Topic: What to do about people who believe that stealing is ok - page 2. (Read 1105 times)

What class? You have no class. You are a fraud that is not fit to teach people how to use the fryer at McDonalds. What you advocate for IS about the USSR, because history shows that is inevitably what your ideology results in. You can pretend it is "different this time" over and over again at the cost of millions of lives, but that doesn't change the facts. You talk about how you don't deserve all the material wealth you have and don't deserve, but you don't give it away now do you? You talk about how you know more about poverty than the impoverished from the position of your pampered lifestyle, wagging your finger at people who have actually lived that experience. You preach to people who have suffered under Communism and Socialism that they "just don't get it" as you benefit from living in a Western capitalist society. You have no morals. You have no principles. You have no logos. You have no knowledge. All you have is bullshit, narcissism, and a savior complex.

I thought I got through to you.  I guess not.

I repeat.  There is no theft under the capitalist division of labor.  The free market is the most efficient system to self-correct any price dislocations (when workers are underpaid or overpaid).  Market participants are willingly participating to exchange goods and services.

If you happen to use the inefficiencies of the free market to your advantage, all the power to you.  
You just use the opportunity available to all.  You are not stealing from anyone.

When a lioness sees a gazelle she will not wait for other lionesses to come around, she will go for the kill.

Capitalism best resembles nature.  Are people being taken advantage of?  Of course.  No question about it.  
There are many overpriced products/services being bought/sold as we speak.  Calling it theft is disingenuous.

Your conclusion implies that you believe stealing is ok because it always happens.  You excuse capitalist theft because the victims of said theft have a possibility of avoiding it someday.


and you have jumped to that conclusion after observing the behavior of humans in different types of slave systems.  You haven't observed the prevailing mentality in any system where freedom is the default for comparison, nor have you contemplated the possibilities of a such hypothetical system.  Everything seems impossible until it happens for the first time.  

Now you are catching on. Capitalism provides you with an opportunity to become a free man. I am not saying it is easy.  I was probably an exception, skipped a generation or two, but what I am saying is that it is possible.

Workers' slave mentality persists no matter the system.  You can change the system but you cannot change that slave mentality.

You're coming to this conclusion based on solely on transitions from one degree of slavery to another.  Slaves did not have freedom after slavery.  Many had the opportunity to leave their plantation and become sharecroppers where they would have no rights and earn less than the sum of what they were provided as slaves.  Many would starve and suffer even more under those conditions.  The descendants of slaves just got freedom of movement in recent decades and are still struggling for equal rights today.    Capitalism is only marginally better.  Some of systems you call communism were also essentially slavery for the masses by the government.

When you are homeless, anyone who eats every day is not poor.
When you are working for $20/hr, homeless people are poor.
When you are making $100/hr, people who make $20/hr are poor.
When you are financially independent, people who work are poor.

Today, I am financially independent, I have retired at 52 a few years back.  To me people who are not financially independent, have to work to make a living, are slaves to the system and are poor.   That was not the case 35 years ago when I was homeless.

My world view might be different from 90% of the population but it is based on many things, mostly on what I experienced in my life.

Most people keep working until they die, even when they become financially independent.  Many slaves did not leave their masters even after they were emancipated.  Many 'wage' workers will continue to be 'wage' workers all their lives, giving them money, or changing the system, or killing all the rich people will not change them, they will still want to work as 'wage' workers.  That is just how people are.

If this was not the case, you would never see older 'wage' workers.

I'm really confused because you definition of poor seems to be changing within every post.  What is your definition of poor?  You said poor people want to stay poor then you said you know what poor people want because you were poor, then you said know nothing about being poor yet somehow will die poor and then you said my children and grandchildren (who don't exist) will die poor and all of this with no explanation.   

It seems like you are just ranting out of anger and throwing words at the keyboard.  Like, do you really think a lazy person would go through all this trouble to try and explain poverty to people who clearly don't give a damn about what happens to poor people in this current system?  I may be an ineffective teacher but definitely not a lazy one. TECSHARE has been in my class for a few years and still thinks its about the USSR. 

