Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 29551.

BitThink

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Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 08:52:02 PM

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:46:40 PM

Quote from: fonzie on February 17, 2014, 08:31:09 PM

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:27:39 PM

No offend, but a speculater like you contributes nothing to bitcoin, no matter you win or lose money. Therefore, your interest on BTC really matters no so much. If anyone interested in bitcoin is just want to buy low and sell high, then BTC better to die now.

So why do you buy Bitcoin, and not just donate to Bitcoin related start ups, if it´s not about making profit?

I buy bitcoin because I believe it have a chance to be a reliable store of value, so that I can hedge the risk of inflation. Moreover, I also want to be rich, but prefer to be rich because bitcoin is more successful, not because someone unfortunately buy BTC from me at a large loss.

If you buy bitcoins to store value, then you probably don't know much about money.
Bitcoin value is only held up by speculation, so trusting bitcoin to hold your wealth is giving your money to the bitcoin hodlers and trust that they won't cash out. That is naive as an investment and a naive way to deal with wealth.
If you want to store value, then buy resources like rare-earth metals, that are in constant demand together with technological advancements and their supply is constantly getting tighter. Bitcoin is not rare, it's only decided by a group of people that it is rare. And you are also trusting a group of unknown people that it will stay rare.

I think you have confused value with price. The price of bitcoin now is manipulated by a few people with the help of the exchanges. The value of Bitcoin, however, lies in that it's the only scheme which provides a reliable accountant system without requiring trust on any centralized authority, shared all over the world, and backed up by a huge computing power.

You can speculate on its price as much as you want, but the value of bitcoin is much more than that. How it will change the world is still largely unknown and we just see the tip of the iceberg. That's again why I said the speculators really do not matter to the future of bitcoin.

Erdogan

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Quote from: Erdogan on February 17, 2014, 08:44:32 PM

We need lots of buy-hold-buy-mores, and lots of successful daytraders.

... and we need the bad daytraders to feed the good daytraders, and we need the ignorant nay-sayers to slow down the rise, so the visionary late-comers have a chance.

JorgeStolfi

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Quote from: mellowyellow on February 17, 2014, 08:45:25 PM

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/petition-to-remove-mark-karpeles-from-the-board-of-the-bitcoin-foundation

I don't think that the Bitcoin Foundation can or should be salvaged. Since the other board members haven't given any sign that they are displeased with Mark's actions at MtGOX, one cannot assume that they are better than him.

Besides, it is not clear whose interests the Foundation is supposed to represent: small investors, big investors, traders, exchange owners, developers, or people who just want bitcoin to be used for commerce?

Methinks that bitcoin owners should create an independent Bitcoin Investors Association, supported by fixed low fees and accepting no donations (so that it does not become a Bitcoin Whales Association). Its first priority should be to write a set of standards for exchanges (including transparent accounting), audit them, and certify them for compliance.

aminorex

legendary

Activity: 1596

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Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 08:52:02 PM

If you buy bitcoins to store value, then you probably don't know much about money.

Or, he thinks long-term.

Quote

Bitcoin value is only held up by speculation

Definitely not true. Bitcoin adds a great deal of economic value.

Quote

If you want to store value, then buy resources like rare-earth metals, that are in constant demand together with technological advancements and their supply is constantly getting tighter.

"Rare-earth" is a bit of a misnomer. They aren't actually all that rare. And the supply-demand equation fluctuates a great deal. I would definitely consider bitcoin to be a much safer investment than rare-earth commodities, which are not so easy to physically hold, by the way. There may be some rare-earth supply-chain enterprises which are fairly safe investments, but they are unlikely to qualify as stores of value, or to provide such speculative upside as bitcoin.

Quote

Bitcoin is not rare, it's only decided by a group of people that it is rare. And you are also trusting a group of unknown people that it will stay rare.

A very large group of mostly known people whose interests are fairly predictably aligned with my own.

delphic

full member

Activity: 378

Merit: 100

Quote from: BitChick on February 17, 2014, 06:46:41 PM

Quote from: delphic on February 17, 2014, 06:39:48 PM

Quote from: octaft on February 17, 2014, 06:29:27 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 17, 2014, 05:21:20 PM

Quote from: delphic on February 17, 2014, 05:01:00 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 17, 2014, 04:54:11 PM

I had an epiphany at lunch. Gox will succeed in spite of all the crap they are pulling. Why do I think this? Because in a very weird way Gox has created the perfect gambling web site. People see the undervalued or overvalued price and with the same rush of adrenalin they get as a "fun" trip to Vegas, they throw their money in with hopes to take advantage of the "game" even if they may very well lose everything.

