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Topic: What are the most convincing arguments against Bitcoin? (Read 9236 times)

legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
In the long term?

It's called a quantum-computer and it can make a bit be 0 and 1 at the SAME time, potentially solving any hash in a matter of microseconds.
So far, this still a theoretical thing, but scientists are working and getting closer on the concept.
If anything can destroy bitcoin at it's core, its that thing.

But that will not increase the amount of Bitcoins being generated. The rate of creation of new BTCs will remain unchanged. So this will only be having a minimal effect.

Except that every bitcoin adress whith a balance on it will be compromised and the owner of the quantumcomputer can use all those coins as if they were in his wallet. LOL
No problem here surely! Did you know that a keypair is created using cryptography as well? Cheesy
Herpderp. Cool

Bitcoins are not under great threat by the develpment of a practical quantum computer.  They're not magic, Bitcoin is fairly resistant to quantum brute forcing already, and can be upgraded if the threat proves real.

On what facts do you base that?

the wiki for quantum computing very clearly states:

Quote
Besides factorization and discrete logarithms, quantum algorithms offering a more than polynomial speedup over the best known classical algorithm have been found for several problems,[19] including the simulation of quantum physical processes from chemistry and solid state physics, the approximation of Jones polynomials, and solving Pell's equation. No mathematical proof has been found that shows that an equally fast classical algorithm cannot be discovered, although this is considered unlikely. For some problems, quantum computers offer a polynomial speedup. The most well-known example of this is quantum database search, which can be solved by Grover's algorithm using quadratically fewer queries to the database than are required by classical algorithms. In this case the advantage is provable. Several other examples of provable quantum speedups for query problems have subsequently been discovered, such as for finding collisions in two-to-one functions and evaluating NAND trees.

Consider a problem that has these four properties:

    The only way to solve it is to guess answers repeatedly and check them,
    The number of possible answers to check is the same as the number of inputs,
    Every possible answer takes the same amount of time to check, and
    There are no clues about which answers might be better: generating possibilities randomly is just as good as checking them in some special order.

An example of this is a password cracker that attempts to guess the password for an encrypted file (assuming that the password has a maximum possible length).

For problems with all four properties, the time for a quantum computer to solve this will be proportional to the square root of the number of inputs. That can be a very large speedup, reducing some problems from years to seconds. It can be used to attack symmetric ciphers such as Triple DES and AES by attempting to guess the secret key.

As far as i know SHA is one of the algorithms that is threatened by this. Show me what magical special defense system bitcoin has against this potential threath plz. Tongue

As noted very well by Nancarrow, quantum computing simply shortcuts some poarts of chryptography, but other parts are no faster.  The thinkg about Bitcoin is that it's not based upon the abiluty to hide a secret text from veiwing, but to make the proof-of-work system viable.  The most likley result of quantum computing on Bitcoin would be an increase in the hashing rate in the same way that moving from CPU's to GPU's to ASICs have increaced the hashrate, and even then, if we don't likel it, we can switch the algo to something more quantum resistiant.  The part that is most at risk in Bitcoin is the private keypaairs to the addresses, but even then, Bitcoin uses an upgrade path to address algos that permits a quantum resistant algo to be adopted in place of the current (version 1 address start with a "1") address algo.  Again, quantum computing is not magic.
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250
For our domestic help, I'm starting to put their bonuses, that I don't tell them about into btc, and then come back 4 months later with, here's your massive bonus!


But why not just tell them? Maybe they will come around and ask to have some of their salary in BTC!
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0

Interesting story. Next time keep some BTC in a wallet off the exchange so you can have it handy at any time you might need them!

I do agree with you to the extent that only the people who can afford to save money are those who can have Bitcoin. But I think you are being slightly socio-culturally myopic, as even poor people can afford to save. Just look at China or India, where even extremely poor people do all they can to save as much as possible. You don't have to make more than you can spend to afford to save, you just have to spend less than you make.

I did have enough off the exchange to complete the transaction, but because Cavirtex is blocking cash deposits even from Canadian banks accounts if initiated from an international IP, the issue was that we couldn't buy more BTC (except for with the last $3000 we had on there), and my wife wasn't allowing us to part with any BTC while that was true.

I agree for the sake of making the point I was a little socio-economically myopic. One of my poorest friends was the one who got me into bitcoin, and was working his ass off and not spending anything to keep getting money in from $7. He's now one of the most well to do people I know.

