Weekly loss of N% guaranteed - Enjoy perpetual loss with fixed Mh/s mining turds - page 3.

bitcoinbear

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Quote from: P4man on August 25, 2012, 04:15:16 AM

Quote from: racerguy on August 25, 2012, 04:12:08 AM

Yes it's possible just holding btc could be more profitable(and it has been over the last few months), but it's also more risky because if the price falls by 50% your wealth falls by 50% where as holding mining bonds you would be better protected in such a situation. Basically the reason you think mining bonds are turds is because you could put your wealth into something riskier and potentially profit even more - well duh but you're forgetting you could also lose a lot more if things go south too.

The issue with those bonds is that they will lose value even if BTC price goes up.

The issue with those bonds is that they will also lose value even if BTC price goes down.

EskimoBob

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cuz0882, you keep calling me troll. I like to know, what exactly is your problem? If you do not mind, pleas send me a PM and stop whining here.

Lest look at the HYDRO coupon payments

Code:

date	           payment 	      change form previous
2012-06-24 18:21	0.04250000	
2012-07-01 08:42	0.04142857	-2.52%
2012-07-08 08:24	0.04034090	-2.63%
2012-07-15 07:56	0.04019607	-0.36%
2012-07-22 19:21	0.03833992	-4.62%
2012-07-29 04:49	0.03771493	-1.63%
2012-08-05 16:00	0.03547034	-5.95%
2012-08-12 08:27	0.03457760	-2.52%
2012-08-20 04:01	0.03214346	-7.04%

Total: 0.34271179

Your "bond" holders are in green, if they this simple calculation returns a positive number: 'sale price'-'price bought'+'coupon payment received'
If they bought those at IPO, they are fine unless the price drops below 1.73-0.34271179=1.38728821.

This is what I see at the moment in GLBSE (bid):

Quote from: sunnankar on August 06, 2012, 12:52:40 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on June 22, 2012, 01:04:06 AM

I have made a update regarding the ASIC announcement. I set the bond price at 1.73 btc.

Is there something unclear about the announcement that would lead to uncertainty or are these currently undervalued compared to GIGAMINING or BITBONDS?

GIGAMINING - 1.13 - .226
BITBONDS - 0.45 - .214
HYDRO.BONDS - 1.335 - .1335

This had a positive effect to https://glbse.com/asset/view/HYDRO.BONDS price and whopping 347 BTC worth of trades (close to 3 weeks) helped the "bond" out of its all time low of 1.24.
As of today, only 18 BTC worth of trades can send the bond back to "not so funny" price range.
DO not fool yourself, your bond will lose value as difficulty rises because the damn Mh/s can produce less and less bitcoins. I am not saying, that mining is not profitable to you, I am saying, perpetual miningturds are a guaranteed to be losers from day one. If the difficulty trend changes, things will get better but as of now, I see no reason for this to happen.

If you like to call someone a troll, go take a peek at the mirror.

cuz0882

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Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: Bitcoin Oz on August 25, 2012, 09:47:11 AM

Quote from: misterbigg on August 25, 2012, 09:43:47 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 04, 2012, 07:37:30 PM

It's highly profitable even with the dividend returns likely lowering over time. Hydro bonds has been paying out almost 2.5% weekly...
I must say this EskimoBob. You are the most annoying TROLL I have seen on this forum.

So...

And you're saying HYDRO.BONDS is profitable? I suppose if you only bought 13 shares. Any more than that, and you'd have no buyers. Unless you want to sell at 0.001BTC

There is no escape.....

More then that have sold this morning, and it wasn't because anyone lowered the price to fill a bid order. Saying you can only sell x amount, because x = bid orders is pretty ignorant.

Bitcoin Oz

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Wat

Quote from: misterbigg on August 25, 2012, 09:43:47 AM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 04, 2012, 07:37:30 PM

It's highly profitable even with the dividend returns likely lowering over time. Hydro bonds has been paying out almost 2.5% weekly...
I must say this EskimoBob. You are the most annoying TROLL I have seen on this forum.

So...