I thought about having an epiphany at lunchtime too, but local deli was out of them.

Sorry for the incorrect grammar.

C'mon. Give a girl a break. I am from California. You guys are lucky I am not saying things like "I was totally stoked that during lunch I had this crazy like epiphany dude!"

I am doing my best here. Wink

Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see the error in "I had an epiphany at lunch." It's a bit of a stretch, since epiphany implies that something mundane led you to your flash of enlightenment (think: Dr. House), but as far as I know it is not out-and-out incorrect.

I don't fault Bitchicks grammar, I was just feigning ignorance and imagining that an epiphany was edible.

Delphic, your impressive poetry yesterday has shown a light on my inferior writing abilities. I say that with utmost sincerity, BTW.

Here is a recap for those that missed it:

Quote

Quote from: delphic on February 16, 2014, 02:32:05 PM

Quote

Quote from: JorgeStolfi on February 16, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
Startled at the stillness broken, by a crash so rudely woken,
"Doubtless", said I, "news should matter of the overstock and stores;
call upon a Wall Street master, stop the unmerciful disaster,
it's falling fast and falling faster..." till the charts one burden bore,
"Monday morrow he will fail us... as he has failed us before."
And withdrawals? "Nevermore."

And the Karpeles, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the blue ball of plastic just above the wooden floor;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his bitcoins on the floor;
And my coins from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted--nevermore!

Thank you, though E A Poe should get a bit of the credit (say, 98%)

BitThink

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Activity: 882

Merit: 1000

Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 08:45:39 PM

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:27:39 PM

No offend, but a speculater like you contributes nothing to bitcoin, no matter you win or lose money. Therefore, your interest on BTC really matters no so much. If everyone interested in bitcoin is just want to buy low and sell high, then BTC better to die now.

But speculators who chant Choo Choo and are delusional about the future contribute more?
For instance how do you contribute to bitcoin? or how does windjc?

Don't take me wrong, I am not saying that everyone should contribute to BTC or stop speculating. I am just saying that BTC is not a pure zero sum game for speculators. Therefore, its destiny is not determined by speculators.

Bitcoin has a great potential to grow up due to a lot of those who contribute to the codes and create businesses on it. Those are the one who really determines the future of the bitcoin, not us (no matter we are bulls or bears here).

Erdogan

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Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

Quote from: aminorex on February 17, 2014, 08:44:58 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on February 17, 2014, 08:39:23 PM

Wait a minute... a speculator that is wrong all the time, amplifies the ups and downs. A speculator that correctly foresees the highs and the lows and take corresponding action, will dampen the swings. If all speculators were really good, the swings would be wiped out. You could also say that a bad speculator is good for the good speculator. A buyer and holder (or a holder and buyer...) dampens the grand shock of implementing the whole thing.

A "speculator" exercising a reversion strategy will tend to dampen price swings. A *speculator* exercising a momentum strategy will tend to force price swings.

You could be right that the momentum strategy could initially force price swings, but I still think that if successful, the net effect will be dampening. To be succesful, he will overall necessarily have to buy low and sell high. Please explain if not correct.

aminorex

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Activity: 1596

Merit: 1030

Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 08:45:39 PM

For instance how do you contribute to bitcoin?

I contribute by evangelism, by ownership, by mining, by speculation, by philanthropy, by attempting to be a responsible member of the community. I may one day contribute code, or participate in an infrastructure business, but for now I am too busy with my day job and other hobbies.

kkaspar

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 100

banned but not broken

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:46:40 PM

Quote from: fonzie on February 17, 2014, 08:31:09 PM

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:27:39 PM

No offend, but a speculater like you contributes nothing to bitcoin, no matter you win or lose money. Therefore, your interest on BTC really matters no so much. If anyone interested in bitcoin is just want to buy low and sell high, then BTC better to die now.

So why do you buy Bitcoin, and not just donate to Bitcoin related start ups, if it´s not about making profit?

