Explanation
Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 5341. (Read 26709486 times)
June 11, 2021, 10:01:35 AM
June 11, 2021, 09:57:24 AM
It would have been interesting to see if they took BTC as is and only added bigger blocks, but that's not what they did, so here we are and the market has spoken.
Meh, segwit really isn't that interesting. While it's not disastrous, It adds technical debt because it does things in a kludgy way and the things it does bring to the table can be (and have been) implemented in better ways. Now, that typically means hard forks so could they have been implemented on Bitcoin? We'll never know.
It's definitely clear that forks that don't carry the BTC symbol or have the blessing of Core start a long way behind and hash is always going to be hugely important. It's clear to me that, as AlcoHoDL suggests, increasing the block size limit is inevitable at some point so I think it's far from a dead issue. Bitcoin is still permissionless and to act like all those who believe some kind of change is the block size limit is a good idea got exiled to BCH island is asinine.
June 11, 2021, 09:46:43 AM
Jack Dorsey has hinted that Twitter will integrate the Lightning Network. 
https://www.coindesk.com/dorsey-suggests-twitter-lightning-network-integration
https://www.coindesk.com/dorsey-suggests-twitter-lightning-network-integration
He is such an interesting "hero" in the BTC space. He is seemingly anti a lot of the right-libertarian/anarchist vibe so strong in the Bitcoin world. He seems a bonafide techno-leftist, and yet he has very FIRMLY fallen in with the maxi sort of position.
June 11, 2021, 09:45:19 AM
What I mean are Bitcoin mining facilities with their own hydropower (water power) installations using small river as energy source as part of the land they own or lease, like this one:
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2018/1/17/inside-the-world-of-chinese-bitcoin-mining
No one is stealing energy when they generate their own power (or build mining facility close to existing hydropower plant with contract to mine energy overproduction), and shutting down just means the river continues to flow through the plant without turbine, no environmental gain.
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2018/1/17/inside-the-world-of-chinese-bitcoin-mining
No one is stealing energy when they generate their own power (or build mining facility close to existing hydropower plant with contract to mine energy overproduction), and shutting down just means the river continues to flow through the plant without turbine, no environmental gain.
It was my understanding that these hydro-power installations were mostly built in anticipation of needed demand (or arguably misallocated resources - see the ghost cities) and were just being used where they would otherwise be idle rather than built specifically by miners. I could see some idiot bureaucrat making a boneheaded decision in that case.
June 11, 2021, 09:44:26 AM
the builders thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/announcing-the-futurebit-apollo-btc-a-full-nodemining-platform-for-the-home-5314398
these cheap nodes that mine at a small profit can be in 10 thousand homes.
building a super node with 32mb blocks would mean using 8tb ssds in arrays
you would need more than 300mb internet speed.
I loaded a node/wallet on a thread ripper about 18 months ago
used a threadripper 3970 with 128gb ram
used 200mb internet and a 2tb nvme m.2 ssd
took 2 hours to synch it.
the time was 2 hours due to a 100mb switch I downloaded at a constant 80-90mb. it was about 300gb
but if we had a 32mb block thread it would be 16x the size
take 32 hours to download
and use 4.8tb
if it were a 96mb block
it takes 96 hours to download
and use 13.4tb
so that would mean at least two 8tb ssds in an array to give 16tb
maybe the 2000 usd threadripper the 3970 is good enough
maybe the 128gb ram is enough.
but I would need to have built a 9 k rig to do a node.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/announcing-the-futurebit-apollo-btc-a-full-nodemining-platform-for-the-home-5314398
these cheap nodes that mine at a small profit can be in 10 thousand homes.
building a super node with 32mb blocks would mean using 8tb ssds in arrays
you would need more than 300mb internet speed.
