It is so hilarious that all the BFL haters that open up post after post of 'bla bla bla'....
any newbie coming to the forums sees nothing but BFL everywhere....
BFL marketing engine: haters and trolls
Topic: Warning, ALL BFL PRE-ORDERS ARE NON REFUNDABLE - CONFIRMED BY INABA - page 5. (Read 7730 times)
December 10, 2012, 12:30:56 PM
It is so hilarious that all the BFL haters that open up post after post of 'bla bla bla'....
any newbie coming to the forums sees nothing but BFL everywhere....
BFL marketing engine: haters and trolls
December 10, 2012, 11:39:08 AM
Email is addressable and "directed" at a customer.
Forum posts are not "addressable" so there is no "directed notice" being given. (A customer of a vendor may, for example, never visit the BFL forums. Jody [BFL rep] once mentioned [supposedly] most of BFLs customers don't come from the forums in an email.)
Anyway, that is my speculative take on it.
Forum posts are not "addressable" so there is no "directed notice" being given. (A customer of a vendor may, for example, never visit the BFL forums. Jody [BFL rep] once mentioned [supposedly] most of BFLs customers don't come from the forums in an email.)
Anyway, that is my speculative take on it.
December 10, 2012, 11:02:27 AM
I have been critical of BFL in the past, but have toned down my attack (for lack of a better word). There is no proof that BFL has ever denied a refund nor not honor one in the future. My faith level is pretty high that they will continue refunding to all those who ask.
@Josh: In regard to the above, even though it's stated "whatever means you wish to do this", I'm not sure if that applies to forum posts. If it does, then a tweet would also suffice. In the spirit of the clause, I'm pretty sure it's speaking of emails as the least form of communication. Please consider that option if or when a delay in shipping is imminent.
Later, bud.
~Bruno K~
Quote
If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this -- such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email -- as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order.
@Josh: In regard to the above, even though it's stated "whatever means you wish to do this", I'm not sure if that applies to forum posts. If it does, then a tweet would also suffice. In the spirit of the clause, I'm pretty sure it's speaking of emails as the least form of communication. Please consider that option if or when a delay in shipping is imminent.
Later, bud.
~Bruno K~
December 10, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
Just a little info
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
Here is another little tidbit
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
Quote
What You Must Do If You Learn You Cannot Ship on Time
When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund.
If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this -- such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email -- as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order.
Some businesses adopt internal deadlines that are earlier than those set by the Rule to ensure that their delay notices give all customers a meaningful opportunity to consent to the delay. If businesses fail to ship or give delay notifications by their internal deadlines, they automatically cancel the orders and make refunds.
In any event, no notification to the customer can take longer than the time you originally promised or, if no time was promised, 30 days. If you cannot ship the order or provide the notice within this time, you must cancel the order and make a prompt refund.
When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund.
If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this -- such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email -- as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order.
Some businesses adopt internal deadlines that are earlier than those set by the Rule to ensure that their delay notices give all customers a meaningful opportunity to consent to the delay. If businesses fail to ship or give delay notifications by their internal deadlines, they automatically cancel the orders and make refunds.
In any event, no notification to the customer can take longer than the time you originally promised or, if no time was promised, 30 days. If you cannot ship the order or provide the notice within this time, you must cancel the order and make a prompt refund.
Here is another little tidbit
Quote
Why You Should Comply with the Rule
Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.
Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice.
Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.
Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice.
December 10, 2012, 08:58:26 AM
These threads are getting more and more ridiculous.
December 10, 2012, 08:57:03 AM
What does the american law say about that?
If the law says you must be able to cancel and get a refund if it takes longer than twice the time they say when you order, they have to give a refund, even if it says something else in their policy because the law is more important.
I'm not sure what law they must follow for orders in other countries, for example for me. The dutch law because I order it from within the Netherlands, or the american law because they are an american company.
Did they had an advertisement and site in the Netherlands where you could order? Do they deliver from an EU address? No, all went through a domestic American site, the company is located in the USA, so American law?If the law says you must be able to cancel and get a refund if it takes longer than twice the time they say when you order, they have to give a refund, even if it says something else in their policy because the law is more important.
I'm not sure what law they must follow for orders in other countries, for example for me. The dutch law because I order it from within the Netherlands, or the american law because they are an american company.
Yet another TROLL thread.
Yep, Yatt.FRIZZ23 - Guaranteed 23 identities at least! - Pre-Order Yours Today! No charge at all!
`````` 24/7 - 100% totally anti-BFL devoted trolling! - go check him or one of his other identities @ Bitcointalk.org-Forums``````
December 10, 2012, 08:15:39 AM
Yet another TROLL thread.
December 10, 2012, 05:19:56 AM
Struggling to see a confirmation in the thread.
December 10, 2012, 04:42:16 AM
mem,
thank you for the warning.
If that doesnt happen , we will hunt down bfl workers with torches... do you want to participate?
is this thing ever going to end ? when (i am not saying if being a bit optimistic ) bfl sents final products on their customers you will start the posts with title like "[ATTENTION]BFL SENT PRODUCTS TO A SPECIFIC GROOUP OF PEOPLE FIRST!" ?
thank you for the warning.
If that doesnt happen , we will hunt down bfl workers with torches... do you want to participate?
is this thing ever going to end ? when (i am not saying if being a bit optimistic ) bfl sents final products on their customers you will start the posts with title like "[ATTENTION]BFL SENT PRODUCTS TO A SPECIFIC GROOUP OF PEOPLE FIRST!" ?
December 10, 2012, 04:21:00 AM
Are the reimbursements to be in BTC or USD?
