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Topic: Watching amateur finance types flail - page 11. (Read 35339 times)

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1015
June 24, 2011, 03:16:28 PM
#70

P.S. No one would help the poor, freshly robbed & hunted european jew in the late 30's. Now, a jew with coins stashed offshore, which the "authorities" couldn't confiscate -- was a very different story.


So bitcoin is the answer to preventing the holocaust?
Bitcoin could have prevented many things if it would have been around in the past. I think it would have been impossible for Hitler to go as far as he did, if he wasn't able to confiscate the "hard funds" that he took from every country he conquered.

lol wow.  Wish I had heard about Silk Road before it went down - sounds like you've been getting some KILLER dope on there!!!
Lol, I don't do drugs Smiley.
And if I did I wouldn't buy them from silk road.  Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 252
June 24, 2011, 03:15:21 PM
#69

P.S. No one would help the poor, freshly robbed & hunted european jew in the late 30's. Now, a jew with coins stashed offshore, which the "authorities" couldn't confiscate -- was a very different story.


So bitcoin is the answer to preventing the holocaust?
Bitcoin could have prevented many things if it would have been around in the past. I think it would have been impossible for Hitler to go as far as he did, if he wasn't able to confiscate the "hard funds" that he took from every country he conquered.

lol wow.  Wish I had heard about Silk Road before it went down - sounds like you've been getting some KILLER dope on there!!!
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1015
June 24, 2011, 03:13:14 PM
#68

P.S. No one would help the poor, freshly robbed & hunted european jew in the late 30's. Now, a jew with coins stashed offshore, which the "authorities" couldn't confiscate -- was a very different story.


So bitcoin is the answer to preventing the holocaust?
Bitcoin could have prevented many things if it would have been around in the past. I think it would have been impossible for Hitler to go as far as he did, if he wasn't able to confiscate the "hard funds" that he took from every country he conquered.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 101
June 24, 2011, 03:11:57 PM
#67
August 16, 2001: "If you've earned any Beenz on your travels around the Web, you'd better hurry up and spend them." "Internet surfers have only 10 days to use up their Beenz after the company announced Thursday that its online operations will cease Aug. 26. Any outstanding Beenz will be worthless after that date. A short message on the Beenz Web site announced the close and said any Beenz in a member's account after Aug. 26 "will be invalidated by Beenz.com, and the member will not be entitled to any compensation of any kind for such invalidated Beenz."

That's a problem with CENTRALIZED ISSUED CURRENCIES, actually you can see that to happen with US Dollar, Euros or any fiat/country currency around the World. Bitcoin is immune to that, nobody can say from date X on you can't use bitcoins.

Come on Anduril, you troll, defend the dollar and fiat currencies.....

Allude to other threats with weaponry and drugging people. That's what the US does is it not. The value of the dollar down the barrel of a gun..... Nice.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 252
June 24, 2011, 03:10:40 PM
#66

P.S. No one would help the poor, freshly robbed & hunted european jew in the late 30's. Now, a jew with coins stashed offshore, which the "authorities" couldn't confiscate -- was a very different story.


So bitcoin is the answer to preventing the holocaust?
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
June 24, 2011, 03:09:28 PM
#65
I wouldn't be in equities if you paid me, because the dollar is about to keel over and die a horrible death. Good luck moving anything out of that deathtrap once it collapses.

That goes for standard banks too, I wouldn't have anything in there you aren't prepared to lose. Because when it happens, you better believe they'll clamp down on anyone pulling out any funds at all.
John N -- you've got great insights into the world of finance & trading it seems.

So please help us wrest control of money away from the elites (AKA powerhungry bloodthirsty homocidal maniacs).
Bitcoin seems to be the only solution to this persitent problem.
Got anything better? Any other ideas?

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws." -Baron Rothschild

P.S. No one would help the poor, freshly robbed & hunted european jew in the late 30's. Now, a jew with coins stashed offshore, which the "authorities" couldn't confiscate -- was a very different story.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 252
June 24, 2011, 03:08:07 PM
#64
How is securing millions of dollars worth of transactions a "useless task".

+1.  In fact, Mt. Gox is keeping a lot of money extremely secure!!!
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1015
June 24, 2011, 03:06:17 PM
#63
I like how many these posts are just flaming the guy who started the thread. Great community!
I was being dead serious about my offer to rebuild his site for 10btc.

He has no understanding of the coins. He thinks that the computers mining these coins are operating a "useless task". How is securing millions of dollars worth of transactions a "useless task".

You have no understanding of the currency Mr. Nagle , and I mean that with all sincerity and respect.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
June 24, 2011, 03:05:40 PM
#62
Quote from: Downside
We predicted the mortgage crisis in October 2004, again in 2006, again in 2007, and said it was here in March 2008.
This rather plays in to the criticism of many long term bears, in that it's said if you predict a big crash, correction or recession sooner or later you're bound to be right at some point and you can accept your 15 minutes of fame. Trying to act on those regular predictions can be much riskier though, as the classic quote goes "Markets can remain irrational a lot longer than you and I can remain solvent".
Agreed.  But that wasn't the situation with the housing crash. There was this weird mind-set that housing price increases created wealth, while in reality they were just a form of inflation. What we saw was that historically, the median house sells for 2 to 2.5x the median income. When that number hit 4 across the US, and 10 in some areas, it was blindingly obvious that something had to give. Nobody could make those payments.

The housing crash was delayed two years by Greenspan, who had the Fed cut interest rates when it should have been raising them. ("It is the job of the Fed to take away the punch bowl just as the party gets going" - William McChesney Martin, early Fed chairman.) When the crash came, it was much worse.

The dot-com crash was straight cash flow. There were people saying "revenue doesn't matter." What mattered was "clicks".  When the initial funding ran out, so did the company. It was a very strange time. I'm in Silicon Valley, and watched it all happen.

The current real-world economic situation is so driven by public policy that we've given up making predictions.
 
It's amusing watching the Bitcoin community flail around. Most of the classic financial disasters are being re-enacted in miniature. We have pyramid schemes, tulipomania, bucket shops, pump and dump... This would be fun if it were an MMORPG.
I agree that this makes the entire phenomenon fascinating. The communities openness to such transparent hucksterisms like the pyramid schemes seems to speak volumes about the main interests in bitcoins. And while I'm not schooled in such things, this also seems to be a rather unique twist on the pump in dump where there appears to be no central actor with the pumping actually done by all the market participants themselves through some kind of ad hoc understanding. It really feels to me like it's been taken hold at least in part by penny or otc manipulators. Very interesting to watch, seldom do you get such a raw view of it because of the legal implications. I just hope nobody is risking their retirement of college fund.

Agreed.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
June 24, 2011, 03:03:55 PM
#61
Nagle, everything you've mentioned has already been discussed ad nauseum on this forum. None of your obvservations are anything new. I'm trying to figure out the point of you posting this. Was there one, or did you have something new to contribute that you perhaps forgot to mention?
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
June 24, 2011, 03:01:31 PM
#60
I like how many these posts are just flaming the guy who started the thread. Great community!
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 252
June 24, 2011, 03:01:05 PM
#59
August 16, 2001: "If you've earned any Beenz on your travels around the Web, you'd better hurry up and spend them." "Internet surfers have only 10 days to use up their Beenz after the company announced Thursday that its online operations will cease Aug. 26. Any outstanding Beenz will be worthless after that date. A short message on the Beenz Web site announced the close and said any Beenz in a member's account after Aug. 26 "will be invalidated by Beenz.com, and the member will not be entitled to any compensation of any kind for such invalidated Beenz."

That's a problem with CENTRALIZED ISSUED CURRENCIES, actually you can see that to happen with US Dollar, Euros or any fiat/country currency around the World. Bitcoin is immune to that, nobody can say from date X on you can't use bitcoins.

Or that you CAN use it Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
June 24, 2011, 02:59:43 PM
#58
August 16, 2001: "If you've earned any Beenz on your travels around the Web, you'd better hurry up and spend them." "Internet surfers have only 10 days to use up their Beenz after the company announced Thursday that its online operations will cease Aug. 26. Any outstanding Beenz will be worthless after that date. A short message on the Beenz Web site announced the close and said any Beenz in a member's account after Aug. 26 "will be invalidated by Beenz.com, and the member will not be entitled to any compensation of any kind for such invalidated Beenz."

That's a problem with CENTRALIZED ISSUED CURRENCIES, actually you can see that to happen with US Dollar, Euros or any fiat/country currency around the World. Bitcoin is immune to that, nobody can say from date X on you can't use bitcoins.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1022
No Maps for These Territories
June 24, 2011, 02:56:04 PM
#57
Maybe the thread title should read: "Watching finance types with amateur websites fail"   Cheesy
Was my first thought as well 'is he talking about himself?'.

The points in this topic have been discussed to death many times, I don't understand why people keep putting up with it.

Both people plugging bitcoin and people like you that try to talk it down have their own agendas. Don't tell me that you posted this out of altruism to warn us :')
member
Activity: 92
Merit: 10
June 24, 2011, 02:55:42 PM
#56
Heh, good point.  But instead of a $5 wrench, you just use OS or website exploits.

Indeed. BTC currently is only as strong as the exchanges (because there is hoarding and no liquidity), and let's face it, they are amateurish at best (and no, I'm not equating BTC with Mtgox, but the others do not fill me with confidence either).
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
June 24, 2011, 02:51:58 PM
#55
We are creating an entirely new web of powerful encrypted transactions that not even the best hackers in the world can crack. Tell me how that's not value people?

I posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:



The technical hubris in this thread is quite amusing.
Heh, good point.  But instead of a $5 wrench, you just use OS or website exploits.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
June 24, 2011, 02:47:58 PM
#54
 But to compare it to Digicash and Beenz really shows that you haven't done your homework.  Probably a lot like predicting "the dot-com crash over the last Decade".  (That would have been a little more impressive if done in 1998, and not over the last decade.)
Look at the dates on Downside.com's "deathwatch".  Deathwatch ran from 2000-2001, starting at the peak of the dot-com boom. We predicted the crash when others were hyping the boom.
Quote
Bitcoin is going to get more attention primarily because it has solved a problem that has never been solved before - Beenz and Digicash didn't solve it.  Paypal and Mastercard didn't solve it.  Cash doesn't solve it.  Bitcoin has a very clever solution to a very difficult problem.  And it's the first to solve it.  So Bitcoin is going to get attention.  And with attention comes investment.  And with investment comes a rise in value.  As long as Bitcoin continues to GROW in the attention it gets, chances are good that people will try to figure out how to invest in it.  And to see that there were only 61,000 accounts in the Mt. Gox leaked database, that shows how truly tiny the Bitcoin community is.  In fact, there were less than 10,000 prior to May 15th or so.
Digicash came close. They had an anonymous digital currency. The technology was good enough. but David Chaum, who owned the technology, botched several potential big deals, including ones with Microsoft and Visa.

How issuance of a digital currency should work isn't clear. Digicash and Beenz were centralized.  Bitcoin is based on compute work, with a heavy bias towards early adopters. That doesn't seem to be leading to wide adoption as a transactional medium.  Beenz got much further in adoption, and it tanked. If coins were somehow generated by doing useful work, that would be better.
Quote
Currency speculation isn't the best way to make money in Bitcoin.  Building the infrastructure is.  (There's a reason why the remnants of the Gold Rush of 1849 are Wells Fargo and Levis Jeans.  
Ah, the Big Four. Huntington (hardware), Stanford (railroads), Hopkins (hardware), and Crocker (iron). The real remnant of the Gold Rush is the Southern Pacific Railroad.

There's something to be said for that.  

The experience of PayPal is significant.  PayPal is all infrastructure.  PayPal is really a security company. They started by building authentication tokens. Money transfer came later. Most of what PayPal does is deal with security problems. Processing a successful transaction is very cheap. Dealing with trouble requires call centers, investigators, and substantial automated systems looking for fraud. PayPal originally offered peer to peer transfers, but the security problems associated with that were too great.

The Mt. Gox debacle indicates the same may be true for Bitcoin.

Quote
If Bitcoin reaches Paypal's level of success in a decade, then you can do the math - there's a limited number of Bitcoins, and that number needs to support the sort of environment that Paypal supports.  So that means they will be worth over $100 in about 7.5 years.   Not thousands.  Not mllions.  But between $100 and $200.

August 16, 2001: "If you've earned any Beenz on your travels around the Web, you'd better hurry up and spend them." "Internet surfers have only 10 days to use up their Beenz after the company announced Thursday that its online operations will cease Aug. 26. Any outstanding Beenz will be worthless after that date. A short message on the Beenz Web site announced the close and said any Beenz in a member's account after Aug. 26 "will be invalidated by Beenz.com, and the member will not be entitled to any compensation of any kind for such invalidated Beenz."

Although Bitcoin is distributed as to generation and transfer, it's centralized as to exchanges.  A sizable level of activity is required for an exchange to have market depth. So there's a network effect which tends to keep the number of exchanges down. (Yes, potentially there could be a combined ticker and a consolidated limit order book. Those only work when there's a separation between brokers and exchanges.) So, if Bitcoin winds down, it will be because it becomes illiquid.
member
Activity: 92
Merit: 10
June 24, 2011, 02:46:52 PM
#53
We are creating an entirely new web of powerful encrypted transactions that not even the best hackers in the world can crack. Tell me how that's not value people?

I posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:



The technical hubris in this thread is quite amusing.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 101
June 24, 2011, 02:44:01 PM
#52


If you look at Bitcoins as analogous to the Gold Rush of 1849, it might provide a better parallel.  Early miners made a lot of money, while later miners "made a living".  If you had never heard of a gold rush, and 1849 hit, and you heard of a lot of people getting rich on gold, you (as an uneducated person) might be tempted to buy gold.  This, of course, would be silly, except that a lot of people buying gold drives the price of gold up, and so as gold gets attention, people see that others have made money buying gold, and so you get the bubble.  People buying Bitcoin is a lot like people buying gold in 1849 - it doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you believe that it either is a) a good store of wealth, or b) going to rise in utility /value in the future.

Bitcoin is going to get more attention primarily because it has solved a problem that has never been solved before - Beenz and Digicash didn't solve it.  Paypal and Mastercard didn't solve it.  Cash doesn't solve it.  Bitcoin has a very clever solution to a very difficult problem.  And it's the first to solve it.  So Bitcoin is going to get attention.  And with attention comes investment.  And with investment comes a rise in value.  As long as Bitcoin continues to GROW in the attention it gets, chances are good that people will try to figure out how to invest in it.  And to see that there were only 61,000 accounts in the Mt. Gox leaked database, that shows how truly tiny the Bitcoin community is.  In fact, there were less than 10,000 prior to May 15th or so.


This is an excellent post. Very well said. I'll be saving this one as well...
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1015
June 24, 2011, 02:42:06 PM
#51
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