And you're saying HYDRO.BONDS is profitable? I suppose if you only bought 13 shares. Any more than that, and you'd have no buyers. Unless you want to sell at 0.001BTC

There is no escape.....

misterbigg

legendary

Activity: 1064

Merit: 1001

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 04, 2012, 07:37:30 PM

It's highly profitable even with the dividend returns likely lowering over time. Hydro bonds has been paying out almost 2.5% weekly...
I must say this EskimoBob. You are the most annoying TROLL I have seen on this forum.

So...

And you're saying HYDRO.BONDS is profitable? I suppose if you only bought 13 shares. Any more than that, and you'd have no buyers. Unless you want to sell at 0.001BTC

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

Quote from: misterbigg on August 25, 2012, 09:01:05 AM

Simple Google search shows that EsikimoBob is right on all counts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_rate_note

Simple Google search shows that EsikimoBob is cool:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=EsikimoBob

misterbigg

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Activity: 1064

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Simple Google search shows that EsikimoBob is right on all counts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_rate_note

P4man

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Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: racerguy on August 25, 2012, 04:12:08 AM

Yes it's possible just holding btc could be more profitable(and it has been over the last few months), but it's also more risky because if the price falls by 50% your wealth falls by 50% where as holding mining bonds you would be better protected in such a situation. Basically the reason you think mining bonds are turds is because you could put your wealth into something riskier and potentially profit even more - well duh but you're forgetting you could also lose a lot more if things go south too.

The issue with those bonds is that they will lose value even if BTC price goes up.

racerguy

sr. member

Activity: 270

Merit: 250

Quote from: EskimoBob on August 25, 2012, 03:27:48 AM

Quote from: racerguy on August 25, 2012, 02:05:34 AM

Eskimobob, wealth isn't however much of currency N you hold, it's how much real stuff you can buy with currency N. If you believe wealth is whatever some numbers on a computer somewhere says instead of the amount of real stuff you have bankers are gonna own your ass bitcoin or no bitcoin.

I do not recall arguing against it. Buy miningturds (fixed Mh/s perpetual "bonds") and it's guaranteed, that every month you can buy less crap with your coin (what ever currency) if you cash in your "investment".
If some of you still think that miningturds are a good investment, please use simple calculations and actual data from GLBSE to confirm, what so many have told in this thread - your dividends will not cover your loss of principal even if BTC:USD price improves over time. You are better off sitting in BTC.
How hard is it to understand this?
If you have difficulty understanding 1+1-3=-1, please go play somewhere else

Yes it's possible just holding btc could be more profitable(and it has been over the last few months), but it's also more risky because if the price falls by 50% your wealth falls by 50% where as holding mining bonds you would be better protected in such a situation. Basically the reason you think mining bonds are turds is because you could put your wealth into something riskier and potentially profit even more - well duh but you're forgetting you could also lose a lot more if things go south too.

EskimoBob

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Activity: 910

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Quality Printing Services by Federal Reserve Bank

Quote from: racerguy on August 25, 2012, 02:05:34 AM

Eskimobob, wealth isn't however much of currency N you hold, it's how much real stuff you can buy with currency N. If you believe wealth is whatever some numbers on a computer somewhere says instead of the amount of real stuff you have bankers are gonna own your ass bitcoin or no bitcoin.

I do not recall arguing against it. Buy miningturds (fixed Mh/s perpetual "bonds") and it's guaranteed, that every month you can buy less crap with your coin (what ever currency) if you cash in your "investment".
If some of you still think that miningturds are a good investment, please use simple calculations and actual data from GLBSE to confirm, what so many have told in this thread - your dividends will not cover your loss of principal even if BTC:USD price improves over time. You are better off sitting in BTC.
How hard is it to understand this?
If you have difficulty understanding 1+1-3=-1, please go play somewhere else

racerguy

sr. member

Activity: 270

Merit: 250

Eskimobob, wealth isn't however much of currency N you hold, it's how much real stuff you can buy with currency N. If you believe wealth is whatever some numbers on a computer somewhere says instead of the amount of real stuff you have bankers are gonna own your ass bitcoin or no bitcoin.