The big reason I can say we're truly middle class now is because of bitcoin and getting fiat in there quickly. We now have a family code phrase - "times 7". Meaning if we don't spend it or put off the purchase and get the money into bitcoin instead, that those dollars will be worth 7x more in however many months.

A lot of people I tell about it these days, when they hear the price say or immediately think, 'oh, I can't even buy one this month or next.' I gotta get into telling them that even just buying .3 btc now is like buying 150 ounces of gold for $250.

For our domestic help, I'm starting to put their bonuses, that I don't tell them about into btc, and then come back 4 months later with, here's your massive bonus!
member
Activity: 60
Merit: 10
Most of bitcoins weakenses can be solved by the market. whether it be  volatility, difficulty of use or lack of speed.
If it dies it will most likey be because the system has become hacked or some kind of selfish mining. 
hero member
Activity: 492
Merit: 503

Bitcoins are not under great threat by the develpment of a practical quantum computer.  They're not magic, Bitcoin is fairly resistant to quantum brute forcing already, and can be upgraded if the threat proves real.

On what facts do you base that?

the wiki for quantum computing very clearly states:

Quote
Besides factorization and discrete logarithms, quantum algorithms offering a more than polynomial speedup over the best known classical algorithm have been found for several problems,[19] including the simulation of quantum physical processes from chemistry and solid state physics, the approximation of Jones polynomials, and solving Pell's equation. No mathematical proof has been found that shows that an equally fast classical algorithm cannot be discovered, although this is considered unlikely. For some problems, quantum computers offer a polynomial speedup. The most well-known example of this is quantum database search, which can be solved by Grover's algorithm using quadratically fewer queries to the database than are required by classical algorithms. In this case the advantage is provable. Several other examples of provable quantum speedups for query problems have subsequently been discovered, such as for finding collisions in two-to-one functions and evaluating NAND trees.

Consider a problem that has these four properties:

    The only way to solve it is to guess answers repeatedly and check them,
    The number of possible answers to check is the same as the number of inputs,
    Every possible answer takes the same amount of time to check, and
    There are no clues about which answers might be better: generating possibilities randomly is just as good as checking them in some special order.

An example of this is a password cracker that attempts to guess the password for an encrypted file (assuming that the password has a maximum possible length).

For problems with all four properties, the time for a quantum computer to solve this will be proportional to the square root of the number of inputs. That can be a very large speedup, reducing some problems from years to seconds. It can be used to attack symmetric ciphers such as Triple DES and AES by attempting to guess the secret key.

As far as i know SHA is one of the algorithms that is threatened by this. Show me what magical special defense system bitcoin has against this potential threath plz. Tongue

The number of inputs to check is exponential in the size of the input string. So if the input strings are n bits long, we need time of order O(2^n) to 'crack' SHA2 (any variant) on a classical computer. IIUC a quantum computer then reduces this time to O(sqrt(2^n)) which is the same as saying O(2^(n/2)). This is nothing to worry about with the bitcoin protocols (either the mining algo or the key finding algo) as the square root of an exceedingly long time is still an exceedingly long time.

Worst case scenario if it WAS a problem (which it isn't) - we double the length of all bitstrings on which we want SHA2 to act - e.g. we could just switch from SHA256 to SHA512 - and now the quantum computer takes as long to break SHA512 as the classical computer took to break SHA256.
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250
main argument in my opinion: for me as an average joe, bitcoins don't improve my life in any way and don't open up new opportunities. they are hard to obtain and hard to spend. all i can do is to look at charts, gamble, get scammed, buy drugs or exchange bitcoins into other coins called litecoin or dogecoin. here and there you can pay for normal products with bitcoins but i already have a credit card and a paypal account which are much more convenient.

One thing that is clear to me now, is that Bitcoin is like gold, platinum or diamonds, it's not for the average joe, unless you're like me, middle class average Joe and can get %50 of your fiat (i.e., you are not living pay cheque to cheque and actually ahead by 3 cheques) into Bitcoin as your savings that you absolutely won't need for 3 months (and we know what happens to BTC over three months).  But otherwise it's for the very wealthy who live internationally across many different cities, resorts and casinos. Bitcoin is a reserve with high liquidity and very efficient transaction speeds while achieving high security.
We winter in an international surfing town, where I just bought a golf cart (which are hella expensive here). It was a pain in the ass to get the cash out in local currency and I knew it would be. So I talked the family selling me the golf cart into accepting BTC (even though they'd never heard of it) as payment 'cause that would only take 20 mins and I wouldn't have to spend a week at various ATMs that may or may not have connections to my banks back home over the holidays. With daily limits and 5 cards over multiple accounts I got it done with 4.5 hours of my time over two days , $25 in gas and at least $50 in banking and exchange fees. All because my wife vetoed paying in BTC because she wasn't risking BTC when we have a block on our exchange account because of accessing our account from the international IP. She was right, I got much of our last deposited money in at $667 just before the $120+ move over Xmas day, while the Chinese couldn't get money on and the West had bank holidays everywhere btw!