I buy bitcoin because I believe it have a chance to be a reliable store of value, so that I can hedge the risk of inflation. Moreover, I also want to be rich, but prefer to be rich because bitcoin is more successful, not because someone unfortunately buy BTC from me at a large loss.

If you buy bitcoins to store value, then you probably don't know much about money.
Bitcoin value is only held up by speculation, so trusting bitcoin to hold your wealth is giving your money to the bitcoin hodlers and trust that they won't cash out. That is naive as an investment and a naive way to deal with wealth.
If you want to store value, then buy resources like rare-earth metals, that are in constant demand together with technological advancements and their supply is constantly getting tighter. Bitcoin is not rare, it's only decided by a group of people that it is rare. And you are also trusting a group of unknown people that it will stay rare.

fonzie

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Moderator

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:46:40 PM

Quote from: fonzie on February 17, 2014, 08:31:09 PM

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:27:39 PM

No offend, but a speculater like you contributes nothing to bitcoin, no matter you win or lose money. Therefore, your interest on BTC really matters no so much. If anyone interested in bitcoin is just want to buy low and sell high, then BTC better to die now.

So why do you buy Bitcoin, and not just donate to Bitcoin related start ups, if it´s not about making profit?

I buy bitcoin because I believe it have a chance to be a reliable store of value, so that I can hedge the risk of inflation. Moreover, I also want to be rich, but prefer to be rich because bitcoin is more successful, not because someone unfortunately buy BTC from me at a large loss.

Sounds fair Wink

traderCJ

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: Erdogan on February 17, 2014, 08:39:23 PM

Wait a minute... a speculator that is wrong all the time, amplifies the ups and downs. A speculator that correctly foresees the highs and the lows and take corresponding action, will dampen the swings. If all speculators were really good, the swings would be wiped out. You could also say that a bad speculator is good for the good speculator. A buyer and holder (or a holder and buyer...) dampens the grand shock of implementing the whole thing.

Derivatives stabilize the underlying. Speculation is both good and unavoidable. There is a contingent of people who will support Bitcoin no matter what. As a result, they naturally clash with speculators from time to time. This happens in all markets. Believers vs speculators. Moving on ..

aminorex

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1030

Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: mellowyellow on February 17, 2014, 08:45:25 PM

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/petition-to-remove-mark-karpeles-from-the-board-of-the-bitcoin-foundation

How about Vessenes? I mean, has there ever been so much fail at the same table?

aminorex

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1030

Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 08:43:26 PM

There won't be a rise just because there is strong support at the bottom, there also has to be strong support for lift, but it aint there. Without lift the bottom will only weaken and weaken until it breaks.

Now this analysis I can deal with. In fact, you've described the reason why I have some fiat in reserve. There is a substantial likelihood of an impending final capitulation.

BitThink

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Activity: 882

Merit: 1000

Quote from: fonzie on February 17, 2014, 08:31:09 PM

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:27:39 PM

No offend, but a speculater like you contributes nothing to bitcoin, no matter you win or lose money. Therefore, your interest on BTC really matters no so much. If anyone interested in bitcoin is just want to buy low and sell high, then BTC better to die now.

So why do you buy Bitcoin, and not just donate to Bitcoin related start ups, if it´s not about making profit?

I buy bitcoin because I believe it have a chance to be a reliable store of value, so that I can hedge the risk of inflation. Moreover, I also want to be rich, but prefer to be rich because bitcoin is more successful, not because someone unfortunately buy BTC from me at a large loss.

kkaspar

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 100

banned but not broken

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:27:39 PM

No offend, but a speculater like you contributes nothing to bitcoin, no matter you win or lose money. Therefore, your interest on BTC really matters no so much. If everyone interested in bitcoin is just want to buy low and sell high, then BTC better to die now.

But speculators who chant Choo Choo and are delusional about the future contribute more?
For instance how do you contribute to bitcoin? or how does windjc?

mellowyellow

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/petition-to-remove-mark-karpeles-from-the-board-of-the-bitcoin-foundation

aminorex

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1030

Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: Erdogan on February 17, 2014, 08:39:23 PM

Wait a minute... a speculator that is wrong all the time, amplifies the ups and downs. A speculator that correctly foresees the highs and the lows and take corresponding action, will dampen the swings. If all speculators were really good, the swings would be wiped out. You could also say that a bad speculator is good for the good speculator. A buyer and holder (or a holder and buyer...) dampens the grand shock of implementing the whole thing.