I loaded a node/wallet on a thread ripper about 18 months ago
used a threadripper 3970 with 128gb ram
used 200mb internet and a 2tb nvme m.2 ssd
took 2 hours to synch it.
the time was 2 hours due to a 100mb switch I downloaded at a constant 80-90mb. it was about 300gb
but if we had a 32mb block thread it would be 16x the size
take 32 hours to download
and use 4.8tb
if it were a 96mb block
it takes 96 hours to download
and use 13.4tb
so that would mean at least two 8tb ssds in an array to give 16tb
maybe the 2000 usd threadripper the 3970 is good enough
maybe the 128gb ram is enough.
but I would need to have built a 9 k rig to do a node.
i dont need my full node (which i use purely for validating my own transactions) to run on a rPi, but it at least needs to be able to run on a (probably beefy) commodity computer and be able to sync from scratch in a reasonable time. so i dont mind needing a 3-4k (or even 10k) computer to run a node purely for my own verification, but once you need business class internet and seriously potent server gear thats when i have issues. i will need to trust other nodes at that point. SPV clients have thier place but not as my main check for my transactions and balances. i suppose spinning up AWS type stuff for a personal verification node is a possibility but that seems drastic and likely expensive plus i like my gear in house.
blocks at its current size may have issues but they work for me at this point and thats good enough for now. high fees at the moment? pay up, wait, or go home: pretty simple. ill wait for the bulging brains types to figure the best way forward.
edit: slow and steady. this is Prod after all. i like my coin STABLE. let the alts blow up their blockchains. believe me its nice to have paper wallets from 2011 that are as safe and usable as the day i printed them. cant say that for a lot (likely most) shitcoins from back in the day, or even more recent ones.
If you want to be all btc.
Have a few hodl wallets.
paper ,trezor, core
and have liquid btc on an exchange.
Personally I have run nodes on really good pcs and on the new apollo with many inbetween.
I like running on the rasp/arm apollo it uses 10 watts and does the job. Plus it mines. It is due to become an ln node. It is possible that 10,000 of these could be in the world in a year or so.
We would not be able to have 10000 small form pc nodes like a dell with an i7 a 2tb ssd and 32 gb ram with 100 mbs internet.
basically it is less affordable.
question how many nodes do we have and where to find a node number chart.
do we have :
1,000
5,000
10,000
25,000
50,000
100,000
the higher number would be an argument favoring the low block size we currently have.
it would be a nice point to assist the block size discussion.
June 11, 2021, 09:42:20 AM
June 11, 2021, 09:41:12 AM
Does this include the big miners using their own hydropower installations? If so, seems like a stupid decision.
Definitely the kind of idiocy that can only come from a command-and-control economy.
June 11, 2021, 09:38:57 AM
The guy seems clueless. If a 'price crash' is a reason to forbid it, you should forbid the financial markets
But the government can always step in and bail out all those rich people who made stupid high-risk bets with poor peoples' money doncha know?
June 11, 2021, 09:31:32 AM
OT: This is the ultimate red pill, the ultimate "ah ha" moment.
And you can no longer vote against it. They will print and spend regardless of who is in office. Once you "get" this, you soon realize that there are only so many ways out of their system. Bitcoin is one of those ways.
"Big government only sees itself. It is the ultimate narcissist, everything else exists for its benefit.
Think about this...with massive government, the people are the budget. We’re little hash marks on a piece of paper, little items in a multi-trillion dollar lobbyist giveaway, all devolving us into nothing more than a product to manage, a product to distribute, a product to tax, and a product to exploit for political and financial gain all along the way.
The size of government itself and its contempt for the people it’s supposed to represent has made it inevitable that they hardly see us as human beings at all. No doubt they see us as hamsters in the wheel, all to fund an ever-expanding bureaucracy.
In fact, the endless spending is a representation of the denigration of humanity at every level, and it all happens when the government becomes an insatiable monolith."
-Tammy Bruce
And you can no longer vote against it. They will print and spend regardless of who is in office. Once you "get" this, you soon realize that there are only so many ways out of their system. Bitcoin is one of those ways.
"Big government only sees itself. It is the ultimate narcissist, everything else exists for its benefit.
Think about this...with massive government, the people are the budget. We’re little hash marks on a piece of paper, little items in a multi-trillion dollar lobbyist giveaway, all devolving us into nothing more than a product to manage, a product to distribute, a product to tax, and a product to exploit for political and financial gain all along the way.
