Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 33291.

MickeyT2008

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Quote from: bito on May 18, 2013, 02:04:52 PM

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 01:57:32 PM

You have the right to disagree, all I'm suggesting is that we get on with discussing the topic of this forum rather than bitching at each other, there might not be any arguing going on now but there has been over the last few days. However, I haven't noticed you doing this with anyone so please understand that I wasn't referring to you, nor am I going to point the finger at anyone else either.

The people who actually were arguing don't even seem to be here any more, which means there's no point us discussing it so let's move on...

Anyway, as I said, let's get back on topic here. Having said that things are moving so slowly that there isn't much to say anyway, it just seems to be mostly bots swapping satosis at the moment. Hopefully things will pick up a bit later, but it's the weekend so maybe not. Maybe by Monday the trader bots will have gone insane and made multimillionaires of us all, hey?

Of course I have the right to disagree, we all have that.

What I am trying to say is that I prefer petty flame wars which happen when volumes are low, over the endless repetitive pointless posts (and images) when the price is moving.

Speculation is about talking about something that might happen, not when it IS HAPPENING.

Can we stop discussing this now please? It's all been said already

bito

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Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 01:57:32 PM

You have the right to disagree, all I'm suggesting is that we get on with discussing the topic of this forum rather than bitching at each other, there might not be any arguing going on now but there has been over the last few days. However, I haven't noticed you doing this with anyone so please understand that I wasn't referring to you, nor am I going to point the finger at anyone else either.

The people who actually were arguing don't even seem to be here any more, which means there's no point us discussing it so let's move on...

Anyway, as I said, let's get back on topic here. Having said that things are moving so slowly that there isn't much to say anyway, it just seems to be mostly bots swapping satosis at the moment. Hopefully things will pick up a bit later, but it's the weekend so maybe not. Maybe by Monday the trader bots will have gone insane and made multimillionaires of us all, hey?

Of course I have the right to disagree, we all have that.

What I am trying to say is that I prefer petty flame wars which happen when volumes are low, over the endless repetitive pointless posts (and images) when the price is moving.

Speculation is about talking about something that might happen, not when it IS HAPPENING.

ChartBuddy

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Coinseeker

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On topic, I nailed the speculation last night and looks like more of the same today, especially with the low volume. Does anybody see anything other than this same flat trend, that could very well last through the weekend? Up, down, sideways?

MickeyT2008

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You have the right to disagree, all I'm suggesting is that we get on with discussing the topic of this forum rather than bitching at each other, there might not be any arguing going on now but there has been over the last few days. However, I haven't noticed you doing this with anyone so please understand that I wasn't referring to you, nor am I going to point the finger at anyone else either.

The people who actually were arguing don't even seem to be here any more, which means there's no point us discussing it so let's move on...

Anyway, as I said, let's get back on topic here. Having said that things are moving so slowly that there isn't much to say anyway, it just seems to be mostly bots swapping satosis at the moment. Hopefully things will pick up a bit later, but it's the weekend so maybe not. Maybe by Monday the trader bots will have gone insane and made multimillionaires of us all, hey?

bito

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Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 01:33:08 PM

Quote from: bito on May 18, 2013, 01:22:05 PM

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 10:44:07 AM

Often when trading is slow this thread descends into a petty flame war, it's very boring.

Hmm, I'm new here, but IMHO when trading is fast the price is moving fast and most of what happens is a mother load of redundant posts about the price change. I've been reading for a month before my registration date btw.

I'm not saying that boring flame wars don't happen when trading is slow. What I am saying is that when trading is slow I find the ratio of interesting information to noise in this speculation thread is much easier consume than when trading is fast.

So I dispute your proposition that slow trading results in a boring thread. Unless I have misunderstood that the point is excitement rather than speculation.

I'm not saying that the thread itself is boring, just that pointless flame wars can be. I'm here to try to gain some insight into trading better as opposed to an insight into how some people don't like other people, that I couldn't care less about. Different people have different views, which is to be expected but let's keep it (reasonably) polite, hey?

Hey, I am being polite! Maybe I forgot a smilie somewhere???

But I suppose here begins a pointless point - I stand by my original statement, and your response amounts to a straw man argument, because you have misinterpreted my point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Don't take it personally my friend, no offence meant, I just disagree with what you have said.

MickeyT2008

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This account was recently hacked

Quote from: bito on May 18, 2013, 01:22:05 PM

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 10:44:07 AM

Often when trading is slow this thread descends into a petty flame war, it's very boring.

Hmm, I'm new here, but IMHO when trading is fast the price is moving fast and most of what happens is a mother load of redundant posts about the price change. I've been reading for a month before my registration date btw.

