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Topic: What will the price of BTC be when 22M people want 1 BTC each? (Read 4304 times)

sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 255
What will the price of BTC be when 22 million people want 1 BTC each?

No idea. But at that point, having 100,000,000 satoshis will be considered a status symbol.

"Wow! You have a WHOLE bitcoin?"

"Yeah, but I'm not gonna spend any of it because I like seeing 1.00000000 in my wallet."

I guess there could be some strange persons like that, maybe they should buy 1.2 just incase they want to spend some.

Hahaa... for some time I have encouraged to buy a little bit more over the "cold storage" amount. Like BTC1,200 Smiley

That would be a little bit difficult these days...
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
What will the price of BTC be when 22 million people want 1 BTC each?

No idea. But at that point, having 100,000,000 satoshis will be considered a status symbol.

"Wow! You have a WHOLE bitcoin?"

"Yeah, but I'm not gonna spend any of it because I like seeing 1.00000000 in my wallet."

I guess there could be some strange persons like that, maybe they should buy 1.2 just incase they want to spend some.

Hahaa... for some time I have encouraged to buy a little bit more over the "cold storage" amount. Like BTC1,200 Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Changing avatars is currently not possible.
What will the price of BTC be when 22 million people want 1 BTC each?

No idea. But at that point, having 100,000,000 satoshis will be considered a status symbol.

"Wow! You have a WHOLE bitcoin?"

"Yeah, but I'm not gonna spend any of it because I like seeing 1.00000000 in my wallet."

I guess there could be some strange persons like that, maybe they should buy 1.2 just incase they want to spend some.
hero member
Activity: 740
Merit: 500
Hello world!
Hard to predict, but how can we be sure this is not already the case?
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
Ripple is an example of model, where money supply is fixed, but distribution is according to the whims of a soviet.

Bitcoin is an example of model, where money supply is fixed, and distribution happens over more than 100 years according to a predetermined model where everyone can participate in a free market fashion.

Ripple team has stated that they do not want energy to be wasted in generating the money supply. In other words, they want to get something from nothing. In the real world things don't go this way. If you have paid a lot for something, you value it more, and with Bitcoin you are guaranteed to pay the going price (if you buy outright) or even more (if you start mining).

No free bitcoins have ever been. In 2009 when you could have mined thousands, the "exchange rate" was so low that you would have done better working at McDonalds (unless you saw the vision of the whole thing and just needed the amount of coins, like Satoshi, or the guy in the Reddit post). Later on and when MtGox opened, it has been more profitable to buy from an exchange, which means that the actual value is paid in return.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006
How many users do we currently have?


i really really wish we knew.

no way to be sure.

best guess is to look at downloaded and active clients. unless anyone has better ideas?



Maybe we already have 22M users.

No way, not even close. If we're at a million i'd be shocked.

Wikipedia reports 39% of the world's people use the internet. That's 2.7B people that have a chance to learn about bitcoin. A million of those is 1 in 2700.


sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
How many users do we currently have?


i really really wish we knew.

no way to be sure.

best guess is to look at downloaded and active clients. unless anyone has better ideas?



Maybe we already have 22M users.

No way, not even close. If we're at a million i'd be shocked.
full member
Activity: 146
Merit: 100
Why is gold much more valuable than silver, despite that it has way less actual uses? Why is dollar more valuable than gold, even though everyone knows that it is a unit of unpayable debt from a bankrupt government?

Gold and silver have been money for almost 6000 years of history... Gold is a rare precious metal but also has unique properties. Gold is indispensable to science and technology because of its physical properties, it is highly reflective and malleable, it's an excellent conductor, it does not rust, tarnish or corrode, and gold does not dissolve in water or most acids. In 10,000 years, gold will still be gold, but bitcoin won't exist anymore.

The US held more gold than any other nation and it helps to give the world confidence and the US dollar credibility...

Even if you consider Litecoin to be technically superior to Bitcoin (I don't), it is a minor tweak and not a generational improvement.

Most People don't care if Litecoin is technically superior to Bitcoin or not. They just want the best coin to pump and dump... This is the sad reality.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
What will the price of BTC be when 22 million people know that bitcoin is not gold and that there are many altcoins which work exactly like bitcoin?



You suggest everyone will create his own altcoin? Then these altcoins will be worth nothing because no one will want exchange something for this

sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 286
Neptune, Scalable Privacy
What will the price of BTC be when 22 million people know that bitcoin is not gold and that there are many altcoins which work exactly like bitcoin?

What will the price of BTC be when the major exchanges like MtGox, Btcchina & co. add other coins on their platform?

Why is gold much more valuable than silver, despite that it has way less actual uses? Why is dollar more valuable than gold, even though everyone knows that it is a unit of unpayable debt from a bankrupt government?

Marketability. Salability. Hoardability.

(...)
It is always nice to read your long elaborations on monetary theory and history. Thank you for sharing!
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
Even a humble request to get back the gold that you own (Germany, from USA) is turned down. Finland knows better to not even ask for its reserves. (When Bank of Finland was questioned this, the answer was that they are happy that gold is safely stored in London and other places. My interpretation: no chance to ever see the gold.)