The size of government itself and its contempt for the people it’s supposed to represent has made it inevitable that they hardly see us as human beings at all. No doubt they see us as hamsters in the wheel, all to fund an ever-expanding bureaucracy.
In fact, the endless spending is a representation of the denigration of humanity at every level, and it all happens when the government becomes an insatiable monolith."
-Tammy Bruce
June 11, 2021, 09:26:40 AM
so, here we are again, discussing block size while the next big bitcoin upgrade is just 140 signaling blocks away.
And once again, the vocal "we" that wants to endlessly debate that shit has ZERO, LESS THAN ZERO control over it...but with hubris thinks that they have some control.
And trying to convince other users that also have ZERO control is futile and a waste of time and effort.
June 11, 2021, 09:21:33 AM
I don't like the look of that last spike, might not mean people are moving wallet BTC to short on exchange, but something is up.
The price is moving, people started transacting again and.. the hash rate was falling yesterday by quite a lot.
Ah, yes, miners are having problems, and waiting for lower difficulty settling in.
It’s because several Chinese provinces have told miners to cease mining. They are turning off machines & ready to relocate.
Does this include the big miners using their own hydropower installations? If so, seems like a stupid decision.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3136780/chinas-bitcoin-crackdown-pushes-miners-out-xinjiang-qinghai-baidu-and
Oh shit, LFC.. Did you say that China bans bitcoin? OMG what we gonna do? This has never happened before.
By the way, I will acknowledge that China appears to be ramping up their level of severity in the actual "China bans bitcoin" (for reals this time) arena. Yet, it does not hurt to reiterate how it seems that their "china bans bitcoin" in late 2016 really fucked over quite a few of their peeps because as a result of the "china bans bitcoin" that time, they likely had quite a few regular folks (rather than the elites) who had quite a few of their funds (anything then on China exchanges) frozen up for something like a year - and seems like it was more than a year.. and guess what happened in 2017 during that time that some china regular peeps had their funds locked up on exchanges? sure some of them were able to still make sure that they had bitcoin exposure by going through local bitcoins and perhaps some other means, but it did seem that their late 2016 "china bans bitcoin" was problematic and impactful.. but not really problematic and impactful on bitcoin overall, but instead problematic and impactful on certain parts of their citizens.
June 11, 2021, 09:01:26 AM
June 11, 2021, 09:01:03 AM
I don't like the look of that last spike, might not mean people are moving wallet BTC to short on exchange, but something is up.
The price is moving, people started transacting again and.. the hash rate was falling yesterday by quite a lot.
Ah, yes, miners are having problems, and waiting for lower difficulty settling in.
Sure there might be some supposedly short term mining drama, but seems like a BIG SO FUCKING WHAT.
3/4 of this difficulty period had already run, and the hash rate and block times had mostly been flat throughout, and then in the past couple of days, it looks like there might possibly be around a minus 4% difficulty adjustment that will take place on Sunday. Does not seem to be much of a change, and surely even within difficulty periods we see increases and decreases in hashrate, but the difficulty adjustments seem to work like a charm as well in terms of there potentially being costs to any kinds of attempts at longer term mining manipulations or chicanery...
Showing current happenings and projections:
https://diff.cryptothis.com/
these difficulty adjustments are absolutely amazing, and pretty much takes the wind of the sails of so many ill founded accusations regarding hypothetical perilous effects of bitcoin mining blah blah blah.
Showing historical ups and downs in the difficulty adjustments and the associated hashrates
https://btc.com/stats/diff?_ga=2.166892222.1079250679.1586286038-48233127.1586286038
Didn’t the Big Blockers win, I am sure they did, Bitcoin Cash? 
Exactamente!!!!!
They did win.... but it is called bcash, and they got two versions of that (so we could say bcashes or bcash x2 or bcash2.. but whatever, they are be dee winners to be able to carry out their visions of the future of sound money and "on chain" super highway transactions and whatever else they believe to be going to attract the masses to their better mouse trap(s) soon.tm
June 11, 2021, 08:50:31 AM
^ Out of merits unfortunately, but have some imaginary ones. Many of them.
