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Topic: What I've learned so far as a gambler - page 3. (Read 2698 times)

hero member
Activity: 1218
Merit: 556
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
January 06, 2024, 11:34:58 AM
What I have learnt so far in gambling is never to be greedy. Sometimes greedyness in gambling is the reason behind many loses. Whenever you play a game and almost Al the games has played down, there is a need to cashout the possible ones Instead of waiting patiently to win all. I believe most people where oppotuned to win big but choose to be greedy in other to win everything dey loose.
I have learnt also that for you to win sometimes you need to choose few games not too much accumulated games, because over accumulated games gives you less privilege to win rather chose few games and bigoney for stake.
Avoiding greed is something that every gambler should remember, especially those who have won. That greed will become great when they win; if they cannot, they will be controlled by greed and continue gambling without any self-control. That will cause gamblers to experience loss after loss, which could become more and more if they don't immediately realize that what they have done is wrong. They will only lose their money in gambling without being able to win again, so we must avoid this by maintaining the self-control we have practised. We gamble to have fun and we shouldn't gamble excessively because that will only result in more losses. If we can win, we must immediately end the gambling game and leave the casino to save ourselves from losses that might be bigger than the winnings we have obtained.
Everyone's been there, right? You're winning streak makes you king of the world.  I've learnt the hard way that gambling requires discipline.

Yes, I like fun. Fluttering is fun. When you chase losses, things change. What was once "fun" becomes a downward spiral of terrible choices. I constantly tell gamblers, "Winning is terrific, but understanding when to quit? The true skill is there." Kill your greed and you've won half the battle.

Gamble for fun, excitement, and socializing. When it stops being entertaining, bow and leave. Remember that casinos are monuments to the overly ambitious, not winners. Maintain your wits, pocketbook, and humor. Isnt laughter the best way to stay sane in a world of rolling dice?
hero member
Activity: 2912
Merit: 556
January 06, 2024, 11:14:45 AM
~snip~
That's right! As one wise man once said, smart people learn from their mistakes, but really smart ones learn from the mistakes of others. Can we learn from the mistakes of others all the time? No, it's impossible. We are not superhuman beings, we are just humans. And mostly we learn from our own mistakes, but in some cases, and gambling addiction is one of them, we simply can't afford the hard way of learning.
Yes, that won't be possible if we always learn from other people's experiences and mistakes. But we will find mistakes other people make intentionally or unintentionally, and that's where we learn from them. By learning from their experiences and the mistakes they make, we can develop our abilities and also try to find solutions if we experience the incident so that we can use the solutions to improve the situation. We can only continue to try to learn to be better, and in this forum, we can also learn from everything shared by members in this forum.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2112
I stand with Ukraine.
January 06, 2024, 09:29:26 AM
~snip~
It's not rare that gambling addicts have more of the "experience" than gambling regulars. What thye need is just sit and calculate how much they've lost over the years. And I'm not taking only about the money, but time also.
You are right. Gambling addicts often have more experience than other gamblers. That's because they gamble more often, whether they win or lose, but it's the experience they gain. And if we can learn from gambling addicts, we can avoid what we should avoid so that we don't become addicted to gambling too. We are responsible for ourselves, so we must be able to gamble moderately and avoid losing. That's all, even though in reality it will be different. And it is true that we lose not only money but also valuable time that we should be able to do other things, but instead, we use it for gambling.

That's right! As one wise man once said, smart people learn from their mistakes, but really smart ones learn from the mistakes of others. Can we learn from the mistakes of others all the time? No, it's impossible. We are not superhuman beings, we are just humans. And mostly we learn from our own mistakes, but in some cases, and gambling addiction is one of them, we simply can't afford the hard way of learning.
member
Activity: 322
Merit: 26
Be Happy ☺️
January 06, 2024, 07:49:30 AM

This thing happened to me, got lucky my $20 becomes $200 then ended up to $40. I know if I continue to risk it, it's either I go home double my money or ended up nothing. Grin

Believe it sometimes such determination pays off at the end of the day. In gambling, there are good days and bad days so if you identify that it is going good for you then why run away too early when you have not started losing. I have of stories of gamblers offline who kept winning in visuals soccer, he won many times than he lost and that made him to be in profit. However, he didn't increase his staking power, he kept it steady and winning which further gave him that relaxed mind and confidence to select the right games to gamble on.