Now apply that to carrying million$ to a high roller poker game over international borders to Macau or Monte Carlo. And I know people who do this... Even who just keep $60,000 in their trunk in case, some purchase or bet comes up. And you start to see the supreme value of keeping even just %10 of your liquidity in the fine and secure reserve of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is multiples higher more efficient and all around superior than gold ever was. That's why I see even $240,000 as cheap (5.6 billion ounces of gold in existence divided by 11 million BTC and you get up there pretty quick, without even factoring for how superior BTC is, of course many of us will likely be in jail for trading btc before it gets to $50,000...).

Interesting story. Next time keep some BTC in a wallet off the exchange so you can have it handy at any time you might need them!

I do agree with you to the extent that only the people who can afford to save money are those who can have Bitcoin. But I think you are being slightly socio-culturally myopic, as even poor people can afford to save. Just look at China or India, where even extremely poor people do all they can to save as much as possible. You don't have to make more than you can spend to afford to save, you just have to spend less than you make.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
main argument in my opinion: for me as an average joe, bitcoins don't improve my life in any way and don't open up new opportunities. they are hard to obtain and hard to spend. all i can do is to look at charts, gamble, get scammed, buy drugs or exchange bitcoins into other coins called litecoin or dogecoin. here and there you can pay for normal products with bitcoins but i already have a credit card and a paypal account which are much more convenient.

One thing that is clear to me now, is that Bitcoin is like gold, platinum or diamonds, it's not for the average joe, unless you're like me, middle class average Joe and can get %50 of your fiat (i.e., you are not living pay cheque to cheque and actually ahead by 3 cheques) into Bitcoin as your savings that you absolutely won't need for 3 months (and we know what happens to BTC over three months).  But otherwise it's for the very wealthy who live internationally across many different cities, resorts and casinos. Bitcoin is a reserve with high liquidity and very efficient transaction speeds while achieving high security.
We winter in an international surfing town, where I just bought a golf cart (which are hella expensive here). It was a pain in the ass to get the cash out in local currency and I knew it would be. So I talked the family selling me the golf cart into accepting BTC (even though they'd never heard of it) as payment 'cause that would only take 20 mins and I wouldn't have to spend a week at various ATMs that may or may not have connections to my banks back home over the holidays. With daily limits and 5 cards over multiple accounts I got it done with 4.5 hours of my time over two days , $25 in gas and at least $50 in banking and exchange fees. All because my wife vetoed paying in BTC because she wasn't risking BTC when we have a block on our exchange account because of accessing our account from the international IP. She was right, I got much of our last deposited money in at $667 just before the $120+ move over Xmas day, while the Chinese couldn't get money on and the West had bank holidays everywhere btw!

Now apply that to carrying million$ to a high roller poker game over international borders to Macau or Monte Carlo. And I know people who do this... Even who just keep $60,000 in their trunk in case, some purchase or bet comes up. And you start to see the supreme value of keeping even just %10 of your liquidity in the fine and secure reserve of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is multiples higher more efficient and all around superior than gold ever was. That's why I see even $240,000 as cheap (5.6 billion ounces of gold in existence divided by 11 million BTC and you get up there pretty quick, without even factoring for how superior BTC is, of course many of us will likely be in jail for trading btc before it gets to $50,000...).
sr. member
Activity: 323
Merit: 250
In the long term?

It's called a quantum-computer and it can make a bit be 0 and 1 at the SAME time, potentially solving any hash in a matter of microseconds.
So far, this still a theoretical thing, but scientists are working and getting closer on the concept.
If anything can destroy bitcoin at it's core, its that thing.

But that will not increase the amount of Bitcoins being generated. The rate of creation of new BTCs will remain unchanged. So this will only be having a minimal effect.

Except that every bitcoin adress whith a balance on it will be compromised and the owner of the quantumcomputer can use all those coins as if they were in his wallet. LOL
No problem here surely! Did you know that a keypair is created using cryptography as well? Cheesy
Herpderp. Cool

Bitcoins are not under great threat by the develpment of a practical quantum computer.  They're not magic, Bitcoin is fairly resistant to quantum brute forcing already, and can be upgraded if the threat proves real.