Bitcoin Oz

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Wat

Quote from: matthewh3 on August 24, 2012, 09:22:45 PM

Quote from: Bitcoin Oz on August 24, 2012, 09:14:20 PM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 16, 2012, 07:44:04 PM

Your views are so distorted on mining and bonds its ridiculous. Mining is more profitable right now, then it was this time last year. A bond worth 10mhash pays just as much as mining 10mhash yourself. Bonds hold their value when the btc price changes just like mining equipment.

Holding the price of a mining bond at a set btc amount or having dividends paid that way is ridiculous. If you don't think so write up a contract that way. Even if it was possible, there would be nothing safe about having your initial investment or dividends always hold the same btc amount. If the price of btc dropped down to 6 dollars you would have lost half your investment. If the value of btc went up, who would buy that bond? Not the issuer, he spent your investment on mining equipment to pay your dividends. Since the btc price went up he owes you more then that equipment is even worth now. With the increased price came increased difficulty, now he can't even pay dividends and is about to default on the contract. No one else is buying your bond either, your asking way to much for it. They decide to buy the bond from the new issuer like yours, except that it came out after the price went up. Of course this is assuming anyone would be stupid enough to purchase them in the first place.

When you get a car loan your payments dont decrease because the car depreciates in value. A bond is a loan and you should get back your principal + your interest. Otherwise you are better off just loaning coins to Patrick Harnett at a constant 1% a week return.

Investing with Patrick relies on him not messing up. With RSM - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/796com-redstarminingcom-the-oldest-public-mining-security-150ths-63257 - you own a share of all the hardware, wallet and anything else of value as long as you trust me not to disappear. Major investors can be added to my personal Facebook page where I have over thirty family members all confirmed by relationship.

Patrick doesnt let someone borrow off him and pay back less than what he lent out.

matthewh3

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Activity: 1372

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Quote from: Bitcoin Oz on August 24, 2012, 09:14:20 PM

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 16, 2012, 07:44:04 PM

Your views are so distorted on mining and bonds its ridiculous. Mining is more profitable right now, then it was this time last year. A bond worth 10mhash pays just as much as mining 10mhash yourself. Bonds hold their value when the btc price changes just like mining equipment.

Holding the price of a mining bond at a set btc amount or having dividends paid that way is ridiculous. If you don't think so write up a contract that way. Even if it was possible, there would be nothing safe about having your initial investment or dividends always hold the same btc amount. If the price of btc dropped down to 6 dollars you would have lost half your investment. If the value of btc went up, who would buy that bond? Not the issuer, he spent your investment on mining equipment to pay your dividends. Since the btc price went up he owes you more then that equipment is even worth now. With the increased price came increased difficulty, now he can't even pay dividends and is about to default on the contract. No one else is buying your bond either, your asking way to much for it. They decide to buy the bond from the new issuer like yours, except that it came out after the price went up. Of course this is assuming anyone would be stupid enough to purchase them in the first place.

When you get a car loan your payments dont decrease because the car depreciates in value. A bond is a loan and you should get back your principal + your interest. Otherwise you are better off just loaning coins to Patrick Harnett at a constant 1% a week return.

Investing with Patrick relies on him not messing up. With RSM - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/796com-redstarminingcom-the-oldest-public-mining-security-150ths-63257 - you own a share of all the hardware, wallet and anything else of value as long as you trust me not to disappear. Major investors can be added to my personal Facebook page where I have over thirty family members all confirmed by relationship.

Bitcoin Oz

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Wat

Quote from: cuz0882 on August 16, 2012, 07:44:04 PM

Your views are so distorted on mining and bonds its ridiculous. Mining is more profitable right now, then it was this time last year. A bond worth 10mhash pays just as much as mining 10mhash yourself. Bonds hold their value when the btc price changes just like mining equipment.

Holding the price of a mining bond at a set btc amount or having dividends paid that way is ridiculous. If you don't think so write up a contract that way. Even if it was possible, there would be nothing safe about having your initial investment or dividends always hold the same btc amount. If the price of btc dropped down to 6 dollars you would have lost half your investment. If the value of btc went up, who would buy that bond? Not the issuer, he spent your investment on mining equipment to pay your dividends. Since the btc price went up he owes you more then that equipment is even worth now. With the increased price came increased difficulty, now he can't even pay dividends and is about to default on the contract. No one else is buying your bond either, your asking way to much for it. They decide to buy the bond from the new issuer like yours, except that it came out after the price went up. Of course this is assuming anyone would be stupid enough to purchase them in the first place.