I'm not saying that boring flame wars don't happen when trading is slow. What I am saying is that when trading is slow I find the ratio of interesting information to noise in this speculation thread is much easier consume than when trading is fast.

So I dispute your proposition that slow trading results in a boring thread. Unless I have misunderstood that the point is excitement rather than speculation.

I'm not saying that the thread itself is boring, just that pointless flame wars can be. (I admit that sometimes they are amusing). I'm here to try to gain some insight into trading better as opposed to an insight into how some people don't like other people, that I couldn't care less about. Different people have different views, which is to be expected but let's keep it (reasonably) polite, hey?

What I do like is reading other people's analysis of the BTC situation, that's what I'm here for. I try to take in what everyone is saying and then draw my own conclusions about it, rather than following what's written in a sheeplike way. If someone says that the price is crashing and I sell out, but it goes up then that's not their fault as they were just giving their opinion - it's my fault as it would be my own decision to have sold at that point. There always seems to be people saying opposite things, with the unpredictability of BTC that's to be expected but all views and charts are welcome information so far as I'm concerned.

bito

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Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 10:44:07 AM

Often when trading is slow this thread descends into a petty flame war, it's very boring.

Hmm, I'm new here, but IMHO when trading is fast the price is moving fast and most of what happens is a mother load of redundant posts about the price change. I've been reading for a month before my registration date btw.

I'm not saying that boring flame wars don't happen when trading is slow. What I am saying is that when trading is slow I find the ratio of interesting information to noise in this speculation thread is much easier consume than when trading is fast.

So I dispute your proposition that slow trading results in a boring thread. Unless I have misunderstood that the point is excitement rather than speculation.

dexX7

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 12:35:52 PM

Quote from: Ultraviolet on May 18, 2013, 12:28:41 PM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 12:18:54 PM

I wasn't aware of that. But, due to the design of the network, you can't do naked shorting I would think. So, shorting would mean, borrowing actual shares from someones account and then selling them and promising to buy them back at a later date. I would also think that you would have to cover the sell in cash and would be subject to margin calls as well. I don't know if shorting BTC nor derivatives, could really ever "work" at quite the same was as they do in the stock market. For one, most people don't keep their coins in the exchanges - right there you can't borrow them for sale.

It works on Bitfinex because there's a pool of USD and BTC that's lent on a P2P system in exchange for interest. USD interest is very high and BTC interest is very low.

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

~~What is a naked short?~~ Bitfinex is a great example, I at least like their concept, because it's actually "from the people, for the people" due to their P2P lending system. There are margin requirements, which by the way, could be one point the CFTC could regulate. (the requirements)

I'm not sure if I like it or not, because our overall goal should be a higher price, but I'm not sure, if my thought process isn't to shortsighted and this is an valid argument at all, because they have to buy back the coins when closing the position..

Anyway, you missed one importent point when it comes to money: where money can be made, there will always be people who try to exploit that. A current example would be the "true believers", who would never ever sell a Bitcoin, vs. the speculators, who trade the swings and are selling, buying lower etc.

Another thing to think about.. when we trade, we aren't actually transfering Bitcoins on the exchanges, but I assume, all Bitcoins are backed up by real Bitcoins.

I've read that the "real" finance does that at an even greater extent - many CFD (?) brokers simulate shorts etc. within their system, which results in a state, where traders play against the house and not against the market.

oroboras

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:35:51 AM

Well, that ought to keep Dr Evil off our backs for a while Tongue

ChartBuddy

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Abandon

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 12:56:51 PM

Quote from: Pale Phoenix on May 18, 2013, 12:54:33 PM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 12:35:52 PM

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

Right now there are approximately 2200 coins lent out to short sellers and another 1800 available to borrow on Bitfinex, so around 500k USD at today's price. Not a massive sum, but enough to make shorting viable for traders on that platform.

You do have to keep assets on the exchange to cover a potential margin call, and no, there is no naked shorting. Technically, Regulation SHO prohibits naked shorting on U.S. stock exchanges too, not that it doesn't still happen.

Well, a 2000 BTC sale can for sure kill a rally (smaller one). I would think for shorting to really really matter, we would have to be talking in the 10's of thousands? Thoughts.

Thanks for the information by the way. We have to look at everything, even those things we don't like to see. Shocked

There's many other bitcoin brokerages that are coming out, that allow for shorting and leverage, I have seen at least three others.

Right now Bitfinex is in a closed loop with the other small exchanges, that do not have direct contact with Mt. Gox. Bitfinex not any more for now. Bitfinex currently trades only with itself and Bitstamp.

