Topic: What's wrong with Betcoin.ag? Here's a list. - page 3. (Read 19415 times)

Could you post a brief tutorial, or a link to a post with the info?

Many players who used the table starter rakeback program were overpaid, and probably aren't due much if any refund when these potentially overpaid moneys are considered. However; who is around to calculate exactly how much of a player's play was using table starter compared to their overall play as a whole? Betcoin certainly has not attempted to make any such calculations.

Secondly, the players using table starter make up a small percentage of players at Betcoin in my opinion. Without using table starter, players received rakeback and vip benefits on their play, yes, but they were overraked so this hardly matters and only increases the amount taken out of their accounts, regardless of what percentage of that moneys was given back (below 100%).

A lot of these caps at various levels were 3x-6x too high. So, you can only imagine the damage done to players like ___ACTl0NNNN if he weren't using table starter. I spoke with a player who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of retaliation who said they never used table starter even once. I instructed them how to find their overraked hands through pokertracker4. This player found more than 300 chips in overpaid rake. Their VIP level returned them maybe 20% of this amount, so they're due a significant amount in refund. I would describe this player as a recreational player.

I imagine there are many others out there with similar numbers who never used table starter, the majority of which do not even know this issue occurred even months later.

http://www.bestbitcoinpoker.org/websites/betcoin-ag/

http://btcpoker.co.uk/betcoin-poker/

https://bitcoincasinos.reviews/betcoinag-review/

"One of the newest online poker sites in the industry, it initially launched in December 2013 as Betcoin Sportsbook, before going on to add Betcoin Casino and then Betcoin Poker.  While information about the company’s origin is rather scarce, we do know that it was founded by two iGaming experts Ali Bagheri and Magnus Lindberg who ambitiously aimed to develop the worlds largest Bitcoin poker site and pave the way for a new era in online gaming entertainment."

It was earlier - anyway- I have been sick and laying around in bed, will post more on this soon.

I see from the picture you posted they founded Betcoin on November 2014 but I'm quite sure they did it earlier: at least one year before.
But maybe that's only the date when he created his account on the site from which that screenshot come from.

Or more likely I'm missing something.

@drsnaggles

Thanks, alot of good advice and info I had no idea about.

I'm definitely going to put together some sort of formal complaint to and see where i can get it to stick.

I looked into  Ali Bagheri and Magnus Lindberg, and can't imagine they have been involved with Betcoin for long after they launched.  They seem to have developed whatever software Betcoin is using for WPN tournaments to automatically convert BTC to USD and then back to BTC should the player cash.  I don't think they developed it with Betcoin as it is today in mind.

For those who don't know, when you buy in to these tournaments, there is no log or record available.  Not for the player and support often has no clue what tournaments someone played.

Players get screwed constantly when tournaments are cancelled, or they unregister from a tournament but don't get a refund.  Support basically has to take their word that it ever happened.

To me, this is the sign of a business using software they don't understand.  Not a business run by the guys who developed it.

I think this is the Betcoin that the Bagheri and Lindberg sold:






Not this:

Its not that easy as it might seem. Its one thing to run a scam for a short time and disappear and another staying online "completely illegal" in the public eye for some years. There is no point for them to not inform the government of their business since its very easy legally to set up a company like this in Costa Rica (the second cheapest option would have to be Panama, but its already way more expensive). Companies/Businesses move there due to the low taxes, so in order to avoid taxes in an already tax haven - they would have to be deranged and surely wouldnt survive that long. Competition alone would have already reported them. There are many in Costa Rica and Betcoin seems to have a big name, so in case they would be really that highly illegal, other would have taken care of it - same as in every other industry since one less on the market means more money for you.

Im still interested in understanding the full legal ground of them but you need to keep in mind that the people behind Betcoin are known to everyone (who wants) and are not hiding, if thats what you are indicating sometimes (?). Betcoin was founded by Ali Bagheri and Magnus Lindberg and while I agree they dont run around telling everyone, they are surely not "hiding" the fact. They seem to have invested alot in their legal division prior to setting up Betcoin and its interesting to note that Ali Bagheri is currently only a "consultant" to the company. Both are swedish guys and both have been in i-gaming for years. They are entrepreneurs. I would perhaps bet money that the final intention is to sell it to someone else and move on. Magnus has been in several projects like this.

