Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 7521. (Read 26723945 times)

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I would never use an internet-capable computer to create an address. I also am aware that print spoolers can be hacked so I use a printer that has never been, nor will ever be connected to an internet-capable computer.

Nothing is 100% safe. Paper can be stolen or lost in fires or other disasters, whether it's keys or seeds. Same with devices can also fail. Anything online is of course extra unsafe.

Splitting your keys, encrypting them, duplicating them, and keeping them in multiple off-site locations is as close to 100% safe as you can get.

I get so confused trying to figure out transactions, and from the links that he provided about where his bitcoin's went, I thought that there were 12 bitcoins sent.

 Am I missing something?

Also, it looks like ericsavics@ericsavics1, the guy who lost his coins, had created a BTC address for the hacker to send back funds, and it looks like, so far,  he received 79 transactions (at the time of my typing this post) that amount to 0.54615978 BTC, which presumably are donations from various members of the BTC community.

Regarding his mistake, yeah, it surely does seem as if he should have known better, even though it is one of those kinds of mistakes that anyone could get tricked into, accidentally... so I am not sure what lessons to get from this kind of mistake.  Perhaps, one lesson is that each of us should practice with our devices and our storage mechanisms on a regular basis to make sure that they work and using small amounts to transact, but I also understand that there are some risks with overly playing around too, so there tends to be some responsibility in ongoing learning how to be your own bank because if you fuck something up, then there is no one to go crying to in order to reverse the mistake, especially when it comes to sending coins and gosh, if you send all of the coins in your wallet at one time that is a pretty BIG deal, too.

Also, I suppose, if any of us is holding most or all of our coins in just a few spots (presuming that they are large amounts), then we might want to reconsider how and where we are holding our coins, too.

But, specifically, the mistake that ericsavics@ericsavics1 made was to enter his password or key words into a chrome browser when the keys should be entered into the device (presumably a Trezor, Ledger or one of the other hardware wallets?)... Many longer term studiers of those hardware wallet products have likely heard over and over about that kind of mistake of not to enter your information over the browser but instead to verify on the device, but like I said it does seem to be a mistake that anyone could make, especially if they do not practice using their hardware device or their wallet on a regular basis and/or they are not studying various aspects of the bitcoin space on a regular basis (which I don't necessarily expect normies to be spending anywhere near as much time as me (I admit I have a problem, but I still believe that I am capable of making lots of mistakes and not knowing some basic things) or any of you other fucking WO regulars in terms of ongoingly studying bitcoin related matters).

TBH, I don't trust these types of PSA video posts. They always seem to come out of the woodwork, usually during the start of Bitcoin bull runs, telling normies (with the underlying implied message) to "Stay away from bitcoin, you could easily lose it all... like I did."

It's hard to say, but it could just another (paid) troll PSA post. If I'm wrong and he's legit, well, he didn't do enough security homework.

Also, the guy looks late-20's early 30's but his twitter account is only a year old? Ok. What's also odd/suspicious, is that if you look at his tweet history going all the way back to the beginning when he first created the Twitter account, he almost always tweets about Bitcoin. Almost exclusively. I mean, what average Joe bitcoiner really does that on Twitter?

X-actly 
I was just in a slight rush of possibly having misunderstood ledger's security model.

There's no bank in this case. It's just you, the seed, and mathematics. No 3rd party to trust.

I think you got what I wanted to say.

The "not your keys, not your coins" motto applies to the cases where the keys (raw keys, seed, whatever) are not held and managed by you, but by a 3rd party (exchange, etc.). If you have your 24-word seed, you have your keys. And if you haven't given the seed to anyone, you, and only you, have the seed (hence the keys).

One could argue that a paper wallet's QR code is not a real key. You still need a camera and s/w to decode the QR code, right? You see what I mean? The 24-word seed is just a smarter way to encode keys, just like a paper wallet's QR code (or alphanumeric code) encodes a key.

What's important is not the encoding itself (seed, QR code, alphanumeric string, whatever), but WHO HOLDS those keys... If it's you, and only you, who holds the keys, then those coins are yours and nobody can touch them. Seed or QR code makes no difference.

Sure, the seed could be thought of as a key, but I see it more as the seed being the key to a safe deposit box in which you keep your other keys.

You still have to trust the bank.

hmmmm

flip a coin?


I will be honest..I am not sure what narrative drives the price above $10k right now and sustains it.  I still think we will see a pump over the next week if the fractal from last year holds. But I dont see it continuing in a years long bull run like everyone is hoping for. There is to much uncertainty in the world right now. Logic would dictate everyone pile into an actual hard money to preserve wealth but markets have never been rational.  