A "speculator" exercising a reversion strategy will tend to dampen price swings. A *speculator* exercising a momentum strategy will tend to force price swings.

Erdogan

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

We need lots of buy-hold-buy-mores, and lots of successful daytraders.

kkaspar

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 100

banned but not broken

Quote from: windjc on February 17, 2014, 08:26:23 PM

Would you like a nice Cheddar to go with that whine?

To my point. You bought in October/November. You are new to bitcoin. No one is trying to convince you that we are going to the moon tomorrow. Read my posts. Over and over and over again I state we are in a bear market and we might hit the 200 sma average on Stamp before reversing. That average is at $450+ today and in about 4-5 weeks it will be at around $550. So we are well on our way to full correction, in my opinion.

There. You happy now?

Btw, China doesn't matter. You think that was Chinese money going into Bistamp and Gox? It was money from all over the world.

It doesn't mater how new I am. Before 2013 bitcoin was just play money for buying drugs and the entire market system revolved around that utility. Right now bitcoin is at the doorstep in becoming a legal financial tool. This moment is crucial, if it succeeds it will rise much higher, but if it fails, then it won't get another chance. So, I don't really care about your bitcoin experience pre-2013. I just care if bitcoin will get past that doorstep or not. And currently it seems like it is slowly falling back.
And based on what, do you see that the price is actually rising not just preparing another deeper drop?
All I can see is relatively strong bottom resistance and very little lift. But without lift the bottom resistance is weakening and we can see this through most of January. There won't be a rise just because there is strong support at the bottom, there also has to be strong support for lift, but it aint there. Without lift the bottom will only weaken and weaken until it breaks.

Erdogan

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Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

Quote from: windjc on February 17, 2014, 08:29:13 PM

Quote from: BitThink on February 17, 2014, 08:27:39 PM

Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 08:18:18 PM

Quote from: windjc on February 17, 2014, 08:06:13 PM

Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 08:04:21 PM

Quote from: windjc on February 17, 2014, 08:02:11 PM

Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 07:59:24 PM

Quote from: aminorex on February 17, 2014, 07:47:02 PM

Quote from: kkaspar on February 17, 2014, 07:34:17 PM

It makes me laugh that "experts" here are actually saying that this is an permanent upwards trend, even if it's not still sure if MtGox can return it's customers $ and BTC.

do you think the fate of gox bears strongly on the long-term value of btc? if so, why?

It's because that's what most have been waiting for. A solid reason to call bitcoin an Ponzi scheme. If Gox goes bad, then it will be played out like bitcoin is actually just a tool for people like Karpeles to prey on their victims.

~~You have vision~~. Bitcoin has been through WAY worse than this. And it keeps on keeping on. ~~You are just caught up in the moment with no historical vantage point.~~ Its laughable that you think a healthy market means one with no risks. Go trade rocks for sand if you want no risk. ~~Otherwise be quiet please.~~

~~(personal and historically unsubstantiated angry opinion)~~ f.a.c.t.

I bought at 200$, when bitcoin was actually covered by an famous news program in China that is known for representing the Chinese government stance. I sold at around the start of December, when there were no volume to support the price going up and it got clear that China won't have any legal potential with bitcoin. I only bought back once around 800, for couple of hours after I sold again. The last reason was only because I was intoxicated and bored.
So, you religious/lying sack of excrement, don't tell me about having no vision. Pricks like you have been telling me 2 month, that NOW it seems like the price is picking up again, making up childish reasons like "China doesn't even matter!". And for all those two months I held my own decision with only winning by doing this. The slow downfall just continues and continues and it's not difficult to see why.
Delusional pricks like you make me feel shame of my interest in bitcoin, because you do make this place look like a cult or a gang of crooks.

No offend, but a speculater like you contributes nothing to bitcoin, no matter you win or lose money. Therefore, your interest on BTC really matters no so much. If anyone interested in bitcoin is just want to buy low and sell high, then BTC better to die now.

+1

Wait a minute... a speculator that is wrong all the time, amplifies the ups and downs. A speculator that correctly foresees the highs and the lows and take corresponding action, will dampen the swings. If all speculators were really good, the swings would be wiped out. You could also say that a bad speculator is good for the good speculator. A buyer and holder (or a holder and buyer...) dampens the grand shock of implementing the whole thing.

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