Yep if you find the right game you are made for then that will be a game changer for you. You should play that type of game you have experience. Experience gives us surely win. That is more profitable for us. For that reason we must find out the game we have experience. All of the things we learn as a gambler it's responsibility that increase a lot. It teach us to be responsible in real life and gambling life.
hero member
Activity: 2856
Merit: 541
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
January 06, 2024, 05:55:35 AM
What I have learnt so far in gambling is never to be greedy. Sometimes greedyness in gambling is the reason behind many loses. Whenever you play a game and almost Al the games has played down, there is a need to cashout the possible ones Instead of waiting patiently to win all. I believe most people where oppotuned to win big but choose to be greedy in other to win everything dey loose.
I have learnt also that for you to win sometimes you need to choose few games not too much accumulated games, because over accumulated games gives you less privilege to win rather chose few games and bigoney for stake.
Avoiding greed is something that every gambler should remember, especially those who have won. That greed will become great when they win; if they cannot, they will be controlled by greed and continue gambling without any self-control. That will cause gamblers to experience loss after loss, which could become more and more if they don't immediately realize that what they have done is wrong. They will only lose their money in gambling without being able to win again, so we must avoid this by maintaining the self-control we have practised. We gamble to have fun and we shouldn't gamble excessively because that will only result in more losses. If we can win, we must immediately end the gambling game and leave the casino to save ourselves from losses that might be bigger than the winnings we have obtained.
full member
Activity: 280
Merit: 205
The great city of God 🔥
January 05, 2024, 09:18:58 PM
What I have learnt so far in gambling is never to be greedy. Sometimes greedyness in gambling is the reason behind many loses. Whenever you play a game and almost Al the games has played down, there is a need to cashout the possible ones Instead of waiting patiently to win all. I believe most people where oppotuned to win big but choose to be greedy in other to win everything dey loose.
I have learnt also that for you to win sometimes you need to choose few games not too much accumulated games, because over accumulated games gives you less privilege to win rather chose few games and bigoney for stake.
legendary
Activity: 2394
Merit: 1848
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
January 02, 2024, 08:51:59 AM
~snip
The concept of discipline is so hard to grasp because in order to become discipline you need to be disciplined. Such a twisted word and hard to understand but it is what it is. Being discipline will teach you when to exit and take the money with you from gambling. Having a Target in your mind or thinking about winning money from gambling it's not a bad thing but it does push you to take emotional decisions. Maybe a healthy amount of profit from gambling is not that bad.
I mean, if you think it on the positive side, when you reach your target then you should exit gambling for that day. Because you have achieved your target already.
On the other hand however, if you are on a losing streak and you are not making any money, then having a target could be stressful and can lead you to more losses if you keep on chasing your target.
Everything is good until you use it for a bad purpose. It will be the same thing for this one too. If you are losing then take the L and call it a day. And if you are winning and you have reached your target, exit the gambling. I think this is what professional and experience gamblers do.

Well, we all know how difficult it is to play as a person who is and is aware that the game can take us to the most difficult limits as human beings, there are no tests at all, in managing money, in managing things. meoinces and of course, the management of emotions is difficult to control in fact what makes us go wrong is that we cannot handle those impulses that tell us that we can do it, or worse still when we are in a very bad Streak and we continue betting very Hard thinking that the next thing we are going to win, is something like a martingale where it can make us permanently lose our money, those are things that we Cannot allow ourselves to do , because it is something very stupid, that's why we talk more about it autocnotorl and some techniques that we have for that to Happen , self-control cannot be Achieved on its own in such an easy way , at least you have to take some Precautions such as controlling the time that you can crawl in the path and making wise decisions in Game.

