Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 3489. (Read 26713333 times)

Bitcoin isn’t keeping up with real inflation, either.  $30k range in January 2022 was a drastic YOY loss compared to $30k range in January 2021, for starters.

As for gold—I never understood why some Bitcoiners have a grudge against gold.  It doesn’t make sense, and it’s counterproductive.

Where's Bitcoin CEO? Why he's not answering calls?

only bitcoin CEO can ban me for this.

Too bad that gold's appreciation can't even touch bitcoin's, nor can it keep up with real inflation. Volatility be damned.

What else you got?

philipma, the joke must not have translated.

I believe that shahzadafzal was being sarcastic and facetious.

philipma, the joke must not have translated.

I believe that shahzadafzal was being sarcastic and facetious.

People don’t buy gold to chase moons, to get rich quick, or to obsess over “when $100k?”.  (Well, not unless they are idiots.  Serious goldbugs are not idiots.)  Gold buyers are largely motivated by a desire to avoid losing value; I believe that’s what a “hedge vehicle” means.

Gold’s lower volatility compared to Bitcoin is in gold’s favor, not in Bitcoin’s favor.  I would kill for Bitcoin to have gold’s level of volatility.

OT Shower thought:

It just occurred to me this morning that the goldbugs and silverbugs would absolutely *kill* to have the Average Joe public FOMO into PMs every few years, and have the MSM constantly printing bull/bear articles about it.

Kill.

Poor PMs: The Rodney Dangerfield of hedge vehicles.

I would ban you from the wo if this was my website.

P O S = piece of shit

I am glad she didn't force you to watch the wrong version of Harry potter.    

In my humble opinion, it all comes down to the link between energy and value, complex and inexplicable as it may be. Energy may or may not create value, but value requires energy. There is no "free lunch" in this universe.

Thanks for the civil, thoughtful discussion.

I think that we have a fundamental point of disagreement here:


I don’t know whence this idea of Bitcoin as an “energy storage container” arose.  I have seen it here and there for years, of course; now, I see it everywhere; it even seems to be implied in that Cruz speech.  (I did say that I disagree with some parts of it.  I also understand that Senator Cruz has a growing constituency of miners; I hope that he does well to protect their right to mine Bitcoin, but it doesn’t make his argument correct on this particular point.)

Please think back to the first time you bought Bitcoin.  Why did you buy BTC?  Did you think to yourself, “I want a piece of this awesome energy storage container?”

I know that I didn’t.  I think that nobody did.

I infer that you may be trying to use the total-work measurement as some sort of “energy storage” measure.  If so, I can rebut that; but first, I think it is more productive to step back and examine Bitcoin’s value constructively.

The pivotal question:  Why is Bitcoin valuable?  Many people have many different reasons for buying Bitcoin; but beneath it all, it’s because Bitcoin is social money.  It is money that connects people, without the boundaries imposed by banks.  

I originally bought Bitcoin because it lets me transact with anyone, anywhere in the world, without asking anybody’s permission.  Note the necessary focus on people:  People to whom I want to connect financially, and people whose unjust control I wish to escape.

Traders are a big factor in the market.  Traders buy Bitcoin because they are trying to beat other traders; trading is, after all, a zero-sum game in which every gain has a matching loss.  Simple daytraders use astrology TA as a proxy for what they predict other traders—other people will do.  Sophisticated quants design robots to beat the robots of other quants (plus everybody else).  In the end, it is all about people—interacting with people financially—even in the negative sense of beating them and taking their money.

This examination of various motives for buying BTC could be elaborated at some length.  In every real-world scenario I can think of, it all comes down to Bitcoin’s superior ability to connect people financially.

Without deprecating other various facets of Bitcoin, ultimately, Bitcoin is people-money.  A superior tool for communicating monetary information with other people.

In some degree, that is the nature of money itself; and this discussion invokes the types of abstract questions about the nature of value which philosophers have discussed and debated for millennia.  But with Bitcoin, the people-money aspect is nearly total.  If I were alone in the world, then I would still like to have some gold coins:  They’re shiny, they’re pretty, they’re a pleasure to hold in my own hands.  But if I were alone in the world, a bitcoin would be worthless.

I can run a cryptographic-money program on my computer with exactly one user:  Me.  It is worthless without other people.  To verify that empirically, run Core in regtest mode, or with your own private signet, and see how much the coins are worth.  It doesn’t matter how much energy is poured into it.  I could set up my own mining farm mining a private Bitcoin fork; it would still be worthless.

Bitmain poured an awful lot of energy into BCH.  Calvin Ayre and company have poured some energy into BSV.  That doesn’t imbue these shitcoins with some sort of magical value as “energy containers”.  Their only value is how much they can scam out of people by abusing the Bitcoin name.

Now, as to the “energy container” concept in itself:  How does this container function?  Where does the energy go?  And how can we get it back out?

The total-work number is probabilistic evidence that energy has been spent.  It is an indirect measure, and a relative measure:  It does not measure energy itself!  It does not account for efficiency:  A CPU hash costs more energy than a GPU hash, which costs more energy than an FPGA hash, which costs more energy than an ASIC hash.

If Bitcoin were an “energy container”, then we should still be CPU-mining to expend the most energy per hash.  Instead, we use the most efficient known means to spend the least energy per hash.

No—the total-work number is only a measure of what the difficulty would be of rolling back and rewriting the blockchain with a 51% attack.  It is a measure of practical, real-world security against double-spend attacks—no more, no less.

With some apologies for the foregoing having been a bit rambling and disorganized—too long, yet too terse—I am trying to compress some big ideas into a small space, without time or space to write a book here.

If you rethink Bitcoin’s value from the start, I think that you will probably arrive at some radical conclusions.

This illustration shows what happened to the country https://www.facebook.com/Phemex.official/videos/697310468231523/