So basically...in typical bitcoin fashion...pump it up and then dump...thats my two sats

So yea...kinda feeling a little bearish today..will just have to see what happens over the next couple of weeks.




locally continued sideways...

lost in this cloud with what appears to be a small dip right out in front of us
should try and reclaim $9.5k support in the next 24 hours I believe
1h




slightly longer time frame still appears compressed and ready for a sharp move
4h




the daily is still tracking projected plot but change is imminent...again a sharp break away seems almost necessary at this point    #dyor
D

#stronghands

I doubt that using paper wallets (PW) is safer than hardware wallets (HW). There are two exceptions, though. Neither is fool proof and forgetting your seed or giving to some program is equal to a disaster. The second exception is the problem detected for Trezor which was solved with additional passphrase.

When you generate the seed on HW it is seen only on the device. No internet, no theoretical possibility of someone seeing it. You have to write it  on paper, not by making pictures. Then you can memorize the 24 words and put in safe location just in case your memory fails. When you make transactions you need to press the button of the device which is both safe and easier than using other softare.  Moreover, HW display shows the address you are sending the coins. There are trojans which can detect a BTC address in the clipboard and then replace it with the hacker's address, so you may think you paste the right address. The creation of wallets on computers, using of printers, etc.  is potentially a risk if they fall into hacker's hands. Using the phone to take the picture of your paper seed and paste it in the app is also a risk. The pics may be uploaded in the cloud, etc. Typing your seed on a computer also is a risk of course. You never know what the trojans are capable of. There are hundreds of other risks related to router hacks, etc. I really don't see how one can claim paper wallets are 100% safe.

That corresponds with my knowledge, and combined with this:


...makes the private key itself secure, even if i can't read it (but i could compute it offline via the seed, store it in paper format and wipe the ledger).
But according to "not your keys, not your coins", as i lack physical access to the private key directly, the "not your coins" part becomes valid (somehow).

All good. Also, i'd be quite a fool to have all my hodlings on a single address.

Yes, and the trillion dollar question, in the minds of bitcoin doubters remains the extent to which BTC is going to continue to have medium or longer term correlation to stocks.... and the BIGGEST doubters of bitcoin are likely those who are striving to attribute medium and long term correlation to short-term correlations that are a stretch at best..... and if they make their bets in accordance to such nonsense, they are either going to completely miss out or they are going to be way the fuck too underinvested in bitcoin... but hey each of us have to make choices based on information that we have and what we perceive to be the situation, even if we end up being wrong.

Let's see, right? and I am sure that there are going to be several regular WO members who are not going to get tricked into either not allocating a decent amount in bitcoin or under-allocating based on such nonsense predictions about purported medium to long term correlation of BTC to stocks.  Let's see how it plays out, especially given a several year timeline (rather than just looking at a few months.. or even a year...  here and there).  

TLDR: For your own sake, Vectra, I hope that you are NOT investing into BTC (or holding back) based on some kind of lame BTC/equities correlation theory.  

What I'm saying is that you can write your 24 seed words on a piece of paper and completely destroy the h/w wallet and anything related to the process of generating the seed. The seed alone is a map to get to your keys. No need to access any server or anything on the internet. You just need that little piece of paper. There is a mathematical one-to-one relationship between your seed and your keys. Nothing else is needed.

So you're not just telling me that a ledger nano is not "secure" without physical access?
I don't mean the software or transaction processing server, since the keys are stored only on the ledger and encoded into my written seed.
Did i miss something?

I fully agree with everything you've said, except the above.

If you can go from your seed to your keys in a deterministic, well-defined and publicly known way, then the two are equivalent. Seeds are keys.

It's exactly like the difference between a key in QR code form and in alphanumeric form. They are the same, just expressed differently. As long as I have my seed, you can take my Trezor and crush it to little pieces. I still have my keys (encoded in the seed) and can use several methods (a new Trezor/Ledger or any other h/w wallet, Mycelium or any other s/w wallet, I can even do the calculations myself) to gain access to my coins. And no one has to (and should ever) know my seed, except me. The entire process can be done completely offline.

Having said all the above, I do believe it's good advice to use paper wallets, especially for the non-technically literate coiners among us, who can easily fuck things up by doing something stupid with the 'puter, just like a kid can be injured by playing with a sharp knife (not the knife's fault).

Or suddenly the most powerful military force the world has ever seen disappears?



New bill design is in.

And +1 WOmerit.