Doesn't an announcement like this make potential customers wary of pre ordering?
Does this buy BFL more time?
Does this announcement actual do more damage to the credibility of BFL than just another delay?
Doesn't an announcement like this make potential customers wary of pre ordering?
Does this buy BFL more time?
Does this announcement actual do more damage to the credibility of BFL than just another delay?
There was no announcement. This thread is a troll thread made by the thread author.
For refunds- As far as I know, USD are how refunds are issued since this is how Butterfly Labs receives these funds. If one has paid through bitinstant, the refunds made through bitinstant would be made in a reverse USD to BTC trade initiated by BFL.
December 10, 2012, 04:16:24 AM
Are the reimbursements to be in BTC or USD?
Doesn't an announcement like this make potential customers wary of pre ordering?
Does this buy BFL more time?
Does this announcement actual do more damage to the credibility of BFL than just another delay?
Doesn't an announcement like this make potential customers wary of pre ordering?
Does this buy BFL more time?
Does this announcement actual do more damage to the credibility of BFL than just another delay?
December 10, 2012, 04:14:51 AM
They can and may refund your order simply to keep the good PR going, but at any moment they can refuse to do so legally thanks to company policy.
Be warned, they have no requirement to deliver you a product.
Be warned, they have no requirement to deliver you a product.
Shocking!
ALL CAPS ATTENTION EVERYONE! IT IS TIME FOR THE ALL CAPS POST! HOLY SHIT!
As was previously posted in a thread that the original poster has read, the non-refundable policy in the FAQ section is simply CYA language. Also, please READ the FAQ referenced before posting a troll thread.
BFL has, and continues to refund pre-orders to anyone who asks- no matter what the reason. Yes, there is a matter of trust and confidence that one has to have in any new thing, but butterfly labs has been nothing if not the most honestly hard working group of people throughout the transition from their FPGA line to this new ASIC line of devices.
But even if you were to go by the actual posted text on the FAQ section of the BFL site,
Quote
Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late November or early December 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.
= still has a provision for latest shipping date where refunds are legally required on the part of BFL.
Oh, and they actually have the funding (not pre-order money) to develop this product, and are currently progressing in ways that I am sure will surprise us all.
December 10, 2012, 03:56:04 AM
http://www.butterflylabs.com/faq/
But, I still don't know what the law will tell us about it.
Quote from: Can I get a refund on my pre-order?
Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late November or early December 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.
So at the moment they are not yet shipping and it's still 2012, so at the moment the orders are non refundable.But, I still don't know what the law will tell us about it.
December 10, 2012, 03:46:28 AM
citation please
/threadUntil mem posts a BFL link and/or quote from Inaba/Josh, he's just the shitfaced typical liar he usually is.
December 10, 2012, 03:37:24 AM
Don't cancel. Sell your spot in line.
December 10, 2012, 03:31:33 AM
OMG,mem said it so........BFL MUST be fixin to fold up shop & run with the money that the CEO thief gathered & kept as BTC to make him more wealthy & he won't give refunds because he'll have to sell BTC for fiat & we know we all lose money if we buy stuff with our BTC because the exchange rate will rise & we lose even MORE money,then the the Mayans said that the world will end on December 23, 2012 & we won't be able to take our BTC with us or get refunds for ASIC's & we'll never make more money from mining ever!!!
So cancel ALL your preorders NOW,while you can still enjoy your money before the world implodes
Whew.............I think I about covered that
So cancel ALL your preorders NOW,while you can still enjoy your money before the world implodes
Whew.............I think I about covered that
December 10, 2012, 03:18:29 AM
What does the american law say about that?
If the law says you must be able to cancel and get a refund if it takes longer than twice the time they say when you order, they have to give a refund, even if it says something else in their policy because the law is more important.
I'm not sure what law they must follow for orders in other countries, for example for me. The dutch law because I order it from within the Netherlands, or the american law because they are an american company.
If the law says you must be able to cancel and get a refund if it takes longer than twice the time they say when you order, they have to give a refund, even if it says something else in their policy because the law is more important.
I'm not sure what law they must follow for orders in other countries, for example for me. The dutch law because I order it from within the Netherlands, or the american law because they are an american company.
December 10, 2012, 03:11:16 AM
citation please
December 10, 2012, 03:08:21 AM
wow!
that is very important to know!
thank you for the information!
that is very important to know!
thank you for the information!
December 10, 2012, 03:01:38 AM
They can and may refund your order simply to keep the good PR going, but at any moment they can refuse to do so legally thanks to company policy.
Be warned, they have no requirement to deliver you a product.
The FAQ has been confirmed as correct by Inaba, it just took a long time to pin down his answer (Inaba and BFL are extremely deceptive and attempt to derail any thread that brings attention to their despicable business practices).
Please keep in mind this company was CEO'ed by Sonny a convicted con artist right up until we discovered his past at which point a hasty transfer of power was organized.
People like Sonny will have no issue closing shop in the middle of the night and bolting and referring you all to the "NON REFUNDABLE" clause on their website.
Waiting for Shills defense......
Be warned, they have no requirement to deliver you a product.
The FAQ has been confirmed as correct by Inaba, it just took a long time to pin down his answer (Inaba and BFL are extremely deceptive and attempt to derail any thread that brings attention to their despicable business practices).
Please keep in mind this company was CEO'ed by Sonny a convicted con artist right up until we discovered his past at which point a hasty transfer of power was organized.
People like Sonny will have no issue closing shop in the middle of the night and bolting and referring you all to the "NON REFUNDABLE" clause on their website.
Waiting for Shills defense......
Jump to: