Topic: Weekly loss of N% guaranteed - Enjoy perpetual loss with fixed Mh/s mining turds - page 8. (Read 14714 times)

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:01:44 AM

I was referring to bonds invested only butterfly equipment with SC upgrade plans. Your correct though.

BFL offers 100% refund on their fpgas if you "upgrade" to asics. Does your bond?
And mind, I think its bonkers to buy an FPGA today even if you want to trade it in. You can guess what that makes me think of buying perpetual mining bonds that cost even more.

Upgrades will be free.

Yeah, a 5x increase and afaik, thats only for gigamining.
But if you trade in the BFL hardware, you get a 20x increase in GH/$.

I specifically said companies invested in butterfly only, like mine. Gigamining is not all fpga. I'm increasing the hashrate 21.5x if they meet the specs.

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AKA: gigavps

Quote from: EskimoBob on August 07, 2012, 05:44:50 AM

Quote from: P4man on August 07, 2012, 03:39:16 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 03:27:15 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:01:44 AM

I was referring to bonds invested only butterfly equipment with SC upgrade plans. Your correct though.

BFL offers 100% refund on their fpgas if you "upgrade" to asics. Does your bond?
And mind, I think its bonkers to buy an FPGA today even if you want to trade it in. You can guess what that makes me think of buying perpetual mining bonds that cost even more.

Upgrades will be free.

Yeah, a 5x increase and afaik, thats only for gigamining.
But if you trade in the BFL hardware, you get a 20x increase in GH/$.

So basically gigavps devalues your existing bonds by 4 times if you take the "free upgrade" and if you pay .25 BTC extra (additional 25% from IPO price), you get a upgrade, you actually must for free in the first place. Yes, for free! Because equipment is paid by bitcoins from IPO - your money, bondholders.
If this is correct, then this must be the worst upgrade path ever proposed by any mining contract out there.

EskimoBob,

It seems you only like to rant without answering any specific questions. If you don't like the plans I have laid out for my bond holders to upgrade to ASIC hardware, please come back to my thread and answer the questions I asked you there. I even sent you a PM regarding this some time ago.

Best,
gigavps

Quote from: gigavps on July 24, 2012, 12:32:01 AM

Hi EskimoBob,

If you get a moment, I posed some questions to you in my response to your posts in the gigamining thread. I would like to hear your answers so that I can improve Gigamining / Teramining if possible.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1048217

Best,
gigavps

EskimoBob

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Quote from: P4man on August 07, 2012, 06:12:22 AM

Quote from: EskimoBob on August 07, 2012, 05:44:50 AM

So basically gigavps devalues your existing bonds by 4 times if you take the "free upgrade" and if you pay .25 BTC extra (additional 25% from IPO price), you get a upgrade, you actually must for free in the first place. Yes, for free! Because equipment is paid by bitcoins from IPO - your money, bondholders.
If this is correct, then this must be the worst upgrade path ever proposed by any mining contract out there.

No, giga gives a free upgrade path, which he is under absolutely zero obligation to do. Most other bond issuers dont and wont. If anything, I think Giga is being quite generous. Not that it will fundamentally change the fact that these bonds, even the upgraded ones will most likely turn out to be terrible investments. But you bought mining bonds not shares. You dont own the fpgas, you have no claim to the upgrade. Giga owns it and only owes you coupon payments that are function of difficulty, no more, no less. Those payments will become worthless as mining revenue per GH is about to vaporize, but thats not giga's fault and its not up to him to compensate anyone for their stupidity.

BTW, the fact giga will trade 5MH bonds for 20MH bonds for free, just shows you how incredibly overpriced these things are.

OK, thanks for clearing this up.

P4man

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Quote from: EskimoBob on August 07, 2012, 05:44:50 AM

So basically gigavps devalues your existing bonds by 4 times if you take the "free upgrade" and if you pay .25 BTC extra (additional 25% from IPO price), you get a upgrade, you actually must for free in the first place. Yes, for free! Because equipment is paid by bitcoins from IPO - your money, bondholders.
If this is correct, then this must be the worst upgrade path ever proposed by any mining contract out there.

No, giga gives a free upgrade path, which he is under absolutely zero obligation to do. Most other bond issuers dont and wont. If anything, I think Giga is being quite generous. Not that it will fundamentally change the fact that these bonds, even the upgraded ones will most likely turn out to be terrible investments. But you bought mining bonds not shares. You dont own the fpgas, you have no claim to the upgrade. Giga owns it and only owes you coupon payments that are function of difficulty, no more, no less. Those payments will become worthless as mining revenue per GH is about to vaporize, but thats not giga's fault and its not up to him to compensate anyone for their stupidity.

BTW, the fact giga will trade 5MH bonds for 20MH bonds for free, just shows you how incredibly overpriced these things are.

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Quote from: P4man on August 06, 2012, 03:09:29 PM

As for synthetic bonds lowering the price; it shouldnt. If it does, then you paid too much for yours

It was not the whole point of this thread?

EskimoBob

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Quote from: P4man on August 07, 2012, 03:39:16 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 03:27:15 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:01:44 AM

I was referring to bonds invested only butterfly equipment with SC upgrade plans. Your correct though.

BFL offers 100% refund on their fpgas if you "upgrade" to asics. Does your bond?
And mind, I think its bonkers to buy an FPGA today even if you want to trade it in. You can guess what that makes me think of buying perpetual mining bonds that cost even more.

Upgrades will be free.

Yeah, a 5x increase and afaik, thats only for gigamining.
But if you trade in the BFL hardware, you get a 20x increase in GH/$.

So basically gigavps devalues your existing bonds by 4 times if you take the "free upgrade" and if you pay .25 BTC extra (additional 25% from IPO price), you get a upgrade, you actually must for free in the first place. Yes, for free! Because equipment is paid by bitcoins from IPO - your money, bondholders.
If this is correct, then this must be the worst upgrade path ever proposed by any mining contract out there.

imsaguy

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Quote from: FreeMoney on August 07, 2012, 12:53:24 AM

Quote

People buying singles from butterfly are in the same boat as people buying bonds.

Here is the thing though: no one in their right minds would order a BFL single today if he didnt intend to trade it in for ASICs.
No one.

Wrong. You can still sell a bfl single in 4 months time to someone else upgrading to ASIC.

sarpar

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Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:03:29 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 06, 2012, 03:56:57 PM

The dollar amount is all that matters. I really don't care how many bitcoins I get back from my investments. I care about how much money I get back.

Then you should speculate on btc value instead of betting the wrong way on mining difficulty.

+1

I think it's worth mentioning another difference between mining bonds backed by fictional and actual hardware- some people may invest with the hopes of helping to secure the network by increasing the total hashing power. Obviously that doesn't happen w/ fictional hardware

I would hope none of the bonds are backed my fictional hardware. I know some bonds are being sold before equipment is ordered. If they intend on ordering, I don't see anything wrong with that. I may take pictures and post a link on my thread. I don't sell any bonds if I don't have the actual hashing power to back them up. I've only taken that approach to protect myself. It's possible butterfly may run out of old singles or take longer then expected to deliver them. Returns are almost 10% monthly on bonds right now, it would not take long to lose a large amount of money.

Do you have a problem with people who don't farm corn selling corn futures?

Yes I do,
As stated by others you have an additional emittent risk. Such risks (especially in an anonymous bitcoin world) don't come cheap.
So as a result an insurance to cover a non backed bond issuer would be more expensive than mining earnings - definitely that is not the investment i am looking for.
In traditional banking you carefully select futures by whom they are issued. Ratings and margin monitoring contrary to the bitcoin world helps you deciding - but still it is no easy task

P4man

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Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 03:27:15 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:01:44 AM

I was referring to bonds invested only butterfly equipment with SC upgrade plans. Your correct though.

BFL offers 100% refund on their fpgas if you "upgrade" to asics. Does your bond?
And mind, I think its bonkers to buy an FPGA today even if you want to trade it in. You can guess what that makes me think of buying perpetual mining bonds that cost even more.

Upgrades will be free.

Yeah, a 5x increase and afaik, thats only for gigamining.
But if you trade in the BFL hardware, you get a 20x increase in GH/$.

cuz0882

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:01:44 AM

I was referring to bonds invested only butterfly equipment with SC upgrade plans. Your correct though.

BFL offers 100% refund on their fpgas if you "upgrade" to asics. Does your bond?
And mind, I think its bonkers to buy an FPGA today even if you want to trade it in. You can guess what that makes me think of buying perpetual mining bonds that cost even more.

Upgrades will be free.

P4man

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:01:44 AM

I was referring to bonds invested only butterfly equipment with SC upgrade plans. Your correct though.

BFL offers 100% refund on their fpgas if you "upgrade" to asics. Does your bond?
And mind, I think its bonkers to buy an FPGA today even if you want to trade it in. You can guess what that makes me think of buying perpetual mining bonds that cost even more.

cuz0882

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: FreeMoney on August 07, 2012, 12:53:24 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:03:29 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 06, 2012, 03:56:57 PM

The dollar amount is all that matters. I really don't care how many bitcoins I get back from my investments. I care about how much money I get back.

Then you should speculate on btc value instead of betting the wrong way on mining difficulty.

+1

I think it's worth mentioning another difference between mining bonds backed by fictional and actual hardware- some people may invest with the hopes of helping to secure the network by increasing the total hashing power. Obviously that doesn't happen w/ fictional hardware

I would hope none of the bonds are backed my fictional hardware. I know some bonds are being sold before equipment is ordered. If they intend on ordering, I don't see anything wrong with that. I may take pictures and post a link on my thread. I don't sell any bonds if I don't have the actual hashing power to back them up. I've only taken that approach to protect myself. It's possible butterfly may run out of old singles or take longer then expected to deliver them. Returns are almost 10% monthly on bonds right now, it would not take long to lose a large amount of money.

Do you have a problem with people who don't farm corn selling corn futures?

Not that I know of, I've never looked into it. I would have a problem if I paid someone x amount of money to purchase a piece of land, and farm corn on it. Giving me a share of the corn each year. And instead of purchasing land, he just used the money to buy corn every year and pays me that way.

FreeMoney

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Quote from: cuz0882 on August 07, 2012, 12:03:29 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 06, 2012, 03:56:57 PM

The dollar amount is all that matters. I really don't care how many bitcoins I get back from my investments. I care about how much money I get back.

Then you should speculate on btc value instead of betting the wrong way on mining difficulty.

+1

I think it's worth mentioning another difference between mining bonds backed by fictional and actual hardware- some people may invest with the hopes of helping to secure the network by increasing the total hashing power. Obviously that doesn't happen w/ fictional hardware

I would hope none of the bonds are backed my fictional hardware. I know some bonds are being sold before equipment is ordered. If they intend on ordering, I don't see anything wrong with that. I may take pictures and post a link on my thread. I don't sell any bonds if I don't have the actual hashing power to back them up. I've only taken that approach to protect myself. It's possible butterfly may run out of old singles or take longer then expected to deliver them. Returns are almost 10% monthly on bonds right now, it would not take long to lose a large amount of money.

Do you have a problem with people who don't farm corn selling corn futures?

cuz0882

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Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 06, 2012, 03:56:57 PM

The dollar amount is all that matters. I really don't care how many bitcoins I get back from my investments. I care about how much money I get back.

Then you should speculate on btc value instead of betting the wrong way on mining difficulty.

+1

I think it's worth mentioning another difference between mining bonds backed by fictional and actual hardware- some people may invest with the hopes of helping to secure the network by increasing the total hashing power. Obviously that doesn't happen w/ fictional hardware

I would hope none of the bonds are backed my fictional hardware. I know some bonds are being sold before equipment is ordered. If they intend on ordering, I don't see anything wrong with that. I may take pictures and post a link on my thread. I don't sell any bonds if I don't have the actual hashing power to back them up. I've only taken that approach to protect myself. It's possible butterfly may run out of old singles or take longer then expected to deliver them. Returns are almost 10% monthly on bonds right now, it would not take long to lose a large amount of money.

cuz0882

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Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 06, 2012, 03:56:57 PM

The dollar amount is all that matters. I really don't care how many bitcoins I get back from my investments. I care about how much money I get back.

Then you should speculate on btc value instead of betting the wrong way on mining difficulty.

Quote

People buying singles from butterfly are in the same boat as people buying bonds.

Here is the thing though: no one in their right minds would order a BFL single today if he didnt intend to trade it in for ASICs.
No one.

I was referring to bonds invested only butterfly equipment with SC upgrade plans. Your correct though.

rxw

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