Its still a wild guess, but mixing up jurisdictions, location of servers and whatnot is a common practice among even the biggest regulated gaming operators - there is nothing wrong with that, so I assume they are doing the same, securing themselves in every way possible (its a guess, but understand that they wont be handing out blueprints to their investment plan). If I have a chance I will try to ask directly how it works (as I dont understand which jurisdiction is responsible for what in their structure)

Regarding all these issues with them, thats another thing. Business doesnt work like a lemon stand buying/selling and as I mentioned before, I believe they are running out of money slowly, along with regulated markets growing. We will see, but if you have solid proof that they are stealing money or manipulating something (which from what I understand is the case), forward it to EVERY possible jurisdiction they have legally a presence (a mailbox is enough). Send an email/letter outlining the problem to every chamber of commerce and/or also a cybercrime unit like the one at europol (just google it). Curacao has a gambling commission and Im sure they would be interested to know if an operator is claiming to be using their jurisdiction somehow without permit - and I doubt Betcoin would risk that.

They are too smart to just run into a knife with this by being stupid and if I could give them an advise, I would seriously fire or punch everyone of their drunken CS team, who would be a disgrace in every industry/business.

Another possibility is that they are already selling or have sold their shares and the company is run by someone else (again, they do many projects). The customer service is customer service... dont always take everything serious they say, they are nobody in this. When Microsoft fucks up again, I cant go to court with a conversation of their CS claiming I made a mistake setting up my Skype.

In the end, to set up something like this, the sportsbook alone, you need feed providers, automatic settling etc... there is quite some money involved upfront to be able to do that and im not talking few thousands. Whatever is now, it surely cant have been the intention from the start. Lets see....

So I noticed recently Xiao posted this:

So I did some investigating because I have paid thousands in WPN MTT fees and never heard of this "Players only get half of their normal rakeback for WPN mtts". It's not mentioned anywhere on Betcoins site.  In a forum post I found, they even stated the oppopsite:

https://www.betcoin.ag/vip-affiliate-rakeback-tourney-fees-betcoin-explained
(note: the money owed to me took place from March - Mid October, I estimate it between 3 and 4 BTC) They banned me in november for refusing to shut up about the missing rakeback)

I'm guessing george wasnt the employee who wrote me this pm recently:

[/quote]

Wow, very detailed post. It is interesting to me as outsider (I did not play on that site) to see how far people can go to scam their fellow BTCfans from money. It is a shame honestly.

I dont want to make it look like Im defending WPN or especially Betcoin in any way, because I fully believe Betcoin is a bunch of amateurs that is about to go broke/run (but not yet), but WPN is not "unregulated" based on law. As mentioned and outlined in my previous post, they are located in Costa Rica. The legal enviroment in Costa Rica allows them to open up a Pokerroom or Sportsbook and the Costa Rica government has laws/rules for that (see my link provided in previous post - run it through google translator if you dont speak spanish - I cant find any official english version of it). Is this creating trust when dealing with them? No, I dont think so, but since Costa Rica has a jurisdiction, the legal papers are valid.

In regards to Calvin and Bodog, well, Calvin is the uncle scrooge or Richard Bronson of gaming, he probably has a billion on his account - its a different class, but its a good example, because he did break the law and bodog.com was seized by the feds - no matter how big he is/was. An operation like WPN for Calvin would be peanuts.. not worth his style, but he could do it whenever. I guess he wont be visiting USA anytime soon:

http://www.flushdraw.net/news/feds-want-calvin-ayre-extradited-united-states/

Didnt he go to Manila at some point?

Phil, on the other hand, is even officially announcing the expansion:

http://pokerfuse.com/news/law-and-regulation/27253-wpn-ceo-phil-nagy-legalized-poker-overrated/

He would have to be suicidal to say that without any legal back up. Hes hiding behind the Costa Rica law, which is his right to do so. Feds wont be happy but hes not breaking the law, hes withdrawing step by step from everywhere where regulation started and looking for more unregulated ones.

Now, Betcoin must have some sort of contract with WPN, else they wouldnt be able on that network and WPN has the responsibility of ensuring the security when running the tournaments. You can sign up with any network depending on your budget, but that network provider cant shift responsibility to others - its them who own the tournaments.

Betcoins own tournaments is a different thing .. I actually didnt had this in mind. You are absolutely right, that is proper bullshit without any legal ground I can see - perhaps they have a parental mailbox company set up in Costa Rica. If not just report them to some international cybercrime unit (Europol should have one). I just have a hard time believing they would be running all this with "nothing" .. often it appears like nothing, but there is at least some "registration" somewhere. Having said all that, Im curious now myself about the exact whereabouts of them... will be back.

Edit:

For what its worth, their own TCs are saying:
https://www.betcoin.ag/support/betcoin-poker-terms-service-tos

25. GOVERNING LAW
These Agreements shall be governed by and interpreted in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong. You irrevocably agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Curacao in The Netherlands Antilles for the settlement of any dispute or matters arising out of or concerning these Agreements or their enforceability.