A paper wallet generated and printed offline is infinitely safer than any online wallet or hardware device. I mean, of course you need good ink and paper. And I would store it in a plastic sleeve of some sort. But it will never run the risk of being hacked or corrupted.

You are only expecting down from here?  That seems like incomplete analysis, and if you are only talking about one direction that means what?  you are assigning 100% likelihood to that direction that you are talking about (down in this case)?  What about up or sideways?  what about lesser down or greater down than you are anticipating?

If you are assigning 100% likelihood to down and your target, do you bet accordingly?  If you talking as if something only has one outcome, then you should be betting everything on that too, otherwise, what you are saying is not consistent with your bets.   How are you betting?  Are your bets consistent with your words (as supposedly supported by your charts)?


I have met some pretty dumb and short term thinking kids, too, who probably learn such from their parents.  So, sure there will be a certain number of kids who become smart like that, yet probably continuing to follow a kind of 20/80 Pareto distribution principle.. something like that.

By the way, one or two podcasts back, I heard Anthony Pompliano talking about his NOT having had gotten an allowance, and then I had never thought about it that I never did get any allowance either.  I cannot recall getting any allowance, except maybe once in a while I would get a small amount of money to buy some treats.   I don't recall receiving any kinds of lessons on money management, so I first learned about money management after leaving home.    Even though my parents might not have thought about the reason for not giving an allowance, there seems to be some good in either NOT giving a kid an allowance or making the allowance contingent upon the kid carrying out certain home duties, such as cleaning their room or taking out the trash or washing dishes or some things like that... I suppose members here who have kids have varying ways that they treat allowance,  including when to start such allowance (if they do decide to provide such), and then also other decisions regarding if or when to allow kids to get some kinds of tech, such as a smart phone, handheld devices or their own computer (and who pays for it)... and what security parenting programs to include on such technologies, if allowed.

A fool and his Bitcoins are soon parted.

Noticed this in the comments:



No kidding. Not your keys, not your coins. Seeds are not keys.

What's so hard to understand about creating and keeping your own private keys to all your Bitcoin addresses? I guess some people just have a fetish about devices.

"Paper" wallets FTW.

You have to make judgements about that, and each other person has to make judgement for himself and his circumstances.

If you do not have any cashflow or any other savings, then you might be correct that you did not have a choice.

Many times, with any investment, you have to make sure that you get your shit together in all aspects before you are able to invest, otherwise you are gambling.  So in that regard, investing is a luxury that only comes after you have enough savings, such as cashflow, and all your basic expenses figured out for at least a few months, including emergency funds.

Nobody should be forced to cash out of their investment that is NOT at a time of their own choosing, otherwise that would likely be over-investing and/or gambling.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure that a lot of us have started out our investing life with a bit of gambling because it takes a long-ass time to really build up various aspects of an investment portfolio, so surely when in the initial stages of building any investment portfolio, it takes a while just to have enough cashflow, and let's say for example we have a cashflow of $1,000 per month but we have $500 in fixed expenses and $300 in variable expenses, so we only have $200 left, so we might end up putting $100 into our emergency fund and invest $100, but that first year might be stretching ourselves way too much by investing like that because we have hardly even established an emergency fund first, so maybe the more prudent thing would be to invest the whole $200 into the emergency fund, but we are too damned excited to get into some kind of investment that we decide to invest (gamble) instead.

I am not going to tell you what you need to do, because each of us has to choose for ourselves, and I certainly can recall my first 10 years or so that I was building my investment portfolio that sometimes I was overextending myself into my investments without an adequate amount in my emergency funds, so sometimes I was forced into reallocating (or selling) certain assets at times that were not of my choosing... and surely, I have found that it has become a lot easier to plan ahead the greater the size of your investment portfolio and the longer that you have been able to build it, even though from time to time, it can continue to be tempting to maybe risk more principle than is prudent because getting excited about one or another investment opportunity that presents itself.

By the way, you likely already know that it is really difficult to build your investment portfolio principle if you are prematurely cashing out, so each of us likely try to figure out ways that we can build our investment portfolio principle, so maybe instead of investing $100 a month into it, maybe we realistically can only afford $10, but as long as we are still building our portfolio investment principle, then probably we are in a better place than having to start over from zero at any point way earlier than we had wanted to do.  Also, sure, if you cannot get enough cashflow to even feel comfortable in investing some small amount, such as $10 per month, then you might not quite be ready for investments, and there may be some need to hustle to figure out ways to improve your cashflow in order that you can muster up a bit more cashflow so that once you start investing, you are not having to dip into the investment portfolio at any time that is other than a time of your own choosing.