On what facts do you base that?

the wiki for quantum computing very clearly states:

Quote
Besides factorization and discrete logarithms, quantum algorithms offering a more than polynomial speedup over the best known classical algorithm have been found for several problems,[19] including the simulation of quantum physical processes from chemistry and solid state physics, the approximation of Jones polynomials, and solving Pell's equation. No mathematical proof has been found that shows that an equally fast classical algorithm cannot be discovered, although this is considered unlikely. For some problems, quantum computers offer a polynomial speedup. The most well-known example of this is quantum database search, which can be solved by Grover's algorithm using quadratically fewer queries to the database than are required by classical algorithms. In this case the advantage is provable. Several other examples of provable quantum speedups for query problems have subsequently been discovered, such as for finding collisions in two-to-one functions and evaluating NAND trees.

Consider a problem that has these four properties:

    The only way to solve it is to guess answers repeatedly and check them,
    The number of possible answers to check is the same as the number of inputs,
    Every possible answer takes the same amount of time to check, and
    There are no clues about which answers might be better: generating possibilities randomly is just as good as checking them in some special order.

An example of this is a password cracker that attempts to guess the password for an encrypted file (assuming that the password has a maximum possible length).

For problems with all four properties, the time for a quantum computer to solve this will be proportional to the square root of the number of inputs. That can be a very large speedup, reducing some problems from years to seconds. It can be used to attack symmetric ciphers such as Triple DES and AES by attempting to guess the secret key.

As far as i know SHA is one of the algorithms that is threatened by this. Show me what magical special defense system bitcoin has against this potential threath plz. Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
In the long term?

It's called a quantum-computer and it can make a bit be 0 and 1 at the SAME time, potentially solving any hash in a matter of microseconds.
So far, this still a theoretical thing, but scientists are working and getting closer on the concept.
If anything can destroy bitcoin at it's core, its that thing.

But that will not increase the amount of Bitcoins being generated. The rate of creation of new BTCs will remain unchanged. So this will only be having a minimal effect.

Except that every bitcoin adress whith a balance on it will be compromised and the owner of the quantumcomputer can use all those coins as if they were in his wallet. LOL
No problem here surely! Did you know that a keypair is created using cryptography as well? Cheesy
Herpderp. Cool

Bitcoins are not under great threat by the develpment of a practical quantum computer.  They're not magic, Bitcoin is fairly resistant to quantum brute forcing already, and can be upgraded if the threat proves real.
sr. member
Activity: 323
Merit: 250
In the long term?

It's called a quantum-computer and it can make a bit be 0 and 1 at the SAME time, potentially solving any hash in a matter of microseconds.
So far, this still a theoretical thing, but scientists are working and getting closer on the concept.
If anything can destroy bitcoin at it's core, its that thing.

But that will not increase the amount of Bitcoins being generated. The rate of creation of new BTCs will remain unchanged. So this will only be having a minimal effect.

Except that every bitcoin adress whith a balance on it will be compromised and the owner of the quantumcomputer can use all those coins as if they were in his wallet. LOL
No problem here surely! Did you know that a keypair is created using cryptography as well? Cheesy
Herpderp. Cool
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
The problem with Bitcoin, if it's used %2 as much as the USD for drug lords, is that the CIA doesn't know how to take it's cut from the cartels in BTC. Plus the cartels might be able to hide some it's profits from the CIA so the CIA only gets %7 of the drug trade and laundering instead of %15.
full member
Activity: 148
Merit: 100
money is working well for average citizen and for the economy. only criminals NEED to use bitcoin. they earn a lot. the ebthusiasm of bitcoiners makes criminals rich. u want that to be tbe basis of a new financial order?

