD formula is

MACD = [stockPrices,12]EMA - [stockPrices,26]EMA
signal = [MACD,9]EMA
histogram = MACD – signal

Standard MACD uses EMA to calculate signal. Trading View uses Simple MA to calculate by default, If uncheck tradingview's MACD option "Simple MA(Signal Line)", the chart will be same.

fair point and i must admit that i partly agree with ErisDiscordia's argumentation in his last post.
The only problem i see is the transformation towards such changes.
As these companies have already gained a certain amount of power & money i can't figure out a smooth process there.
I rather expect them manifesting the status quo even further through cartels and nepotism when governments pull back regulation in certain sectors.
this could derange into companies owning complete parts of cities and simply replacing the governmental structures as we have them today. (which would definitively be at the expense of the lower classes because of the purely profit-driven structure)

But as often seen during human history perhaps shit must hit the fan until a real change can occur.
Another problem i see is the mentioned voluntary support for the poorer part of the pyramid.
Watching the dissolving and individualistic orientied society in these days, i always get the feeling the masses are so used to the dog-eat-dog world
that they unlearned what it means to act social and really take part in a community.

Although i have to add there are positive events from time to time that give me hope for a reverse trend and this development could change over the next decades.

Nah, not unless you type in your sleep.  And unless you're ErisDiscordia's alt account, you are also not being spoken to.  But since you weighed in...  What is it that's bothering you?

This is a new account with 6min. post limit, so shoot for coherency in your reply.