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Topic: What are the most convincing arguments against Bitcoin? - page 4. (Read 9236 times)

sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250
The biggest argument against Bitcoin - and all crypto currencies for that matter - is that everyone thinks everyone else is out to rip them off in one way shape or form. It's sad but when you can't trust anyone, how far can it go?

To use Bitcoin trust is unnecessary. Consensus is necessary. As with trading anything, all parties involved must agree with the value of the item being exchanged. Fiat is backed by trust in the issuing authority. Even transactional trust is unnecessary if you use escrow.

At some point though you would have to trust somebody (maybe not in a financial way), at least in order to be able to feel fully at ease with someone (or anyone). Trust is a great issue with the Bitcoin community, but I believe it already has improved and is improving further, so it is not a long-term issue.

I'm not a programmer, so to some extent I have to trust that those who program my client aren't hiding a backdoor.  If you're not part of the US Federal Reserve or related monetary industry, you have to trust that they will continue to accept such paper for taxes and legal debts.  Faith in some group or another is a reasonable expectation.  Bitcoin shines in that it doesn't require faith in any particular institution, nor is would the Bitcoin economy at large be at risk if (for example) the Bitcoin Foundation were to simply close up shop.

I agree. But I was talking about trust in the community in general. That most people have to be able to trust at least someone to be able to feel safe. For many people, family means great trust. For other people, it is certain friends. In less unequal societies people trust strangers less than in more equal societies. This has good and bad implications. Bad implications because it makes people naĩve, but good because it is a lot less hassle.
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250

The other big problem with Bitcoin is that it isn't legal tender, and thus it is taxed on changes in its value unlike legal tender. Thus Bitcoin can NEVER be a non-anonymous currency.

So Bitcoin has very powerful arguments against it. The OP is naive.

In Germany, neither Gold nor Gold 2.0 is taxed (VAT).

http://www.welt.de/finanzen/article120823372/Zahlungen-mit-Bitcoins-sind-umsatzsteuerfrei.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785


Germany is an example of a country that so far has managed to balance it's socialism with strong individual rights in many cases, after the war it has always championed a hard currency (even if it is a hard fiat currency) in addition to having a strongly federal political system as well as having a populace generally more politically aware than most others. However, they have no freedom of speech for neo-nazi groups, and much worse, criticism of Israel is still taboo.


I think your admiration for the German solution to be misplaced.  It's not just that neo-nazi based ideologies or israeli dissent that is verboten.  Any kind of subculture at all is verboten, although (obviously) some are ignored.   Notablely, however, Christian based homeschooling is not ignored; and a ban on home education of any kind remains in effect as the last edict started by Aldolf hitler still in effect.  Put another way; while politics in Germany functionally ignores the dark side of Islam, but puts devout Christians who consider German state schools to be contrary to their faith in the same catagory as neo-nazi hate groups.  One might come to the conclusion that German polticos fear the idology of such (non-state) Christian spreading into a greater percentage of the electorate. 

I probably was too positive to the "German solution". I do not agree that any kind of subculture is verboten as such, in fact I saw much more subculture in Berlin than I have seen in any western European capital ever. Maybe I got lucky, but my impression was that it was less distance from the general populace than elsewhere - though other places in Germany are supposedly less subculture-friendly as far as I've heard.


I highlighted the operative part of my prior post for you.

Sorry, I was obviously not reading carefully enough - thank you for pointing that out. The question then becomes how many subcultures are ignored and how many are verboten? And how does this ratio compare to other countries?

I admit I am not qualified to answer this as I do not have enough experience with German subculture.
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250

Hence hard uncrackable anonymity is needed.
 

You complain that Bitcoin isn't completely anonymous, and then your solution is a impossibility.  Anonymity is a scale that is derived from the actions of the user, not an absolute attribute of any currency.  While cash is certainly more anonymous than Bitcoin, even cash in person isn't 'uncrackable anonymity' because you have to do it in person.  Any detective with the resources to do so can determine who you are by interogating your business counter party and/or tracking location data near the location around the time of meeting.