When we bring all these things to light, it reminds us that we as humans will Always have a lot of problems with decisions and doing the right thing , we are not just robots who make quick decisions over and above any material value or so on, which In casinos and in those games it is very necessary to do, for this reason we are like playing correctly in our decisions we know very well that when there is a bad streak, we should not stop it , something like in rading , not having hope , if you are lost and You know that the safest thing is that you will continue losing , because you have to stop , it doesn't matter if you lose , there will be another Opportunity to follow , for this reason you must do things well to avoid getting out that way, it's not just It is recommended to follow and apply reckless strategies such as martingala, except when there is little Balance , it is what can lead us to ruin in a Casino.
sr. member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 366
January 01, 2024, 01:06:51 PM
~snip
The concept of discipline is so hard to grasp because in order to become discipline you need to be disciplined. Such a twisted word and hard to understand but it is what it is. Being discipline will teach you when to exit and take the money with you from gambling. Having a Target in your mind or thinking about winning money from gambling it's not a bad thing but it does push you to take emotional decisions. Maybe a healthy amount of profit from gambling is not that bad.
I mean, if you think it on the positive side, when you reach your target then you should exit gambling for that day. Because you have achieved your target already.
On the other hand however, if you are on a losing streak and you are not making any money, then having a target could be stressful and can lead you to more losses if you keep on chasing your target.
Everything is good until you use it for a bad purpose. It will be the same thing for this one too. If you are losing then take the L and call it a day. And if you are winning and you have reached your target, exit the gambling. I think this is what professional and experience gamblers do.
legendary
Activity: 2954
Merit: 1050
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
December 31, 2023, 07:17:14 PM
Such are the strategies that a gambler should use when he is supposed to win, because what other winners do is, instead of saving what they win, they also become greedy, so it often happens that in the end, they don't take home any winnings instead. that there is.

So it is very important for gamblers like us to have control and limits on gambling to do these things. It's not because we've won a few times that we feel like we're going to lose the house edge; it shouldn't be like that. Let's do the right thing by gambling as gamblers in this field.
Not all the gamblers are the same. And when money is involved, each and every gambler one time in their life have thought of winning more money through gambling. It's an urge that a human mind can't control. Despite following all the strategies that you come up with, you will eventually make emotional decisions once in a lifetime. So it's better not to think too much about it. If we make mistakes and can identify it, we can eventually learn from it.

But the thing that is needed in order to follow a strategy is discipline. It does not come overnight. It takes patience hard work and dedication. I'm really doing that with put us on the right track. Gambling is for fun. So let's just enjoy it. But make sure to follow a strategy to be in the limit. Keep on doing the same thing over and over again and it becomes a habit.

It take time to develop that kind of patience, you need to make sure that in each gambling session you play there's learning from every outcome whether you win or not better to take that as basis to avoid making any mistake again or to duplicate if you are in the winning side, trying to repeat the outcome without pressuring yourself to keep that limitation inside you.

If you lose, make sure to move forward and stop dwelling with your regrets, it won't help you but instead it will add more pressure becuase you will try to recover and once that emotion install inside you, the chance of being aggressive and you may lose more.
hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 509
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
December 31, 2023, 07:08:43 PM
Doubling your capital is a massive win to me and the amount is big enough for me to apply a very conservative approach. That being said, if I win $200 as profit from $200 capital, I will withdraw 90% of the funds leaving only 10% in my gambling account. From experience, after a major win comes a time when losses become regular.

Many people have the tendency of increasing their stakes when they win big and this make many of them lose the money they won very fast. It is one thing to win and another to actually cash out the winning, this is where the greed level of a gambler is truly tested. Therefore, I made it a habit to always withdraw my money anytime and win and chase them with just 10% of the profits. This way, I will not feel too bad if I lose it. Some very conservative gamblers will even go lower than 10% to ensure they don't lose their winning.
You are thinking too much about winnings and money. Gambling is only for entertainment and you should keep it that way. In order to stop losing too much of your money, you should create a strategy in which every time you place a bet, the amount should be similar. Don't go up, don't go down.
If you have a strict budget and a strict amount that you can use on each bet, it will ensure a long gambling session and you will not run out of money. Also set a rule for gambling certain amount of time with certain amount of games. Do not take gambling as a way of earning. It will lead to emotional decisions and you will lose more than you win.