My assertion was not even baseless.  My assertion was based on your statement that poor people "want to stay poor".  What evidence do you have of that?  I've worked with thousands of adolescents and I've never met a single one who wanted to stay poor.  This is why I have the privilege of a more diverse perspective.   I've worked in poor schools and rich schools and had the opportunity to see the differences first hand and experience how poverty affects education.

As for tecshare...Just because I haven't personally been poor doesn't mean I haven't learned about the experience by accompanying poor children in their academic journey.  I've also done service and work in homeless shelters, soup kitchens and NGOs in Brazil, Peru, Kenya and Cambodia.

With all that said, research is more valuable than experience in the context of a generalized discussion.  Experiences can be anecdotal and due to chance.  I have both so I also have the ability to recognize when the mechanisms I've learned about through research are being experienced by people in front of me.   I've used my privilege to work to bring people up. 

So here I am talking about mechanisms backed by trends in data and research going against one person who thinks the fact that they ate out of a dumpster gives them the authority to refute entire bodies of research on poverty and psychology. 

and another person who thinks any criticism of capitalism is an endorsement of the soviet system because they think there are literally only two ways to setup a society

Sorry, I have mistaken you for a strict Bible follower. I read too much into our previous exchanges on religion.  I assumed you still follow your childhood indoctrination.  For that, I apologize.

Proverbs 13:24 - "Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

Where did you see me write about the beating?
I confess that English is not my first language but I think i was very clear in my post.
I am not talking about beatings, but about the instruments of the rule of law and legal responses to breaches of the law.
Legal responses can be counseling, anger control courses, correctional homes and up to jail time.
BTW, behavioral correction with children refers to additional education and work with children, namely by professional persons, psychologists and educators.
I hope everything is clear now.

I don't see him advocating beating anywhere in his statement... I think you need to calm down just a bit.

Hey look Ma, we've got Mr. Earnshaw from Wuthering Heights here.

Beating anyone is not moral you little freak.

Such behavior is related to the character and morale of each person.
Due to different circumstances, problems in the family or in society, or bad influences from friends, many people never get a moral compass for life and they don't really learn to differentiate between good and evil.
Sometimes it is possible to make behavioral correction with children, but with adults only punitive measures can help.

The key thing here is that we need to produce more humans.

Space is quite large and if we want to spread humanity throughout the cosmos we need more than what we have here on Earth right now. We need to come up with pro-population strategies. We need to encourage a lot more sex.

For every Ocean Builders home that we create, the coral garden that goes along with it will start soaking up CO2. Coral reefs make up 90% of the world's ecosystems.

There is over three times as much hurricane free ocean space than there is habitable land in the world. This means that if we fill the ocean with these coral building homes will be soaking up CO2 at such a high rate that we will need more humans to produce CO2 so that the plants will be able to survive.

If you want lower birth rates you want all the plants on the world to die. How dare you!

I don't understand why some people are believe that stealing is ok. Those are not learn how to do a good manners. People is stealing because of life is so poor but not that the reason they can find a job so that they have money for there family.
Maybe try to put them on jail so that they learn that stealing is not good.

You just don't get it. He in his self proclaimed privileged life is educated and knows far more about poverty than any homeless person! You just need re-education until you see it his way. Trust him, he knows best from his position of privilege over and over telling people who have suffered under poverty, socialism, and communism personally. All these people who have lived his ideological reality know nothing and they simply need to imagine everyone getting a free pony harder and all the world's problems will be solved. He is enlightened and he will lead poor plebeians like you in the revolt against the evil wealth hoarding kulaks. Once the productive class is destroyed we will all live in equality!

Now you really pissed me off. You motherfucker, you know nothing about being poor and eating from the dumpsters.  I was fucking homeless, ate from the dumpsters, and slept in public parks.  You little twit.  That is who you are, you know shit and you think you can save the world with your bullshit propaganda which does nothing but instills hope in other lazy, criminal minds.