Keep in mind that Bitcoin is a compromise solution to a preexisting condition, and while it's certainly not perfect, I consider it unlikely that any or all of Bitcoin's own shortcomings will prove to be fatal to it's market dominance.  You shouldn't put to much faith into AnonyMint's musings either.  While he can turn a phrase quite well, I have personally put the lie to all of his arguments that I've seen thus far; to the point that he doesn't even like to respond to me at all.  Feel free to research his and my interactions on this forum, and you will learn more than you did from him alone.

I'm not putting too much faith in AnonyMint's arguments(/musings). And I will for sure research more as you said. The reason I started this thread in the first place is that I realized that I was not informed enough (which I thought was ok as I thought there was more time, but now btc isn't play money anymore, but something that has grown all too real faster than I could ever have imagined - I figured it was really time to understand where my play money really have gone, and more importantly where they are going).

I have also not seen any of AnonyMint's arguments (that I agree with) saying how Bitcoin won't come to market dominance, but what got me thinking is the argument that what if Bitcoin does come into market dominance - what then? How will we prevent a backlash against the early adopters?

edit: but having a completelty anonymous way to pay and hold money would make it sooooo much harder for anyone to track...
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010

The other big problem with Bitcoin is that it isn't legal tender, and thus it is taxed on changes in its value unlike legal tender. Thus Bitcoin can NEVER be a non-anonymous currency.

So Bitcoin has very powerful arguments against it. The OP is naive.

In Germany, neither Gold nor Gold 2.0 is taxed (VAT).

http://www.welt.de/finanzen/article120823372/Zahlungen-mit-Bitcoins-sind-umsatzsteuerfrei.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785


Germany is an example of a country that so far has managed to balance it's socialism with strong individual rights in many cases, after the war it has always championed a hard currency (even if it is a hard fiat currency) in addition to having a strongly federal political system as well as having a populace generally more politically aware than most others. However, they have no freedom of speech for neo-nazi groups, and much worse, criticism of Israel is still taboo.


I think your admiration for the German solution to be misplaced.  It's not just that neo-nazi based ideologies or israeli dissent that is verboten.  Any kind of subculture at all is verboten, although (obviously) some are ignored.   Notablely, however, Christian based homeschooling is not ignored; and a ban on home education of any kind remains in effect as the last edict started by Aldolf hitler still in effect.  Put another way; while politics in Germany functionally ignores the dark side of Islam, but puts devout Christians who consider German state schools to be contrary to their faith in the same catagory as neo-nazi hate groups.  One might come to the conclusion that German polticos fear the idology of such (non-state) Christian spreading into a greater percentage of the electorate. 

I probably was too positive to the "German solution". I do not agree that any kind of subculture is verboten as such, in fact I saw much more subculture in Berlin than I have seen in any western European capital ever. Maybe I got lucky, but my impression was that it was less distance from the general populace than elsewhere - though other places in Germany are supposedly less subculture-friendly as far as I've heard.


I highlighted the operative part of my prior post for you.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
The biggest argument against Bitcoin - and all crypto currencies for that matter - is that everyone thinks everyone else is out to rip them off in one way shape or form. It's sad but when you can't trust anyone, how far can it go?

To use Bitcoin trust is unnecessary. Consensus is necessary. As with trading anything, all parties involved must agree with the value of the item being exchanged. Fiat is backed by trust in the issuing authority. Even transactional trust is unnecessary if you use escrow.

At some point though you would have to trust somebody (maybe not in a financial way), at least in order to be able to feel fully at ease with someone (or anyone). Trust is a great issue with the Bitcoin community, but I believe it already has improved and is improving further, so it is not a long-term issue.