Taking gambling as a way of earning only leads us to a detrimental lane in our gambling journey. It's crucial to have a strategy that circulates emotional control. We all are aware of the low possibility of winning often in gambling, no need to have big hopes that gambling would offer us winning. What is most necessary is that we participate in gambling and enjoy ourselves for the time being, get a rest, and try again some other times. Withdrawing our funds immediately after winning in gambling could be helpful for the gambler, as he'll spend the money on some other bills and enjoy with family, instead of gambling them away. The strategy of increasing our wager after winning, is not advisable, as it only puts the gambler in a position where he'd lose all the winnings. Endangering his gambling journey, the gambler can get bothered about it and think for long over the lost money. It could also lead to chasing losses. Some would want to earn more in the process and would think that if they don't gamble again or move away their next winning won't get to them.

Winning also moves lots of people to gamble more thereby making mistakes due to not having a settled mind. However, to stay clear from the numerous thoughts of money while gambling, it's important the gambler only focus on the joy he could get in gambling. His strategies should revolve around ways to learn, and get creative in real life. Other than investing all our thoughts in making money through gambling. The gambling should work dearly on his emotions and not get pissed off if because of his gambling results. These things help a gamblers to have strong control over any financial problem that hits them in life. Gambling has a strong connection to our thoughts and emotions, the same way our daily business does to all business people. Hence when gambling is like a practicing ground for the real financial challenges we see each day, we'd be able to control our emotions and make clear decisions about our next move.
legendary
Activity: 2394
Merit: 1848
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
December 31, 2023, 06:32:36 PM
Such are the strategies that a gambler should use when he is supposed to win, because what other winners do is, instead of saving what they win, they also become greedy, so it often happens that in the end, they don't take home any winnings instead. that there is.

So it is very important for gamblers like us to have control and limits on gambling to do these things. It's not because we've won a few times that we feel like we're going to lose the house edge; it shouldn't be like that. Let's do the right thing by gambling as gamblers in this field.
Not all the gamblers are the same. And when money is involved, each and every gambler one time in their life have thought of winning more money through gambling. It's an urge that a human mind can't control. Despite following all the strategies that you come up with, you will eventually make emotional decisions once in a lifetime. So it's better not to think too much about it. If we make mistakes and can identify it, we can eventually learn from it.

But the thing that is needed in order to follow a strategy is discipline. It does not come overnight. It takes patience hard work and dedication. I'm really doing that with put us on the right track. Gambling is for fun. So let's just enjoy it. But make sure to follow a strategy to be in the limit. Keep on doing the same thing over and over again and it becomes a habit.

You are right, you see that playing a lot in a casino gives you a lot of Experience , especially in sports betting, if you make profits and at the same time there is a growth in knowledge because you have been there all your life and you work every day to Improve them, in this order of ideas we are people who can accept the fact that everything can be done well if we Ourselves are doing the Right thing , but not in a casino, I believe that in a casino to be successful you have to win money, no On the other hand, those people who say that they are successful only because they do not fall into addiction are telling lies to themselves and that is something that should not be, a good player will always do the right thing because they can generate a lot of money, and this has to to do a lot with discipline, a disciplined player will always have good results, just as he can have any type of thing in any activity that is undertaken , not necessarily in the game he has to be Disciplined , in everything that the person proposes.

Some have a lot of knowledge about games and sports betting and that Knowledge is very volatile because at any time it can go to waste, that's why money here in the casino is everything , what you must learn as a player is the basics, the Or we should not stop learning , which is, to have enough money ready to lose, if it is more money it is lost, not to put more money or make deposits , much less to look for money that has already been lost or to have some type of revenge against the Casino , because it is very obvious that you will lose the money you have there , another thing is that the money that you are willing to lose if you win something , because it is good to buy and not continue when you have a decent profit, and it The smarter thing is to withdraw and enjoy that money, many players risk that money and lose it all, then they lose control and risk more money and lose it making the jack superior.
hero member
Activity: 2912
Merit: 556
December 30, 2023, 11:52:05 AM
~snip~
It's not rare that gambling addicts have more of the "experience" than gambling regulars. What thye need is just sit and calculate how much they've lost over the years. And I'm not taking only about the money, but time also.
You are right. Gambling addicts often have more experience than other gamblers. That's because they gamble more often, whether they win or lose, but it's the experience they gain. And if we can learn from gambling addicts, we can avoid what we should avoid so that we don't become addicted to gambling too. We are responsible for ourselves, so we must be able to gamble moderately and avoid losing. That's all, even though in reality it will be different. And it is true that we lose not only money but also valuable time that we should be able to do other things, but instead, we use it for gambling.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2112
I stand with Ukraine.
December 30, 2023, 06:44:08 AM
~
Indeed, we don't need to force our will to chase win, but the problem is that when they have won, most gamblers want an even bigger win. This makes them continue to gamble and look like they are chasing their winnings, and many of them do this unconsciously because of that desire. They want to get even bigger wins, so they intend to continue gambling even though they have to deposit more money. But that won't happen to professional gamblers because they don't want to do that. They already know that if they chase their winnings, it is difficult, and it could lead to more losses. They can make good decisions because they have more experience than most gamblers.