So shut the fuck up with your bullshit.

You know shit, are lazy as fuck and are looking for an easy way out, you will die poor, so will your children and grandchildren.

You didn't actually refute my arguments. You just essentially said no, you are wrong, and repeated your premise. Once again you are making assumptions and projections that are by far not assured. Also if you are wrong the results have been shown throughout history in the form of millions dead. History shows what you advocate for ends in horrible genocidal failure. Just because it works for some select small groups for short periods in no way means it will translate successfully scaled up, and the historical evidence shows it in fact will end in failure. Keep dreaming Captain Postmodern. Leave the policy decisions to people who make choices based on logos, not ethos.

I think the problem in bold is that you have a lack of knowledge of the poor.  You think they want to be poor which indicates you simply don't know any poor people.  You also seem to think the poor have a lot more than they do have.  You're out of touch with the poor and I'm out of touch with how you could think human nature is to want to stay poor.

Rich is a relative term.  Only evil people want to be billionaires and when I'm attacking billionaires, I'm not referring to rich people like everyone on this board.  I'd guess most of the posters on this board are in the top 1% and the ones who aren't are definitely in the top 5% so generally, every discussion here has a perspective that is blind to 95% of the people on the planet.   

Everyone wants security, clean water, shelter, and food.  Everyone wants leisure time.   Everyone wants freedom.   I define rich as people who never have to worry about any of these things which is what I mean by people like us on this board.  I'm pretty certain no one here is a billionaire but no one who is actually poor has time for this type of discussion either.   You're so rich and so surrounded by wealth that you think poor people are also rich.

This is all I'm about.  We agree on this and maybe just disagree on what the conditions are that allow people to become successful.  I think my background in education and academia gives me more of a clear picture of the road to success because I have seen it in many different areas and been able to compare and contrast how people from different situations have different experiences in terms of education and lack of education.

It is completely based on reality.   You are only using basic intuition and preconceived ideas about how things worked and ignoring data and research that sometimes provides counterintuitive results.  

I understand how one can start off thinking that people will reproduce infinitely but there is a mountain of research and real-world evidence that shows the more education women have, the less they reproduce.  Nations with higher human devleopment have lower birth rates and many of the highest, most socialized nations with large safety nets and welfare actually have birth rates below replacement.  This is because women who have more education end up with physical autonomy and the ability to afford contraception, birth control and pursuit of professional careers.  They end up delaying motherhood and end up with only a few years of fertility by the time they are settled.  

https://www.economist.com/international/2019/02/02/thanks-to-education-global-fertility-could-fall-faster-than-expected

Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Iceland are all under 2 children per woman.  Certainly not infinite reproduction despite universal access to education, healthcare, shelter and food.  Not only do these countries still function, but they are all among the most well-off in the world.  This is not communism at all and its definitely not the crap you call communism. 

Meanwhile look at all the countries with the high rates of births and they are all countries with high levels of poverty, poor education, and poor healthcare.  The correlation and causation are undeniable.




 

You are forgetting that many educated people do not want to be rich (yourself included), they want to be workers (and stay poor) all their lives.

How are you going to pull them out of poverty?

BTW, you cannot educate people who do not want to be educated.  The desire to change their lives has to come from within.

The best you can do is create conditions where poor people who want to succeed can become successful.

I hope you realize that the solution to this inequality problem is multifaceted, not as simple as the (superficial) solution proposed by Marx and Engels.

The system that best fits our human nature is capitalism.  Whether you like it or not.

PS. One area where I think capitalism has to be curbed is the environmental protection as the damage in many cases is irreversible and no money in the world can fix that damage.  For example, the packaging of consumer products has to be changed to eliminate plastic waste, water, air pollution needs to be reduced, emission standards have to improve.  This is going to be a big issue going forward in the coming decades as populations of cities swell, and natural habitats are destroyed. I don't think the free market will regulate itself in that area.  It will need a little help, IMHO.