Topic: When Religion and Finance [Bitcoin] Overlap and Clash - page 2. (Read 400 times)

If one think about the uncertainty, then each and everything will be haram. There is nothing offensive, because we don't know what'll be our situation by tomorrow. This is same with every religious people. I came to know a little about the things mentioned in holy quran that they need to engage in business. I don't know what exactly it means. Business is a kind of investment, we don't know the certainty of profit.

If religion stay as a block then few may follow, which isn't gonna make a big impact on the market. However the final decision is upon an users own sense as said in the above quote.

On this point I totally agree with your opinion. The attraction of money exceeds the attractiveness of a pretty girl. Just because of the money the robbery occurred, torture and even murder.
Money is not everything, but everything costs money. That's the reality.

Back to the topic of discussion, when the development of the times is faced with religion, be it Islam or any other religion, there is a certain point that become a collision. For example, Religion says it is not allowed or forbid something that exists in this day and age, while technological developments have become a part of our lives. Specifically, I described the development of cryptocurrencies as a necessity and providing enjoyment for users to make transactions easier.

I am not really a Muslim or a religious person perse. But I do understand those values but at the end of the day :

Isn't everything uncertain??

The idea of certainty is usually defined by traditional things, traditional investments but when we talk about today's failing economy, can we really position them in the same sector for long term??

-The economy of most countries are falling apart which means soon enough the price of the particular currencies might fall down in matter of seconds.

-The price of most things are sky rocketing, we cannot just define volatility to be a factor attached to Bitcoins.

Investing is considered 'haram' in islam, mainly any short term selling is supposed to be forbidden. But at the same time, I do think we can go into deep depths about what's Haram or no, most of the times, people do it not because they don't trust their religion, but because they trust their common sense more.

At the end of the day it's the decision of a person not the decision of a government forcing their ideals.

I think things like this will still be in a long debate.
Talking about the majority, it may be true that Islam dominates and becomes the majority in Indonesia, but it does not mean that other religions and opinions are ruled out.
Besides that, the rules may only be mostly for those in Indonesia but it seems that things like this will be considered a breeze and I think because this kind of thing is only religious but not bound by laws in the country

I believe what MUI concludes is something that is still superficial. they should compare it with something that is already running and they use for their daily activities as a comparison.
whether crypto and blockchain have too many downsides or will there really be benefits. Of course, if MUI opens more and more in-depth discussions with crypto and blockchain experts in its country, it will get wiser conclusions.
because as far as I know, they forbid Bitcoin as a transaction tool. but as an investment asset, I think it is still tolerated. it may also be against the country's rules that limit the legal currency used as a means of payment.
I think everything will be more flexible when government regulations can strengthen bitcoin's position in a country.

I am a Muslim, but I feel that the fatwa issued by the MUI is very baseless, I think as long as crypto uses private money and is obtained fairly, I think,
here no one is harmed in trading bitcoin and other crypto, the name is trading, I think there must be profit and loss, because that is trading law
if staking is said to be haram, what about bank deposits? a little disappointed with the MUI statement that I can't put into words, basically everyone has a different point of view with bitcoin, let MUI say it's haram but I don't,

Islam has not gone through the conflict between reason and faith that Christianity went through in the Renaissance. In that conflict, faith lost, and has resulted in societies of Christian origin that are increasingly atheistic, and those who are still religious in those societies do not question scientific knowledge on the basis of what the sacred scriptures say, as was done in ancient times. In any case, if there is a conflict between one thing and the other, they try to reconcile them, a task that is becoming increasingly difficult.

Islam will at some point have to face this conflict between reason and faith, hopefully in a more peaceful way than what happened in Europe during the Renaissance, with the condemnation of Galileo and people burned at the stake.

Until then, in cases like this Bitcoin case we can do nothing. If the clerics who are supposed to be the highest interpreters of religion on earth, ban Bitcoin, religious people will believe them, it is a matter of faith, and rational arguments are not going to change it.

AFAIK,interest rates and borrowing money are forbidden by Islam,but Islamic banking still exists.
How come Bitcoin is halal in some Islamic countries and haram in others?It seems to me that this is just the opinion of the Islamic clerics.Some clerics interpret the Quran,Sharia law and the hadiths in one way,other clerics interpret them in another way.It looks like interpretation is more important than the facts.
It's OK that some people will refuse to use Bitcoin,because they think that it's against their morals and/or religious law.
That's the great thing about Bitcoin.Nobody is obligated to use BTC and everyone participates in the community voluntarily.

It will be interesting to see what will happen if Bitcoin or any other Crypto currency for that matter.. become a global currency. We know the Muslims love money, so will they haram that global currency too? All currencies have a speculative side to it, they call it Forex trading.... so is that haram too? 

These Clerics should stick to religious matters and leave financial matters to the experts.... but I think if someone donates a couple of 1000 of bitcoins to them, they will gladly accept it. (hypocrisy at it's best) 

With my little knowledge, i can say that bitcoin could not be disallowed in any religion. You can think of bitcoin as another currency (replacing paper money) or another assets like gold (digital gold). Since both money and gold are allowed in every religion there should be no reason to link bitcoin with religion. I can only believe that this may be another tactic to discourage people from using bitcoins.

I was brought up in a very religious family. I was always taught that money is an evil so we mustn't try to earn more. Personally I don't support this point of view as money is a tool to get something that you need and want. As I live in this world, I have a choice either to be poor and unhappy, or to be rich and be more happy. I choose financial freedom as it opens me and my family a lot of opportunities.