It's not rare that gambling addicts have more of the "experience" than gambling regulars. What thye need is just sit and calculate how much they've lost over the years. And I'm not taking only about the money, but time also.

~

The gambler who like to make the huge money in the gambling should not allow their emotions in the game.This was the biggest hidden strategy of the successful gamblers,they never get into depression after the loss.They will consider it as the game learning opportunity,So use the money to learn the game.Many gamblers learn more knowledge from the gambling by using the real money,they won’t complain about the gambling site after the loss.Because they know it’s not the end of the game,he will play many games in the gambling in the future.So this game is just an experience for them.Such gambler will arrange more money to play in the future game,because if the gamblers play with more capital will allow them to make more money in the future game.

No, don't do that. Gambling is not the universe where the more money you plant in the soil, the bigger some money tree you will get. It doesn't work like that.
sr. member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 366
December 29, 2023, 12:45:59 PM
Such are the strategies that a gambler should use when he is supposed to win, because what other winners do is, instead of saving what they win, they also become greedy, so it often happens that in the end, they don't take home any winnings instead. that there is.

So it is very important for gamblers like us to have control and limits on gambling to do these things. It's not because we've won a few times that we feel like we're going to lose the house edge; it shouldn't be like that. Let's do the right thing by gambling as gamblers in this field.
Not all the gamblers are the same. And when money is involved, each and every gambler one time in their life have thought of winning more money through gambling. It's an urge that a human mind can't control. Despite following all the strategies that you come up with, you will eventually make emotional decisions once in a lifetime. So it's better not to think too much about it. If we make mistakes and can identify it, we can eventually learn from it.

But the thing that is needed in order to follow a strategy is discipline. It does not come overnight. It takes patience hard work and dedication. I'm really doing that with put us on the right track. Gambling is for fun. So let's just enjoy it. But make sure to follow a strategy to be in the limit. Keep on doing the same thing over and over again and it becomes a habit.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 507
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
December 29, 2023, 09:10:10 AM
Good question as a gambler I've learned alot of stuff one is that there's no short cut in making cash. Gambling is something that you will do that there must be something you learned. Because making mistakes ain't bad but not learning from it is indeed bad. Because we all have face alot of traumatic moment in gambling. Like back then when I was a reckless gambler I was only gambling for making quick profit not thinking about the fun in it.
I usually love to stake alot with high percentage so that I can get something big in return too, but at the end I will end up losing all my cash staked. So I noticed that my reckless gambling and my mindset of wanted to make alot fast from gambling will do Me no good. So now I'm learning and training my self to become a responsible gambler
That's right, there is no quick way to make a lot of money, even if gambling can make a lot of money quickly, who knows how many hundreds or maybe thousands of people already have wealth by gambling. because if this really happened of course people would gamble every day without having to work hard, but unfortunately this all turns around, existing gambling only makes us suffer losses, and I myself have also experienced this, I have learned many things, one of them is responsibility and discipline. Irresponsible or undisciplined gambling can destroy a person's life, including their future if they cannot stop their gambling addiction.
That's it, reckless gambling will only bring misery to ourselves and with the wrong mindset it can make us make gambling a priority in life, even though this is wrong, because by prioritizing gambling we will certainly get into trouble, especially financially.
hero member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 520
Cashback 15%
December 28, 2023, 07:55:37 PM
Good question as a gambler I've learned alot of stuff one is that there's no short cut in making cash. Gambling is something that you will do that there must be something you learned. Because making mistakes ain't bad but not learning from it is indeed bad. Because we all have face alot of traumatic moment in gambling. Like back then when I was a reckless gambler I was only gambling for making quick profit not thinking about the fun in it.
I usually love to stake alot with high percentage so that I can get something big in return too, but at the end I will end up losing all my cash staked. So I noticed that my reckless gambling and my mindset of wanted to make alot fast from gambling will do Me no good. So now I'm learning and training my self to become a responsible gambler