June 11, 2021, 08:43:14 AM
I would think that in a place like this most of us are awake. But I could be wrong.
We are in a global war gentlemen. Do you all know that?
No, I am not being hyperbolic. Understandable that you would think so.
I am thinking about writing a longer tome about it, as there are MANY facets to what I am seeing, political, economic, etc.
Think about this: We have been thinking for many decades that the next war would be this global disaster with cities going up in great plumes of radioactive explosions, perhaps with great armies moving into the battlefield like the most recent wars past.
Yet we have not. Pax Americana was enforced by concentrated surgical strikes and economic hegemony. So different a world that the one prior that the masses could be lulled into a sense that it was actual peace, when indeed we have been fighting non-stop for a century nearly.
And the world has changed on almost every front in that time. We have become a connected world of information, and just as our jobs (many of them) have morphed into pure data, so has the fight. The way this war is being fought is so different from every one before that it is not even recognizable.
Just as EVERY war before the great two world wars was entirely different than those conflicts, the war we are in today looks nothing like those wars, at least not yet. And I believe the goal of those pulling the levers is to fight it with as few casualties as possible. Just look at how Covid was engineered.
I am not going to go deep on this here... but there is a part of it that should be becoming obvious to us humble bitcoiners in 3... 2... 1...
We are about to be dragged onto the battlefield whether we want to be or not. And it might get messy for us.
Next front? They are beginning to call the Miami bitcoin conference a "Super Spreader" event. One headline even called the attendees "Anarchists". The global forces behind the war we are in have a very specific plan for the economy of the Earth, including a global tax, as well as CDBCs allowing them to redistribute wealth by central control. The media (absolutely compromised, and a central front in the war) is going to start spinning up every argument possible about the evils of bitcoin. We ain't seen nothin' yet.
We are natural enemies of the powers that be. We always knew it. But shit is getting very VERY real.
Oh, and they are almost certainly in here with us too. You should suspect me of being a possible spook for example, with all my love of the banks, etc.
. And I will return the favor. But we must also remain vigilant to not be divided. I DO NOT CARE if you like big blocks (and you cant deny?). I do not care about your personal politics. We are brothers in digital arms.
Good luck to us!
Oh, and by the way...
We win.
We are in a global war gentlemen. Do you all know that?
No, I am not being hyperbolic. Understandable that you would think so.
I am thinking about writing a longer tome about it, as there are MANY facets to what I am seeing, political, economic, etc.
Think about this: We have been thinking for many decades that the next war would be this global disaster with cities going up in great plumes of radioactive explosions, perhaps with great armies moving into the battlefield like the most recent wars past.
Yet we have not. Pax Americana was enforced by concentrated surgical strikes and economic hegemony. So different a world that the one prior that the masses could be lulled into a sense that it was actual peace, when indeed we have been fighting non-stop for a century nearly.
And the world has changed on almost every front in that time. We have become a connected world of information, and just as our jobs (many of them) have morphed into pure data, so has the fight. The way this war is being fought is so different from every one before that it is not even recognizable.
Just as EVERY war before the great two world wars was entirely different than those conflicts, the war we are in today looks nothing like those wars, at least not yet. And I believe the goal of those pulling the levers is to fight it with as few casualties as possible. Just look at how Covid was engineered.
I am not going to go deep on this here... but there is a part of it that should be becoming obvious to us humble bitcoiners in 3... 2... 1...
We are about to be dragged onto the battlefield whether we want to be or not. And it might get messy for us.
Next front? They are beginning to call the Miami bitcoin conference a "Super Spreader" event. One headline even called the attendees "Anarchists". The global forces behind the war we are in have a very specific plan for the economy of the Earth, including a global tax, as well as CDBCs allowing them to redistribute wealth by central control. The media (absolutely compromised, and a central front in the war) is going to start spinning up every argument possible about the evils of bitcoin. We ain't seen nothin' yet.
We are natural enemies of the powers that be. We always knew it. But shit is getting very VERY real.
Oh, and they are almost certainly in here with us too. You should suspect me of being a possible spook for example, with all my love of the banks, etc.