I'm not a programmer, so to some extent I have to trust that those who program my client aren't hiding a backdoor.  If you're not part of the US Federal Reserve or related monetary industry, you have to trust that they will continue to accept such paper for taxes and legal debts.  Faith in some group or another is a reasonable expectation.  Bitcoin shines in that it doesn't require faith in any particular institution, nor is would the Bitcoin economy at large be at risk if (for example) the Bitcoin Foundation were to simply close up shop.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
ASIC mining farms. I believe Satoshi intended for BTC to be cpu only

Your belief is in error.  Sataoshi expressed a desire that Bitcoin remain cpu only till the "kinks" were worked out, but he didn't get to decide that issue alone either.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010

Sounds fair. So if we trust the developers on this, then scalability is pretty much solved?

Well, I wouldn't say 'solved' because the greater scalability issue isn't the resident size of the blockchain, but the real time latency and bandwidth requirements of the network.  I don't even know if there is really much that can be done with 'solving' scalability within the main network itself.  I tend to think that external solutions, such as overlay networks (such as Stratum) taking over a majority of small transactions.  There are a number of ways this can be done, all of which are a balance between the trustless security model of the main bitcoin network against speed and cost, that I think will end up competing in any future that Bitcoin assumes more transaction volume than Visa can deal with.
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250
The biggest argument against Bitcoin - and all crypto currencies for that matter - is that everyone thinks everyone else is out to rip them off in one way shape or form. It's sad but when you can't trust anyone, how far can it go?

To use Bitcoin trust is unnecessary. Consensus is necessary. As with trading anything, all parties involved must agree with the value of the item being exchanged. Fiat is backed by trust in the issuing authority. Even transactional trust is unnecessary if you use escrow.

At some point though you would have to trust somebody (maybe not in a financial way), at least in order to be able to feel fully at ease with someone (or anyone). Trust is a great issue with the Bitcoin community, but I believe it already has improved and is improving further, so it is not a long-term issue.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010

Hence hard uncrackable anonymity is needed.
 

You complain that Bitcoin isn't completely anonymous, and then your solution is a impossibility.  Anonymity is a scale that is derived from the actions of the user, not an absolute attribute of any currency.  While cash is certainly more anonymous than Bitcoin, even cash in person isn't 'uncrackable anonymity' because you have to do it in person.  Any detective with the resources to do so can determine who you are by interogating your business counter party and/or tracking location data near the location around the time of meeting.

Keep in mind that Bitcoin is a compromise solution to a preexisting condition, and while it's certainly not perfect, I consider it unlikely that any or all of Bitcoin's own shortcomings will prove to be fatal to it's market dominance.  You shouldn't put to much faith into AnonyMint's musings either.  While he can turn a phrase quite well, I have personally put the lie to all of his arguments that I've seen thus far; to the point that he doesn't even like to respond to me at all.  Feel free to research his and my interactions on this forum, and you will learn more than you did from him alone.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
ASIC mining farms. I believe Satoshi intended for BTC to be cpu only
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250
1. Thats not what a 51% attack is and doesnt let you do that. do research.
2.bitcon isnt centralized, pools are false centralization. ie. if someone pulls some shady stuff, the people 'get out of the water' and they lose the hashrate and peoples faith in them, pool owner then loses their income stream. any other form of centralization is just as much BS. do research.
3.no it doesnt... do research...
3. If this was the case we would have prunning already

As far as I have understood, Gavin and the developers have promised that pruning will be ready "when it is necessary". I have no reason to doubt the developer team, but when is it really necessary to prune, at 1TB? Has anyone come up with a timeline? What proof is there that pruning will be possible when it really is necessary?

I recently inquired about this issue, and the general response was that pruning is already emplimented in the reference codebase, but isn't yet enabled for the offical client.  This is mostly because of concern about what kind of impact widespread pruning would have on the "many copies keeps data safe" stragedy that the blockchain employs.  Some of the developers don't believe that there are enough full clients at the moment, and that enabling pruning would result in a significant drop in the number of compete copies of the blockchain from which new clients could bootstrap.  I'm not a programmer, but it was strongly implied that certain power users with the programming skills to enable this code themselves already do prune.  So when they say that pruning will become available when it's necessary, they kind of mean that they will turn it on when they feel that the burden of running a full client is reducing the number of full clients, and that we are not to that point yet.

