Topic: What to do about people who believe that stealing is ok - page 2. (Read 1117 times)

Participating in the market is not a choice when the resources necessary for survival are all tied up in said market.  I'd be fine with captialism if we gave everyone rights to the things that are necessary and let the free markets decide who gets the luxuries. 

I liked the way the Khmer Rouge did it:  make a 'year zero' by burning all the books and shooting anyone who wore glasses under the suspicion that they know how to read.  Communists seem to have a thing about children so they had the kids do the machete killings in order to help with their training.

Marx is suggested to have been a Satanist, and there seems to be perhaps some credible evidence in this regard.  One way or another, the expression of Communism in most instance of it's practice suggest that there were some real sickos at the helm.  Likewise, it seems to have a disproportionate appeal to sickos in the modern world as well for whatever reason.  In part because it has marketing value I would guess.  But in fairness I would say that that appeal is more the fault of negligence on the part of the Capitalists for not realizing the long term value of mildly fair transfers of wealth than it is the fault of the 'Communists' who can make hay of the disparities for their own nefarious goal.

What class? You have no class. You are a fraud that is not fit to teach people how to use the fryer at McDonalds. What you advocate for IS about the USSR, because history shows that is inevitably what your ideology results in. You can pretend it is "different this time" over and over again at the cost of millions of lives, but that doesn't change the facts. You talk about how you don't deserve all the material wealth you have and don't deserve, but you don't give it away now do you? You talk about how you know more about poverty than the impoverished from the position of your pampered lifestyle, wagging your finger at people who have actually lived that experience. You preach to people who have suffered under Communism and Socialism that they "just don't get it" as you benefit from living in a Western capitalist society. You have no morals. You have no principles. You have no logos. You have no knowledge. All you have is bullshit, narcissism, and a savior complex.

Your conclusion implies that you believe stealing is ok because it always happens.  You excuse capitalist theft because the victims of said theft have a possibility of avoiding it someday.


and you have jumped to that conclusion after observing the behavior of humans in different types of slave systems.  You haven't observed the prevailing mentality in any system where freedom is the default for comparison, nor have you contemplated the possibilities of a such hypothetical system.  Everything seems impossible until it happens for the first time.  

You're coming to this conclusion based on solely on transitions from one degree of slavery to another.  Slaves did not have freedom after slavery.  Many had the opportunity to leave their plantation and become sharecroppers where they would have no rights and earn less than the sum of what they were provided as slaves.  Many would starve and suffer even more under those conditions.  The descendants of slaves just got freedom of movement in recent decades and are still struggling for equal rights today.    Capitalism is only marginally better.  Some of systems you call communism were also essentially slavery for the masses by the government.

I'm really confused because you definition of poor seems to be changing within every post.  What is your definition of poor?  You said poor people want to stay poor then you said you know what poor people want because you were poor, then you said know nothing about being poor yet somehow will die poor and then you said my children and grandchildren (who don't exist) will die poor and all of this with no explanation.   

It seems like you are just ranting out of anger and throwing words at the keyboard.  Like, do you really think a lazy person would go through all this trouble to try and explain poverty to people who clearly don't give a damn about what happens to poor people in this current system?  I may be an ineffective teacher but definitely not a lazy one. TECSHARE has been in my class for a few years and still thinks its about the USSR. 

My assertion was not even baseless.  My assertion was based on your statement that poor people "want to stay poor".  What evidence do you have of that?  I've worked with thousands of adolescents and I've never met a single one who wanted to stay poor.  This is why I have the privilege of a more diverse perspective.   I've worked in poor schools and rich schools and had the opportunity to see the differences first hand and experience how poverty affects education.

As for tecshare...Just because I haven't personally been poor doesn't mean I haven't learned about the experience by accompanying poor children in their academic journey.  I've also done service and work in homeless shelters, soup kitchens and NGOs in Brazil, Peru, Kenya and Cambodia.

With all that said, research is more valuable than experience in the context of a generalized discussion.  Experiences can be anecdotal and due to chance.  I have both so I also have the ability to recognize when the mechanisms I've learned about through research are being experienced by people in front of me.   I've used my privilege to work to bring people up. 