I guress fun isn't necessarily something one thinks about, but something that one can feel or should feel if it is an enjoyable activity. But the problem is that gambling does have the risk of losing it all and that's kind of detrimental to the whole thing as money eventually dominates whether we enjoyed a session or not. I can't recall whether I was ever super happy after losing my bankroll. Probably not. Which means it comes down to whether or not we won overall or not.
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 154
December 28, 2023, 07:51:41 PM
Good question as a gambler I've learned alot of stuff one is that there's no short cut in making cash. Gambling is something that you will do that there must be something you learned. Because making mistakes ain't bad but not learning from it is indeed bad. Because we all have face alot of traumatic moment in gambling. Like back then when I was a reckless gambler I was only gambling for making quick profit not thinking about the fun in it.
I usually love to stake alot with high percentage so that I can get something big in return too, but at the end I will end up losing all my cash staked. So I noticed that my reckless gambling and my mindset of wanted to make alot fast from gambling will do Me no good. So now I'm learning and training my self to become a responsible gambler
full member
Activity: 280
Merit: 205
The great city of God 🔥
December 28, 2023, 07:39:27 PM
If you walk into a casino with $200 and you start playing with that $200 and you win $200, get the hell out, you simply just doubled your money, take your goddamn leave, what do you think you wanna do? Win a million dollars? You will go home empty handed.

Though I am not a good gambler or probably don't often play, but each time I do and make my profit imidiately i will move because staying thee will still give me the impression of playing. which in turn make me spend both my initial money and also the profit. There was a day I sold my phone and wanted to travel though I had two I have to sell one because I had no money I decided to go and multiply the money in a casino Hall. Fortunately I made profit but I was led by greed to make more money but toy greatest suprise I spent the whole money I sold from the phone and I was left with no choice to go him without phone or money and still the journey was fruitless. And I can't travel without money. So I learnt a great lesson that very day.
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 3002
December 28, 2023, 07:29:51 PM
If you walk into a casino with $200 and you start playing with that $200 and you win $200, get the hell out, you simply just doubled your money, take your goddamn leave, what do you think you wanna do? Win a million dollars? You will go home empty handed.

The next thing that rings in your ear is you can still win another or more, that's the devil whipsering, the art of gambling is knowing when to stop.

The only game where you have some power is in Poker, not the online one, this is the best game in casinos, as making profits off of bad players is possible.

As for Other games, You are at the mercy of the house.

No one actually visits the casino to have fun, you gotta trick the mind, I like to think of it has a fun night out and I am going to spend a few hundred dollars and have a good time and if I win it's a bonus, like I've said, you gotta trick the mind.

Always remember this, you are there to win a game where its statistically impossible to win at, it's not impossible to not understand this about gambling, a wise man once said, "if you want to make money with gambling, own a casino".

I can't say that I agree with these philosophies really at all.  Say I walk in to a Casino with $200, and then double my money, if anything I would be the $200 won, and pocket the other 200.  If I end up losing it, then at least I walk away with what I came with.  However if I showed up with $200, than I expect to lose it all, so I would end up playing it to try and win more.  Just doubling my money, at that amount, is not enough to make me want to leave.
sr. member
Activity: 896
Merit: 279
December 28, 2023, 07:22:12 PM
...the art of gambling is knowing when to stop.

This is the major challenge gamblers are facing, knowing when to stop is like an antidote for loses and getting wrecked, addiction and lot of other downsides of gambling. Imagine gambling without control, the adverse effect will be devastating, sadly, this is what a sginificant percentage of gamblers are currently going through without even knowing that the problem is cause by a dysfunction of not knwoing when to stop or call it quit in the habit.

Learn and practice a disciplined trait of signing out when it is ideal and know what the ideal point is before you get started.
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