Of course, there are many, but this varies according to the environment in which the person lives. Some Muslims who live in a closed fanatic environment controlled by the clergy with their fanatical ideas, it is difficult for such young people to deviate from the “fatwas” of these fanatics. As for the more open environments that have The opportunity to open up more to the outside world, you will find many young people who do not care about the fatwas of clerics and understand the teachings of Islamic law in their own way, and try to get out of the thinking of fanatic clerics while staying within the teachings of Islamic law.
But to be frank with you, the section that is controlled by the clergy with their fanatical fatwas makes up the largest part of Islamic societies, even in Islamic countries that are somewhat advanced such as Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey, you will find that the largest part is subject to the influence of the clergy, but I am optimistic that this situation will change in the near future with increasing openness to science and other civilizations.

Nevertheless, I think that it is very possible that there will be small groups challenging this fatwa, but I do not know to what extent its impact will be. In the past, some Islamic countries witnessed such a case where people rebelled against some fatwas of clerics, forcing them to retract this fatwa.

By the way, this fatwa regarding bitcoin is not found in all Islamic countries. There are many clerics who do not prohibit bitcoin. If you search the Internet, you will find hundreds of questions about these fatwas related to bitcoin. I have read many fatwas that say that bitcoin is not forbidden, but only margin and futures trading it is forbidden because it is similar to gambling, which is forbidden in Islamic law.

Muslim scholars with time learn things specially related to technology and finance. For instance till 90s Muslim scholars declared stock trading as haram since its not backed by anything. With time they learned that they are physical representation of company and now its declared halal. Right now scholars  are not clear about this technology. With time they will learn and made it halal.

I know you are not the only one having this position. So you guys are in effect actively defying the fatwa of what is considered the foremost Islamic scholarly council in your country. It is interesting to note that a person like you who is strictly adhering to the Islamic teachings is also rejecting the declaration of the Islamic authority.

I'm curious. Is there by any means a possibility that a group of like-minded persons like you would challenge such findings and cause a reversal of the body's earlier declaration?

I am a Muslim and adhere to religious teachings and I work in cryptocurrencies freely without caring about the words of these idiots who call themselves Islamic clerics. I have read the entire Holy Qur’an as well as the bulk of the “honorable hadiths” but I did not find that there is any Quranic or honorable hadith that can be relied upon that we can say that bitcoin is haram or forbidden, how do they consider bitcoin forbidden at the same time that they accept dealing with banknotes? Bitcoin has more stability and certainty than worthless fiat currencies?
Halal and Haram are in the way things are used and not just by owning them. I mean, you own the dollar, for example, and this is not forbidden, but it is forbidden to use it for things forbidden in Islamic law such as gambling, drugs or prostitution, the same for Bitcoin, owning Bitcoin is not forbidden but using it in Things that violate Sharia is forbidden.

Controversy becomes a clash when faced with state law and religious law, especially Islam.
The Indonesian Clerics Council (MUI) has issued a Fatwa through the Ijtima'(agreed) Clerics on the use of cryptocurrency. According to the view of Indonesian Clerics, the use or trading of cryptocurrencies into one of the currencies is haram, because it contain Gharar (transactions uncertainty), Dharar (can harm one party), Qimar (speculative or gambling) And contrary to Law number 7 of 2011 and Bank Indonesia Regulation number 17 of 2015.
The reason Indonesian Clerics issued a fatwa haram on cryptocurrency was because it did not meet the syar'i(provisions in Islam) requirements for sil'ah(real goods or commodities when buying and selling), that is there is a physical form, has a fixed value, and property rights that can be actually transferred to the buyer.

However, Clerics allow trading of cryptocurrencies that comply with Islamic rules, owns underlying asset, and brings clear profit to both parties.

I am not a Muslim but I live in a country where Muslims are the big majority and I have a lot of Muslim friends.A lot of local scholars here declared it forbidden too for the same reasoning as you point out in the first post.However I liked very much the explanation of one of the most well known scholars which he has a magistrate(I think the highest education to Islamic religion) from Saudi Arabia Islamic university.

Many persons asked him what about this new thing,the cryptocurrencies,the Bitcoin.He really easily explained that if a person in Islam buys a good for low price and keeps it to sell it a long time after for a much better price is permitted the same applies to crypto mining clearly making crypto mining allowed.He also said that trading is kinda like gambling which is forbidden.So there are two point of views,mining is allowed while trading isn't.So whoever gets Bitcoin from mining is not forbidden while whoever gets it from trading is clearly forbidden.Hope this helps.

I think this post of mu_enrico shows the best to my understanding of why are they considering crypto bad, I'm almost certain google translate is messing with me on som words that's why I'm not going to enter into details but it means to me the main problem is the speculation over it.
I guess I kind of understand what gharar is but the dharar concept is really weird and I can't picture to what it relates in a crypto transaction.


If you go too deep into this even buying something that you know is going to rise in price from somebody so theoretically making him lose money is forbidden, right?

Anyhow, until any of their recommendations carry the power of law I think it really doesn't matter.

This is the problem when religion interfere and it greatly cost us before just because of the religion. Their beliefs, all of it, but maybe that was one-sided views to others while some perspective will shift in accordance to their knowledge about the outside world regardless of their religion.

Although, we can't stop them if that was their choice since we aren't stepping on their shoe. All we have to do is to respect their choices and let the individual choose their own choices if they want to break the haram or proceed to do on their own accordance.

Afterall, we are all just humans tend to make mistakes as we learn and grow.

Don't know what to say, this is not my realm. Really for me this is beyond knowledge. Religious law is too sensitive for me who does not have the capacity.

As for personally I just hope it's not a moment that only certain groups take advantage of just because ATH has just been touched. Because they should have discussed this a long time ago, but ATH clearly makes people other than religious leaders even have to comment.