Sounds fair. So if we trust the developers on this, then scalability is pretty much solved?
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250

The other big problem with Bitcoin is that it isn't legal tender, and thus it is taxed on changes in its value unlike legal tender. Thus Bitcoin can NEVER be a non-anonymous currency.

So Bitcoin has very powerful arguments against it. The OP is naive.

In Germany, neither Gold nor Gold 2.0 is taxed (VAT).

http://www.welt.de/finanzen/article120823372/Zahlungen-mit-Bitcoins-sind-umsatzsteuerfrei.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785


Germany is an example of a country that so far has managed to balance it's socialism with strong individual rights in many cases, after the war it has always championed a hard currency (even if it is a hard fiat currency) in addition to having a strongly federal political system as well as having a populace generally more politically aware than most others. However, they have no freedom of speech for neo-nazi groups, and much worse, criticism of Israel is still taboo.


I think your admiration for the German solution to be misplaced.  It's not just that neo-nazi based ideologies or israeli dissent that is verboten.  Any kind of subculture at all is verboten, although (obviously) some are ignored.  Notablely, however, Christian based homeschooling is not ignored; and a ban on home education of any kind remains in effect as the last edict started by Aldolf hitler still in effect.  Put another way; while politics in Germany functionally ignores the dark side of Islam, but puts devout Christians who consider German state schools to be contrary to their faith in the same catagory as neo-nazi hate groups.  One might come to the conclusion that German polticos fear the idology of such (non-state) Christian spreading into a greater percentage of the electorate. 

I probably was too positive to the "German solution". I do not agree that any kind of subculture is verboten as such, in fact I saw much more subculture in Berlin than I have seen in any western European capital ever. Maybe I got lucky, but my impression was that it was less distance from the general populace than elsewhere - though other places in Germany are supposedly less subculture-friendly as far as I've heard.

Personally, I don't think having one religion gives one more right to homeschool a child than having another or none. I think obligatory schooling should be verboten. I agree that Germany is not good for homeschooling, but even though many other countries allow it it is not an option for most people, and hence a somewhat, though not entirely, moot point. Germany uses law where other countries use propaganda.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
1. Thats not what a 51% attack is and doesnt let you do that. do research.
2.bitcon isnt centralized, pools are false centralization. ie. if someone pulls some shady stuff, the people 'get out of the water' and they lose the hashrate and peoples faith in them, pool owner then loses their income stream. any other form of centralization is just as much BS. do research.
3.no it doesnt... do research...
3. If this was the case we would have prunning already

As far as I have understood, Gavin and the developers have promised that pruning will be ready "when it is necessary". I have no reason to doubt the developer team, but when is it really necessary to prune, at 1TB? Has anyone come up with a timeline? What proof is there that pruning will be possible when it really is necessary?

I recently inquired about this issue, and the general response was that pruning is already emplimented in the reference codebase, but isn't yet enabled for the offical client.  This is mostly because of concern about what kind of impact widespread pruning would have on the "many copies keeps data safe" stragedy that the blockchain employs.  Some of the developers don't believe that there are enough full clients at the moment, and that enabling pruning would result in a significant drop in the number of compete copies of the blockchain from which new clients could bootstrap.  I'm not a programmer, but it was strongly implied that certain power users with the programming skills to enable this code themselves already do prune.  So when they say that pruning will become available when it's necessary, they kind of mean that they will turn it on when they feel that the burden of running a full client is reducing the number of full clients, and that we are not to that point yet.
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250
This is clearly an issue. The more unequal the spread of wealth the more problems.
Other way around.
Equal spread of wealth = everyone is poor, downtrodden, and live short brutish lives.
The more unequal the spread of wealth the more prosperous a society is for everyone, even the people at the bottom.

No, maybe I was to brief in my wording. I'm not saying wealth has to be spread exactly equally for everything to be perfect, only that grossly unequal societies tend to have problems because of the gross inequality (see my video and countless other evidence). It is definitely possible that a really unequal society can be better for the poor than a more equal society, but not if every other factor is equal between those societies.