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Quote from: Pale Phoenix on May 18, 2013, 12:54:33 PM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 12:35:52 PM

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

Right now there are approximately 2200 coins lent out to short sellers and another 1800 available to borrow on Bitfinex, so around 500k USD at today's price. Not a massive sum, but enough to make shorting viable for traders on that platform.

You do have to keep assets on the exchange to cover a potential margin call, and no, there is no naked shorting. Technically, Regulation SHO prohibits naked shorting on U.S. stock exchanges too, not that it doesn't still happen.

Well, a 2000 BTC sale can for sure kill a rally (smaller one). I would think for shorting to really really matter, we would have to be talking in the 10's of thousands? Thoughts.

Thanks for the information by the way. We have to look at everything, even those things we don't like to see. Shocked

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Interesting - First wall I see is around 2k at $130...

Pale Phoenix

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 12:35:52 PM

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

Right now there are approximately 2200 coins lent out to short sellers and another 1800 available to borrow on Bitfinex, so around 500k USD at today's price. Not a massive sum, but enough to make shorting viable for traders on that platform.

You do have to keep assets on the exchange to cover a potential margin call, and no, there is no naked shorting. Technically, Regulation SHO prohibits naked shorting on U.S. stock exchanges too, not that it doesn't still happen.

dexX7

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Quote from: Dumbastronaut on May 18, 2013, 11:48:02 AM

Anyone else see a textbook head and shoulders formation? We're crossing thd neckline right now :/

Which timeframe? Call the points please.

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Quote from: Ultraviolet on May 18, 2013, 12:28:41 PM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 12:18:54 PM

I wasn't aware of that. But, due to the design of the network, you can't do naked shorting I would think. So, shorting would mean, borrowing actual shares from someones account and then selling them and promising to buy them back at a later date. I would also think that you would have to cover the sell in cash and would be subject to margin calls as well. I don't know if shorting BTC nor derivatives, could really ever "work" at quite the same was as they do in the stock market. For one, most people don't keep their coins in the exchanges - right there you can't borrow them for sale.

It works on Bitfinex because there's a pool of USD and BTC that's lent on a P2P system in exchange for interest. USD interest is very high and BTC interest is very low.

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

Ultraviolet

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 12:18:54 PM

I wasn't aware of that. But, due to the design of the network, you can't do naked shorting I would think. So, shorting would mean, borrowing actual shares from someones account and then selling them and promising to buy them back at a later date. I would also think that you would have to cover the sell in cash and would be subject to margin calls as well. I don't know if shorting BTC nor derivatives, could really ever "work" at quite the same was as they do in the stock market. For one, most people don't keep their coins in the exchanges - right there you can't borrow them for sale.

It works on Bitfinex because there's a pool of USD and BTC that's lent on a P2P system in exchange for interest. USD interest is very high and BTC interest is very low.

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Quote from: S3052 on May 18, 2013, 11:58:39 AM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:35:51 AM

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 09:17:22 AM

Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 09:12:29 AM

This entire line of conversation is a stark reminder that it does not matter what currency dominates the world. At the end of the day, rich people still will look down on poor people so nothing will ever change in that capacity. Rich people will be dorkier than they are today, but just as hateful and oppressive as rich people have ever been.

Really sad and depressing way to start the morning. Cry

+1

Their manipulation of the BTC market is annoying too. That is on topic, after all isn't this the wall movement tracker thread? It's their walls that are messing everything up. If more money does come into BTC then even they won't be able to afford to do that any more, which will let BTC reflect its true value and can only be a good thing. That is of course until the scumbag banks join in with even bigger walls of course.

BTC is just an intermediate step to something much greater. In the short term we have to get the criminals out of politics and government (which means a total revamp of our system).

Regarding the walls - just don't look at them. Buy ~~and sell~~ when you need to. Big players might see those walls but really, what do they do outside of psychologically? Thus far we don't have any shorting of BTC, and that is a good thing.

We need to protect ourselves from the bankers. They all have the same thing on their minds, war and...

there is quite some shorting possible on www.bitfinex.com

I wasn't aware of that. But, due to the design of the network, you can't do naked shorting I would think. So, shorting would mean, borrowing actual shares from someones account and then selling them and promising to buy them back at a later date. I would also think that you would have to cover the sell in cash and would be subject to margin calls as well. I don't know if shorting BTC nor derivatives, could really ever "work" at quite the same was as they do in the stock market. For one, most people don't keep their coins in the exchanges - right there you can't borrow them for sale.

ChartBuddy

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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 33291. (Read 26463457 times)