So here I am talking about mechanisms backed by trends in data and research going against one person who thinks the fact that they ate out of a dumpster gives them the authority to refute entire bodies of research on poverty and psychology. 

and another person who thinks any criticism of capitalism is an endorsement of the soviet system because they think there are literally only two ways to setup a society

Where did you see me write about the beating?
I confess that English is not my first language but I think i was very clear in my post.
I am not talking about beatings, but about the instruments of the rule of law and legal responses to breaches of the law.
Legal responses can be counseling, anger control courses, correctional homes and up to jail time.
BTW, behavioral correction with children refers to additional education and work with children, namely by professional persons, psychologists and educators.
I hope everything is clear now.

I don't see him advocating beating anywhere in his statement... I think you need to calm down just a bit.

Such behavior is related to the character and morale of each person.
Due to different circumstances, problems in the family or in society, or bad influences from friends, many people never get a moral compass for life and they don't really learn to differentiate between good and evil.
Sometimes it is possible to make behavioral correction with children, but with adults only punitive measures can help.

The key thing here is that we need to produce more humans.

Space is quite large and if we want to spread humanity throughout the cosmos we need more than what we have here on Earth right now. We need to come up with pro-population strategies. We need to encourage a lot more sex.

For every Ocean Builders home that we create, the coral garden that goes along with it will start soaking up CO2. Coral reefs make up 90% of the world's ecosystems.

There is over three times as much hurricane free ocean space than there is habitable land in the world. This means that if we fill the ocean with these coral building homes will be soaking up CO2 at such a high rate that we will need more humans to produce CO2 so that the plants will be able to survive.

If you want lower birth rates you want all the plants on the world to die. How dare you!

I don't understand why some people are believe that stealing is ok. Those are not learn how to do a good manners. People is stealing because of life is so poor but not that the reason they can find a job so that they have money for there family.
Maybe try to put them on jail so that they learn that stealing is not good.

You just don't get it. He in his self proclaimed privileged life is educated and knows far more about poverty than any homeless person! You just need re-education until you see it his way. Trust him, he knows best from his position of privilege over and over telling people who have suffered under poverty, socialism, and communism personally. All these people who have lived his ideological reality know nothing and they simply need to imagine everyone getting a free pony harder and all the world's problems will be solved. He is enlightened and he will lead poor plebeians like you in the revolt against the evil wealth hoarding kulaks. Once the productive class is destroyed we will all live in equality!

You didn't actually refute my arguments. You just essentially said no, you are wrong, and repeated your premise. Once again you are making assumptions and projections that are by far not assured. Also if you are wrong the results have been shown throughout history in the form of millions dead. History shows what you advocate for ends in horrible genocidal failure. Just because it works for some select small groups for short periods in no way means it will translate successfully scaled up, and the historical evidence shows it in fact will end in failure. Keep dreaming Captain Postmodern. Leave the policy decisions to people who make choices based on logos, not ethos.

I think the problem in bold is that you have a lack of knowledge of the poor.  You think they want to be poor which indicates you simply don't know any poor people.  You also seem to think the poor have a lot more than they do have.  You're out of touch with the poor and I'm out of touch with how you could think human nature is to want to stay poor.

Rich is a relative term.  Only evil people want to be billionaires and when I'm attacking billionaires, I'm not referring to rich people like everyone on this board.  I'd guess most of the posters on this board are in the top 1% and the ones who aren't are definitely in the top 5% so generally, every discussion here has a perspective that is blind to 95% of the people on the planet.   

Everyone wants security, clean water, shelter, and food.  Everyone wants leisure time.   Everyone wants freedom.   I define rich as people who never have to worry about any of these things which is what I mean by people like us on this board.  I'm pretty certain no one here is a billionaire but no one who is actually poor has time for this type of discussion either.   You're so rich and so surrounded by wealth that you think poor people are also rich.

This is all I'm about.  We agree on this and maybe just disagree on what the conditions are that allow people to become successful.  I think my background in education and academia gives me more of a clear picture of the road to success because I have seen it in many different areas and been able to compare and contrast how people from different situations have different experiences in terms of education and lack of education.

It is completely based on reality.   You are only using basic intuition and preconceived ideas about how things worked and ignoring data and research that sometimes provides counterintuitive results.  