edit the idealism and the greed of innocent bitcoiners make criminals rich.
What criminals are you referring to? The guy that drinks too much alcohol on his way home from work and then drives his car when he shouldn't.  We could call him a criminal, does he 'NEED' Bitcoin? Not likely.  Perhaps you are referring to the South American Drug Lord exporting millions of dollars worth of Cocaine into the United States every day, chances are he has never even heard of Bitcoin, so it cannot be him you are referring to.  Maybe you are talking about the Silk Road scandal?  No it can't be that, because that matter is still before the courts (innocent until proven guilty and all...) unless you have a magical crystal ball that lets you see the future.  Not likely.  So I am at a complete loss to understand how you can make that assumption, upon what factual basis do you make such claims.  Has there ever been a verdict handed down by any court in the world that linked Bitcoin with a crime? Ever...?
We need look no further than the Drug Enforcement Administration of the United States of America for statistics on how often 'money' (as you put it) is used in criminal activity's every day.  According to the DEA's own website more than 212 billion dollars in illegal narcotics was sold in the US last year alone, all done with cash.  Should we get rid of money?  As for your comment that 'money is working well for average citizen and for the economy', try telling that to the people all over the world still suffering from the affects of the 2008 Global Economic meltdown.  Unemployment (U-6) is at 14.3% in the US, and in some countries in Europe it is even worse, Greece has an unemployment rate of 27.4%, try convincing someone from Greece that 'money is working well', good luck with that.  The truth is our leaders failed, the banks failed.  If we leave the creation of money in the hands of those that have demonstrated failure in managing the most important aspect of our lives, we let ourselves down.  This cannot be allowed to happen again. Bitcoin is our response.
member
Activity: 117
Merit: 10
Has anyone mentioned off-chain transactions yet? 

My guess is that they're not likely to be a problem for at least 6 reward halvings (ie: 24 years) but after 14 halvings (ie:56 years)  I would expect them to have already started impacting the hash rate and thus blockchain security in a major way.  That is, somewhere between 6 and 14 halvings total payout (block reward + transaction fees) in equivalent fiat at today's dollar value for mining a block will peek and start decling thus causing a peek and decline in mining.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
main argument in my opinion: for me as an average joe, bitcoins don't improve my life in any way and don't open up new opportunities. they are hard to obtain and hard to spend. all i can do is to look at charts, gamble, get scammed, buy drugs or exchange bitcoins into other coins called litecoin or dogecoin. here and there you can pay for normal products with bitcoins but i already have a credit card and a paypal account which are much more convenient. i heard there is a deeper meaning behind bitcoin but it fails to reveal itself in a simple message that's relevant for me and my life. it's something about evil governments and money not being money. didn't get it as i am not so much into wearing teabags or tinfoil hats. one day the greed that's responsible for the rise of bitcoin will move to the next big thing and there won't be much left that's of relevance for an average person like me.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
jinni bitcoin is the future of money. Soon everyone will be using the bitcoins instead of dollars after all it is a great concept where Federal Reserve may not manipulate the market by printing money whenever he wishes to. In my opinion bitcoin shall glow in future in fact it is glowing even today. Just see how its prices escalated in short period.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
1. Buying goods with Bitcoin decreases value as merchants immediately cash out.  New money doesn't flow into falling prices of Bitcoin.

People convert fiat to BTC, in order to purchase products. So this effect is neutralized.

2. Numbers aren't easily digestible.  Ever pay 0.004994321 BTC for a loaf of bread?

That is why an increasing number of merchants use the mBTC.

3. BTC is not deflationary.  Altcoins such as LTC extend the supply if adopted.

Actually it is one of the drawbacks of the LTC.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
1. Buying goods with Bitcoin decreases value as merchants immediately cash out.  New money doesn't flow into falling prices of Bitcoin.

I know a merchants that don't cash out.

2. Numbers aren't easily digestible.  Ever pay 0.004994321 BTC for a loaf of bread?

0.004994321 BTC = 499,432.10 μBTC and what's and easier way of representing $499,432.10?

3. BTC is not deflationary.  Altcoins such as LTC extend the supply if adopted.

Whether or not BTC is deflationary will be determined by the market for altcoins. Capital may be mostly attracted to BTC and if BTC proves itself to be technically sound it will stay there.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
3. BTC is not deflationary.  Altcoins such as LTC extend the supply if adopted.
LTC is to BTC as Dollars is to Yen.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
1. Buying goods with Bitcoin decreases value as merchants immediately cash out.  New money doesn't flow into falling prices of Bitcoin.
2. Numbers aren't easily digestible.  Ever pay 0.004994321 BTC for a loaf of bread?
3. BTC is not deflationary.  Altcoins such as LTC extend the supply if adopted.

ltc != btc
newbie
Activity: 31
Merit: 0
1. Buying goods with Bitcoin decreases value as merchants immediately cash out.  New money doesn't flow into falling prices of Bitcoin.
2. Numbers aren't easily digestible.  Ever pay 0.004994321 BTC for a loaf of bread?
3. BTC is not deflationary.  Altcoins such as LTC extend the supply if adopted.
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