Look, complete equality should not be the goal of any society, but ignoring gross wealth inequality as an issue is simply not realistic and not backed by science.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
This is clearly an issue. The more unequal the spread of wealth the more problems.
Other way around.
Equal spread of wealth = everyone is poor, downtrodden, and live short brutish lives.
The more unequal the spread of wealth the more prosperous a society is for everyone, even the people at the bottom.

This is no more true as an absolute than the false meme that an equal spread of wealth leads to prosperity for the greatest number.  The causes of such wealth disparity is also important to consider.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010

The other big problem with Bitcoin is that it isn't legal tender, and thus it is taxed on changes in its value unlike legal tender. Thus Bitcoin can NEVER be a non-anonymous currency.

So Bitcoin has very powerful arguments against it. The OP is naive.

In Germany, neither Gold nor Gold 2.0 is taxed (VAT).

http://www.welt.de/finanzen/article120823372/Zahlungen-mit-Bitcoins-sind-umsatzsteuerfrei.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785


Germany is an example of a country that so far has managed to balance it's socialism with strong individual rights in many cases, after the war it has always championed a hard currency (even if it is a hard fiat currency) in addition to having a strongly federal political system as well as having a populace generally more politically aware than most others. However, they have no freedom of speech for neo-nazi groups, and much worse, criticism of Israel is still taboo.


I think your admiration for the German solution to be misplaced.  It's not just that neo-nazi based ideologies or israeli dissent that is verboten.  Any kind of subculture at all is verboten, although (obviously) some are ignored.  Notablely, however, Christian based homeschooling is not ignored; and a ban on home education of any kind remains in effect as the last edict started by Aldolf hitler still in effect.  Put another way; while politics in Germany functionally ignores the dark side of Islam, but puts devout Christians who consider German state schools to be contrary to their faith in the same catagory as neo-nazi hate groups.  One might come to the conclusion that German polticos fear the idology of such (non-state) Christian spreading into a greater percentage of the electorate. 
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250
1) Volatility. As long as the exchange rate fluctuates wildly, BTC as a currency is highly unlikely to become mainstream. However, I think this is a short-term problem, as more acceptance/use of BTC will lead to less volatility, or more importantly, less tying the value of BTC to the dollar.

This was a problem in the US when the gold standard apparently led to panics that created an unstable economy and thus hardship for many. Savings accounts and insurances could help solve this though, it is a matter of culture, not Bitcoin or any restricted-supply currency in particular.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
This is clearly an issue. The more unequal the spread of wealth the more problems.
Other way around.
Equal spread of wealth = everyone is poor, downtrodden, and live short brutish lives.
The more unequal the spread of wealth the more prosperous a society is for everyone, even the people at the bottom.
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250

The other big problem with Bitcoin is that it isn't legal tender, and thus it is taxed on changes in its value unlike legal tender. Thus Bitcoin can NEVER be a non-anonymous currency.

So Bitcoin has very powerful arguments against it. The OP is naive.

In Germany, neither Gold nor Gold 2.0 is taxed (VAT).

http://www.welt.de/finanzen/article120823372/Zahlungen-mit-Bitcoins-sind-umsatzsteuerfrei.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785


Germany is an example of a country that so far has managed to balance it's socialism with strong individual rights in many cases, after the war it has always championed a hard currency (even if it is a hard fiat currency) in addition to having a strongly federal political system as well as having a populace generally more politically aware than most others. However, they have no freedom of speech for neo-nazi groups, and much worse, criticism of Israel is still taboo.

I think many of Germany's good policies are remnants of guilt after the second world war and memories of the DDR. These things will eventually fade.
sr. member
Activity: 255
Merit: 250
Too few people exist on the planet that would use Bitcoin simply for altruistic reasons.

The altruism/egoism debate is a sidetrack. It is impossible to be completely altruistic or completely egotistical.
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