I understand how one can start off thinking that people will reproduce infinitely but there is a mountain of research and real-world evidence that shows the more education women have, the less they reproduce.  Nations with higher human devleopment have lower birth rates and many of the highest, most socialized nations with large safety nets and welfare actually have birth rates below replacement.  This is because women who have more education end up with physical autonomy and the ability to afford contraception, birth control and pursuit of professional careers.  They end up delaying motherhood and end up with only a few years of fertility by the time they are settled.  

https://www.economist.com/international/2019/02/02/thanks-to-education-global-fertility-could-fall-faster-than-expected

Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Iceland are all under 2 children per woman.  Certainly not infinite reproduction despite universal access to education, healthcare, shelter and food.  Not only do these countries still function, but they are all among the most well-off in the world.  This is not communism at all and its definitely not the crap you call communism. 

Meanwhile look at all the countries with the high rates of births and they are all countries with high levels of poverty, poor education, and poor healthcare.  The correlation and causation are undeniable.




 

That diagram shows part of one cycle.

Any Communist from Marx on down will tell you that Capitalism is a necessary stage in political development.  It's the stage where shit that is worth stealing is created.  Then Communism steals it.  Then Communism collapses and you get an Oligarchy.  The former Soviet Union is the best example of of what is nearly a full cycle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoQhXh_Q0AU

You sure are making lots of assumptions about things that will have tremendously horrible results when you are proven wrong. Saying people will not reproduce infinitely if educated is like saying no one will starve if they have food. It is a nonsense premise that seems self evident while simultaneously having zero assurance of being achieved, and furthermore if it is not achieved the result is there aren't enough resources for anyone and mass death and suffering increases, possibly to terminal levels for humanity and other species.

You need to realize you aren't enlightened for imagining a better world. You aren't saying anything new, profound, or even useful. What you are advocating for is 100% based in ethos, and has no basis in reality. You can imagine a world where everyone gets a pony, but that makes no difference in bringing that to reality. It simply is not possible, that its without horrible freedom crushing technocratic totalitarianism where humans are managed like cattle and make none of their own choices.

More and more people are being brought out of poverty than ever before in human history in spite of your winging and despair. You don't have any  solutions, you have fantasies with no functional plan to get there. You fail to realize you are only taking those that don't live in a nightmare and sending them and everyone else to an even worse hell.


Coins4Commies Global Development Strategy:

What idiot would think its ok to take something that does not belong to them.
These kinds of people needs to be locked in prison

I'm only saying we should already be giving everyone education.  Once everyone has been educated, what they do with that education is on them but you can't blame people who never had education for not making smart, educated decisions.

Give everyone good sex education and access to sexual healthcare and you reduce the birthrate.  That much is proven to work.    

I want to give everyone fishing lessons.  I want to give children fish until they are old enough to fish for themselves.

Blaming parents for children being poor is fine but doesn't solve the problem.  Punishing kids for having bad parents is awful.  Kids don't choose their parents.  
Humans won't reproduce infinitely if they are educated.  Educating everyone isn't just going to benefit the poor.  Its going to benefit the entire society without breaking an incentive.  Survival is not the only incentive.  Theres still a huge gap between having the bare essentials and being rich.  No one wants to get rid of that gap.

Its not just "some" people or "some" times.  You need to realize that most people are poor.  Two thirds of the world's population don't even have access to clean freshwater throughout the year.    Half of the world live on less than 6 dollars a day.  The poor of the future will be even worse off.   A system that fails most people is a failed system.  We just happen to be in the exception of people who have benefited by fluke.  

Reality is already a nightmare by your own account so theres no point in staying idle and letting all of humanity's solutions to these problems go to waste.

The problem with your logic (or rather lack of) is that you suffer under the delusion that everyone can be saved. You are seeking a fantasy that is impossible to implement, and every time it is tried it results in a living nightmare. Humans can potentially reproduce infinitely. Resources are not infinite no matter how much money you hand out. If you break the incentive for the producers to provide for all of us, everyone loses. In the real world bad things happen. People suffer. This is a fact of life. Your inability to come to terms with this is a result of your own infantilization living such a privileged life. Some of us made it to the life boat, some didn't. You just continually trying to jam more and more people onto the life boat means it sinks and we all drown.

You aren't a man who has suffered, you are a child misleading other children into a delusional and fatal fantasy where the police are always your friend, the doctor always wants to heal you, and the government always has your best interest at heart. You are doing nothing but preparing the next generation to fail because you can't cope with the fact that some times people end up in horrible situations, and it isn't necessarily anyone's fault. You aren't Jesus Christ and you aren't going to save the world, and you will burn it down trying.