According to "Robert" here, the site itself is in Costa Rica:



This is a wild guess, but I assume its a mix of several jurisdictions due to tax, servers, law etc. - but still doesnt answer much. Hong Kong has quite a few Bitcoin related companies registered and Curacao is known for gambling activities .. just not sure yet how the puzzle fits but will be back

It's unregulated.  They don't have a license.  Anywhere.  Same as swcpoker

You won't find mention of one anywhere: http://www.winningpokernetwork.com/

Betcoin may not even have a headquarters.  Up until a few months ago it was literally just 3 or 4 guys running the show.  Now they have 4 or 5 CS people and the 3 or 4 guys are now the "managers"



I live in NJ and have played full time on the regulated sites here since day 1.  I also play on 5dimes, betdsi and moneybooker which are all partners of WPN (unlike Betcoin) and they have no problem letting me play and they know where I live. ACR, Blackchip Truepoker (also WPN partners) won't let me play.  I can't play on Bodog either.  Betcris doesn't accept Americans at all anymore.

I'm not sure how Phil gets away with his identity and position in the public, but I know the feds have tried and failed at shutting down Bovada and arresting Calvin Ayres, and probably aren't to happy with WPN either.

I think ACR fucked up in early 2014. They were airing the WSOP National Championship from the Boardwalk in Atlantic City on ESPN, sponsored by WSOP.com (a regulated NJ site).  ACR bought a ton of commercials, literally one every break at least making "legal online poker" look like a joke compared to the tournaments they guaranteed. Caesers got pissed and got NJDGE to do something - it worked.



Getting back to Betcoin-

They aren't even part of WPN.  They're in the Winning Tournament Network (WTN) which means WPN sells them entries to their tournaments for 50% of the fee.

Betcoin has their own network of players, they run their own cash games and Bitcoin only tournaments, and nobody even know who the fuck they are.  There's nobody in costa rica that knows anything about how Betcoin runs their business any more than you or me.

3 easy steps to create your own site and have instant liquidity with WTN: http://www.winningtournamentnetwork.com/service/



Here's what WPN Tourney Director said in November about Betcoin:

Phil wouldnt be able to make official statements to the press, including american media without any legal grounds. He would be arrested at the next opportunity since USA is cracking down all illegal offerings. They are using a loophole thats why WPN cant offer services to all states in USA (Nevada, Delaware....) where regulation has started. Else it wouldnt be different than a drugdealer openly announcing his services now to another country, because police cracked down his operation.

Having said that, from a legal point of view, you could call it "unregulated" since "regulated" markets exist but this is like having a license from Malta and offering services to e.g. Italy based on EU rules.

I admit, my info was outdated - they have left the Kahnawake license, silently, in 2014 (when pulling out of the regulated states - since the canadian license was not protecting them anymore) and continue to be "licensed" in Costa Rica (see below for more). Regarding the above mentioned logic, here is an (old) article of WPN pulling out:

http://www.flushdraw.net/news/winning-poker-network-announces-five-1m-tourneys-in-september-and-october/

"Since 2011, three US states have legalized online poker — Nevada, Delaware and New jersey.  However, the fact that no other states have joined those three have allowed gray-market sites serving other US states to continue to flourish."

Another one:

http://mahirpoker.com/wpn-announces-five-more-million-dollar-sundays-throughout-the-fall/

"WPN is the second-biggest US-facing “grey” online poker network, behind Bovada/Bodog, and includes the flagship skins Americas Cardroom (once upon a time known as Doyles Room) and Betcris Poker."

If they would continue offering services to these states now, Phil would be arrested and their websites would be seized as it happened with other illegal pokerrooms.

Regulated and unregulated depends on a point of view - its a grey market, but they need a legal ground to start with and these days its costa rica. The loophole here is, as with many others operating out of costa rica, that the government allows companies to create poker/gaming business - they pay tax on it and using the costa rica cover to offer services around until a market is regulated.

So technically, its Costa Rica and their Chamber of Commerce or whatever its called, the unit that is permitting companies to conduct business. If anyone is fluent in spanish, here you will find a breakdown of taxes and similar for these companies:

http://www.asamblea.go.cr/Centro_de_informacion/biblioteca/Centro_Dudas/Lists/Formule%20su%20pregunta/Attachments/900/Ley%209050-casinos.pdf

So, if they are breaking the law in any way, or companies affiliated with them - its the ones "licensing" them in Costa Rica to contact - which is not a real "gaming license" .. its "a permit to open up a gaming company" - but effectively, its "licensed" through that. With legal paper work , registration and taxes.