When you get a car loan your payments dont decrease because the car depreciates in value. A bond is a loan and you should get back your principal + your interest. Otherwise you are better off just loaning coins to Patrick Harnett at a constant 1% a week return.

matthewh3

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Activity: 1372

Merit: 1003

Quote from: bitcoinbear on August 24, 2012, 08:53:02 PM

Quote from: matthewh3 on August 24, 2012, 08:43:14 PM

I agree buying a fixed MH/s rate perpetual bond in bitcoin mining doesn't make sense with the long term trend in increasing network difficulty hash-rate. That's why at RSM - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/796com-redstarminingcom-the-oldest-public-mining-security-150ths-63257 - you own actually own a share of all the hardware, wallet and anything else of value. With us also saving between 90% to 50% of mining profits (to be decided by motion) to purchase more ASIC's to increase the MH/s a share-rate to beat the long term trend in growth increasing network difficulty hash-rate. Meaning our share price value shouldn't decrease on the long term trend of increasing network difficulty like fixed rate bonds but actually grow and with that you will get a weekly dividend.

But what you describe is a share of a bitcoin mining operation, which is totally different than a fixed hash bond. A fixed share bond only makes sense to buy if you think the difficulty will go down, which has not happened even when the bitcoin price dropped by an order of magnitude.

If difficult goes down on a long term trend then that means bitcoin is going (down) out of use on a long term trend.

bitcoinbear

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Quote from: matthewh3 on August 24, 2012, 08:43:14 PM

I agree buying a fixed MH/s rate perpetual bond in bitcoin mining doesn't make sense with the long term trend in increasing network difficulty hash-rate. That's why at RSM - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/796com-redstarminingcom-the-oldest-public-mining-security-150ths-63257 - you own actually own a share of all the hardware, wallet and anything else of value. With us also saving between 90% to 50% of mining profits (to be decided by motion) to purchase more ASIC's to increase the MH/s a share-rate to beat the long term trend in growth increasing network difficulty hash-rate. Meaning our share price value shouldn't decrease on the long term trend of increasing network difficulty like fixed rate bonds but actually grow and with that you will get a weekly dividend.

But what you describe is a share of a bitcoin mining operation, which is totally different than a fixed hash bond. A fixed share bond only makes sense to buy if you think the difficulty will go down, which has not happened even when the bitcoin price dropped by an order of magnitude.

matthewh3

legendary

Activity: 1372

Merit: 1003

I agree buying a fixed MH/s rate perpetual bond in bitcoin mining doesn't make sense with the long term trend in increasing network difficulty hash-rate. That's why at RSM - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/796com-redstarminingcom-the-oldest-public-mining-security-150ths-63257 - you own actually own a share of all the hardware, wallet and anything else of value. With us also saving between 90% to 50% of mining profits (to be decided by motion) to purchase more ASIC's to increase the MH/s a share-rate to beat the long term trend in growth increasing network difficulty hash-rate. Meaning our share price value shouldn't decrease on the long term trend of increasing network difficulty like fixed rate bonds but actually grow and with that you will get a weekly dividend.

organofcorti

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Poor impulse control.

Quote from: EskimoBob on August 18, 2012, 09:50:13 AM

lets keep it civilized.

lol

EskimoBob

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Quality Printing Services by Federal Reserve Bank

lets keep it civilized.

So, for a while it looked like there will be a new name for those so called "bonds".

ciuciu

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Quote from: MPOE-PR on August 18, 2012, 08:08:20 AM

Quote

Lending to greece and spain was never this profitable either

Something like that.

The ideas of a stolen porn website operator, sure bring a lot of "substance" to the discussion. Mircea have you got some pictures?

Topic: Weekly loss of N% guaranteed - Enjoy perpetual loss with fixed Mh/s mining turds - page 3. (Read 14714 times)