. And I will return the favor. But we must also remain vigilant to not be divided. I DO NOT CARE if you like big blocks (and you cant deny?). I do not care about your personal politics. We are brothers in digital arms. Good luck to us!
Oh, and by the way...
We win.
June 11, 2021, 08:38:20 AM
Shutting down cheap Chinese mines is a good thing. Fewer miners is not a problem as the chain is far more secure then it reasonably should be. Likewise miners paying more to mine will weed out older mining gear thus increasing efficiency. Finally if miners need to pay more for power they are less likely to dump cheap coinz on the market and bitcoin prices go up, which is bullish.
Don't forget, miners also add the transactions to new block, that's where the fee go.
June 11, 2021, 08:25:23 AM
Maybe keep Segwit, but increase the block by 1 mb, and make a fork of that. See how it catches on. But fork it from BTC, not from the other ones which are already forks from BTC and forks of forks. Just start fresh from 0.21.1 (current version as of this post) and fork from there. You can call it BRH or something Bitcoin Richy? I dunno. hehe.. Or do serious research about the name. BBB.. Bitcoin Big Block.
Yes, a new fork would be nice, free money is after all free money.
Now stop with the big block talk, it's not 2017 anymore, this has been a very nice place since the big blockers moved away, can we please have that back, just SHUT UP!
June 11, 2021, 08:24:13 AM
Jack Dorsey has hinted that Twitter will integrate the Lightning Network.
https://www.coindesk.com/dorsey-suggests-twitter-lightning-network-integration
https://www.coindesk.com/dorsey-suggests-twitter-lightning-network-integration
June 11, 2021, 08:21:34 AM
Why not a adjustable limit based on a previous median timeframe?
Because on top of compromising decentralization for usability (the degree of compromise can and has been argued to death, and no there's no free lunch here) it introduces new attack vectors
Could you link that explanation for me, I'm not aware of how compromising decentralization could happen in this instance?
I'm usually pretty good at identifying attack vectors but I don't see the one here.
Ugh this again, it's rather simple, but lets try a flow chart
Code:
-nodes matter to decentralization -------------NO---> go to: Faketoshi and BSv
|
YES
|
\|/
-larger capacity leads to higher resource use ------NO---> go to: math class
|
YES
\|/
-raising resource reqs eliminates minimum req nodes (Pis can't handle 100mb blocks) ----NO---> go to: math class
|
YES
\|/
-Less nodes, less decentralization -NO-> go to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization
|
YES
\|/
-Voilà
Some big blockers went full retard and argued for unlimited blocks, enter Faketoshi with his enterprise data center nodes
Other like Richy_T argues for cost/benefit compromise, for multiple reasons market decided against this thus here we are
So I think it is still worth talking about.
-Currently I am mining on a 32thread 16 core CPU I bought for $700. In a number of years 16 core cellphone processors will be a thing. (Not for mining for the most part, but for all the hashing done to validate things quicly enough)
-$400 will get you a 16T hard drive today.
-5G has Terabyte speeds at low latency WITHOUT WIRES.
Countries are coming online to bitcoin.
So this topic is not going away. That is for SURE.
June 11, 2021, 08:19:58 AM
In any case, bitcoin is going the way of an El Salvadorian fisherman with an LN channel on a Pie node transacting his business for fraction of a cent. Surely this is not the end stage and there's plenty that still will need to be improved, but this is a best solution so far, if you think a global currency can keep every transaction on layer one while maintaining decentralization you're delusional.
It's really a false dichotomy. We could have more capacity for on-chain transactions *and* second layer solutions (which I have been an advocate for since the early part of my presence in the Bitcoin realm) which also need more capacity than we currently have. I mean, if LN is all that, we'll be preferring using it over on-chain anyway. The block size limit is just that, a limit, not a requirement.
Like I say, I have no sympathy for the RPis. They're just the wrong hardware for the job. It's cute to have a Bitcoin node running on one but that's all. It has no justification. Show me some hardware actually designed for the job at around $100 and we might be able to talk (probably Intel Atom, PCIE SSD, proper Gigabit ethernet and expandable RAM starting at 16G).
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