Germany did good by asking because they US at least was forced to pay for the right to return the gold later. No this is not better than having the gold now but better than not having it AND not receiving a fee.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
What will the price of BTC be when 22 million people want 1 BTC each?
How far are we from this date?
Hmm...
By then, it would have become apparent that Bitcoin doesn't scale so the price should be close to 0.

donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
What will the price of BTC be when 22 million people know that bitcoin is not gold and that there are many altcoins which work exactly like bitcoin?

What will the price of BTC be when the major exchanges like MtGox, Btcchina & co. add other coins on their platform?

Why is gold much more valuable than silver, despite that it has way less actual uses? Why is dollar more valuable than gold, even though everyone knows that it is a unit of unpayable debt from a bankrupt government?

Marketability. Salability. Hoardability.

You can use dollar everywhere, whereas gold you must sell and convert, and that happens differently in every country, involving hassle and fees. With silver, the situation is pathetic, and despite being the layman's money for 25 centuries, it does not function as currency anywhere today.

In The Art of War, Sun Tzu tells that 50 kilograms of silver is enough for upkeep of a 100,000-strong army for one day. Today that same amount has a purchasing power of mere $35k. I venture to guess that 35M is required today. This is an illustration that monetary elements' valuation can change over time when changes in their monetary properties occur.

As a investment silver merchant, I am very much aware that silver is "poor man's gold". For a rich man the difficulty of obtaining a large holding of silver is prohibitive. Buffett bought silver in the 1990s, and it took years for him to receive it, for the sellers had difficulty procuring it from the market. Silver price and silver lease rates shot up 50%. He was instructed to sell the holding before it caused more disruption to the silver market. Then I know a person who owned a few million$ worth of silver, and had to do it via banks due to the lach of physical merchants. He too was swindled out of his holdings. I am pretty much the "highest" guy who can own silver free of government intervention. Even if this wasn't the problem, the problem is the fact that buying and selling so much is a large international operation. Even for people less wealthy than me, silver is often too much of a hassle especially as most of its attributes are found in gold, you essentially trade some leverage for marketability. The largest practical silver holding is less than $100k and do not expect to trade it because dealers will suck you dry. Something that sucks so bad in hoardability cannot be money. (Silvervault is my creation that is designed to empower physical silver to work as money; currently it has not succeeded in the main mission but is well functioning as a depository.)

Gold fares a little (2 orders of magnitude Smiley ) better, because you can pack 100 times the value of silver in the same space. Market does not collapse if you try to buy and sell $1 million worth of physical gold, it is always available (well not always, but that is again those behind-the-scenes things, which are not the main issue here). Even countries have gold reserves, but gold is currently so cheap that the largest players who want gold (China, Russia) cannot buy it from the market since the largest holders (international bankers) are not selling. Even a humble request to get back the gold that you own (Germany, from USA) is turned down. Finland knows better to not even ask for its reserves. (When Bank of Finland was questioned this, the answer was that they are happy that gold is safely stored in London and other places. My interpretation: no chance to ever see the gold.)

The basis of dollar's value is in its monetary attributes. If it was not so ubiquituos and accepted everywhere, I highly doubt that it would be able to reach its current dominance. After 150 years of dirty tricks, assassinations, coups, puppet governments, wars with millions of deaths, and the building of a socialist system that constitutes 50% of the economic activity, it has this role, though. Companies that produce stuff and have been profitable for decades in a row, do not enjoy the same credit rating and must pay higher interest. The reason is that companies are smaller and the marketability of their debt is thus weaker. Midsize corporations also have the political risk of running into adversities if they do not conform to the unwritten rules of their domicile, no matter how solid the business was. "Democratic" governments cannot default on their debts, this was by the way a major reason why England gained dominance in 1700s - interest rate was lower, boosting investment. In the continent, kings needed to pay more, since the successor did not always assume their debts.

That some good gains a monetary status (that it acts as money) is not an everyday occurrence. In very early times it has been hypothesized that salt and cattle were used as money. When metals became available, they became the money par excellence, not always available to the public due to their high price, but being the unit of value, medium of exchange in large purchases, and especially store of value. This has continued until present day, only in the 20th century has the common perception of what is money, changed from metal to numbers of an abstract unit.

That some good gains a dominant monetary status, does not happen in once per millennium. There is no explicit evidence that this has ever been occurred before the coercion-induced switch from gold to fiat in the 1900s. (It is debatable whether silver was dominant to gold prior to 1800s, because the values of their monetary stocks ("market caps") were in the same ballpark.) The reason why a money cannot gain dominance over another, is that a good money has the least possible inflation. To have a 1.2% inflation of gold today, the money supply would only about triple in 100 years. But if it grows so slowly, you never get started with your new money! There needs to be a stock to begin with, and it must grow at maximum very slowly.

Ripple is an example of model, where money supply is fixed, but distribution is according to the whims of a soviet.

Bitcoin is an example of model, where money supply is fixed, and distribution happens over more than 100 years according to a predetermined model where everyone can participate in a free market fashion.