If any problems with them arise, its this unit that is responsible. If alot of people claim that Betcoin is stealing money through WPN, complain straight at the ones who allow WPN conduct business - they are legally registered and the law, no matter which license, doesnt allow stealing money

Not sure where you got that info from about WPN being regulated, but it's wrong, they do not have a license from anyone.  Betcoin doesn't have a license either.  You think Kahnawake would license a site with 0 KYC requirements?   This is unregulated poker, the players either need to stand up for themselves  when shit happens or bend over and plan on staying that way.


fwiw, This thread was moved to scam accusations by a mod.  I started it in  MarketPlace > Gambling forum because I don't even know what the definition of "scam" even is these days.  

I don't think I ever called them a scam either.  I may have called their behavior "scammy", but as far as the accusations I've made about them stealing funds, I think they all began as an innocent mistake; a result of their incompetence.  It's the way the handled the situation that is the real issue imo.

For example the rakeback:

Nov 1 I think its reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt that at 00:00 server time on 11/1/16 the rake cap was increased significantly without them realizing it.

It's also reasonable that it took more than a week before anyone noticed since rake, like most ways casinos profit, is designed so that the player barely notices it's happening in the first place.

The issue im trying to draw attention to is that a player (ungod) alerted them about the issue November 14th, yet they did nothing about it until December 10th.  (the day after I raised hell on the forums)

Then, their solution was to raise their rake officially and refuse to refund anything they had "accidentally stolen"

I have a theory on why their not paying back the players, as well.  I don't think they have anyone on staff that even knows where to begin when it comes to calculating the refunds.  I can't remember if it was plo8monster or management but someone seemed to think 600k+ hands would take hundreds of hours to analyze and figure out who to refund and how much.  Anyone with a basic understanding of online poker knows that all you need either Holdem Manager2  or Pokertracker4 and someone who knows how to use it and you could get it done in an hour or two.

Instead they ignore it for months:





Now here we are, almost march 1, they still haven't done shit, so at what point do they go from idiots to idiot thieves?

Is it not stealing if some most of the players dont notice?

I do intend on creating a petition to get Betcoin booted from the WTN on twoplustwo, hopefully I can convince phil that they do way more damage to the integrity and reputation of the network than the 0.5% total liquidity they offer.


One more thing:


I remember the entire Ultimate Bet scandal unfolding on twoplustwo.com, a forum just like this one.  They probably would of gotten away with it if the players thought discussing it on a forum was a waste of time.

Heres the deal, because many seem to believe that by using Bitcoins they entered a different kind of universe robbing them from all rights. Betcoin is not a "scam", they are just amateurs running into a wall, so alot of actions will turn into a scam in the end but right now they are still "legal". If any of you are missing money or have evidence of money stolen - what are you doing here? WPN is providing them with service in poker. You think they would be able to join any respected network? Did you see who WPN is providing services to? (Hi Phil, sorry, fuck you... but i like you) ...

I give you a hint:

"Security and fairness both seem to be taken seriously on the network, which is licensed and regulated by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. The Kahnawake Gaming Commission represents over 250 online gaming sites and are best known for their ruling against the poker site Ultimate Bet on a different network in 2009"

For those of you who remember Ultimate bet, you know how it ended and for those of you have ANY clue about gaming, you know this gaming commission. If you have problems with Betcoin, you write to that gaming commission and they contact WPN and then Betcoin will have to answer.. the rest youre doing is a waste of time... you heard it here first.

I have an emerald 2 account on betcoin that I earned almost entirely from poker. I totally back twitchyseal on nearly everything he has posted here, and even helped contribute some of the facts.

Message from Betcoin staff in player chat (after banning me) after I sent them link to this thread:





I ventured into the sig campaign thread last week when I saw an alt of a Betcoin Shill who was already a member of campaign apply: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13958558

It went how I thought I would:

Not really, I doubt they will be tagged because a few months ago, cloudmining.scamsite had a sig campaign. They provided no mining proof, no select able pools or even pictures of their mining hardware, so it was pretty obvious it's a ponzi. People wearing the sig were not tagged though, since they were probably un-educated and there is a (really) small chance that it is legit. EcuiMobi had a post regarding that on doublebot's sig campaign page I think. Too lazy to find it though.

Only a matter of time before the people wearing the betcoin.ag signature get tagged as scammers,  right? 

I swear there are no honest individuals on this forum.

Phishing attempts sent to emails that were used only to register Betcoin account
They have not accepted responsibility.

(The first email is actually from Betcoin, I think, and likely related )

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"download" is hyperlink to: http://178.33.182.131/security.exe