Ripple has at times been more valuable than Bitcoin, so the jury is still out. If people continue to buy ripples and keep the exchange rate up, it does not matter how OpenCoin distributes the stash. But I doubt that the fad will last, because XRP as a currency is hardly any improvement over USD, and is currently a terrible underdog in acceptance. (Can you buy anything with XRP?)

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a genuine improvement over both gold and USD. It is the most hoardable, since you can store and move an arbitrary amount of wealth as easily as you buy a sandwich. It has transactional capabilities which, when fully implemented, outdo all that Visa and PayPal can even dream of in their dollar economy.

And it has a 2-year (2 orders of magnitude) lead over the nearest competitor, Litecoin. Even if you consider Litecoin to be technically superior to Bitcoin (I don't), it is a minor tweak and not a generational improvement. At present I cannot imagine anything which would be so much superior to Bitcoin than Bitcoin is to U.S. Dollar, and therefore it is not just improbable, but outright impossible that an altcoin would take over Bitcoin.

Summary: Nothing prevents the public from buying gold or even silver, if they like. Altcoins will remain in niche applications, but the market cap ratio between Bitcoin and best altcoin will be on average 50:1, as is the market cap ratio between gold and silver, its nearest competitor.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
They would get alt instead of BTC Smiley
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 501
Ching-Chang;Ding-Dong
The price will be 7.
full member
Activity: 146
Merit: 100
What will the price of BTC be when 22 million people know that bitcoin is not gold and that there are many altcoins which work exactly like bitcoin?

What will the price of BTC be when the major exchanges like MtGox, Btcchina & co. add other coins on their platform?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1070
21 Million people want 1 BTC = 1 BTC = $21 million

Right?

Right!!

Right??

Pretty obvious to me.

Right?

No, you can't know from that question. Here is another way. It works  since we are talking of money, which have no use value.

What will the price of BTC be when 21M people want enough BTC to buy a pair of shoes?

Then the answer is 1BTC is the value of one pair of shoes, currently about 500 yuan.

So when 210 million people wants the exact same thing, BTC = 5000 yuan.



That guy just posted in my thread so he could quote himself. He failed to change accounts. Just place him on ignore.

What is all this silliness about me forgetting to change accounts? That doesn't even make sense. I just thought this thread was ridiculous, so I commented in it with complete absurdity.  "21 Million people want 1 BTC = 1 BTC = $21 million" doesn't make any sense. Just like this thread.

And then I just commented on my own absurd equation by calling it "ridiculous."

I swear, the # of tin foil hats around here completely disrupts everyones since of satire and sarcasm.

So, right, go ahead and ignore me, so you can better pick up that radio signal.
legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
I understand the question, and it does not have an easy answer.

This thread is imho a quality read, concerning the distribution of bitcoins.

A large percent of the most active forum members have very high bitcoin balances and no intention to sell them. This must be taken into account when considering the situation that 20 million people want in. A really large slice of the cake is taken by the big holders.

It is mathematically improbable, not only to have more than 21 million holders of BTC1, but actually to have even 2 million such holders! To have more than 5 million is flat out impossible if free market remains and the large holders are not coerced out of their holdings.

Goat, I know the proof of my findings is not yet there in an unrefutable form, but the fact remains.

What comes to the topic, an easy estimate is ofter better than a difficult one (extrapolate):
year end - users - price
2009 - 20
2010 - 200 - 0.5
2011 - 2000
2012 - 20k
2013 - 200k - 500
2014 - 2M
2015 - 20M - 50k.

It is not inconceivable that when 22 million people have some bitcoins, one goes for $50k.

Just imagine when Bitcoin goes mainstream and 5% of the world's population (400M people) want to use bitcoin. Where is the price then?

The answer to the OP is no price will allow for 21M people to own at least 1 BTC, from the simple fact that there are many people who currently own more than 1 BTC and will always own at least a few coins. For 21M people to own BTC means that many will have to settle for having much less than 1.0 BTC in total. This is why the price has so much room to grow...
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
21 Million people want 1 BTC = 1 BTC = $21 million

Right?

Right!!

Right??

Pretty obvious to me.

Right?

No, you can't know from that question. Here is another way. It works  since we are talking of money, which have no use value.

What will the price of BTC be when 21M people want enough BTC to buy a pair of shoes?

Then the answer is 1BTC is the value of one pair of shoes, currently about 500 yuan.

So when 210 million people wants the exact same thing, BTC = 5000 yuan.



That guy just posted in my thread so he could quote himself. He failed to change accounts. Just place him on ignore.

Maybe, just answering the question in the title. You know, every time you buy something, you marginally raise the price of the type of thing you would buy, and at the same time you marginally lower the price of money (expressed in any good). That is why the value of money rise, when users want to hold money.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
21 Million people want 1 BTC = 1 BTC = $21 million

Right?

Right!!

Right??

Pretty obvious to me.

Right?

No, you can't know from that question. Here is another way. It works  since we are talking of money, which have no use value.

What will the price of BTC be when 21M people want enough BTC to buy a pair of shoes?

Then the answer is 1BTC is the value of one pair of shoes, currently about 500 yuan.

So when 210 million people wants the exact same thing, BTC = 5000 yuan.

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