its never getting paid off, not in the same purchasing power at least.
the best way out would be to default like Argentina but the American government is probably too proud to admit America is a deadbeat and can never repay its debts.
so whats going to happen is the federal reserve will print as much money as will be needed to service the debt and kill the dollar.
Topic: When will the USA pay their debts, if ever? - page 8. (Read 20979 times)
I still think they could begin to pay off their debts by selling all their military equipment (that's where the borrowed money went, isn't it?). Lots of warships, stealth bombers, missles, etc that could go a long way to squaring America up. I'm sure there must be *some* Americans who feel like shit knowing they are not good for their word any more.
The world should treat America like a dead-beat nation, and start taking back equipment, land, and infrastructure. American's respect bounty hunters and collections agents, it'll be cool.
There's lots of land, the locals could be moved to reserves to free up the good land for the actual owners (the Chinese).
We can dream.
The military equipment would not be sufficient to pay off the debt of the US government, plus there is not sufficient demand for this equipment. Plus such sales would be a threat to both national and world security.The world should treat America like a dead-beat nation, and start taking back equipment, land, and infrastructure. American's respect bounty hunters and collections agents, it'll be cool.
There's lots of land, the locals could be moved to reserves to free up the good land for the actual owners (the Chinese).
We can dream.
A much more viable way to payoff the national debt is entitlement reform
Thanks for taking my post seriously, though you didn't comment on the part where I would put the Americans in reserves before selling the major cities to the highest bidders. Of course it wouldn't be sufficient - but since they can't afford to pay for it, giving it to the debtors is a start. The military equipment in the US's hands has already demonstrably reduced world security, so not sure I can agree on that point either. I point out that there is actually precedent for confiscating the equipment: http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2012/10/05/the-real-story-behind-the-argentine-vessel-in-ghana-and-how-hedge-funds-tried-to-seize-the-presidential-plane/
"Entitlement Reform" as a means to pay off debt is even more delusional than what I am saying up there, since everyone knows that cutting social services etc will only mess your country up even more than it is already, and there would never be enough GDP in a thousand years to pay back all that you guys owe.
Anyway, these things aren't usually up to the debtor. China should decide what they repossess. What about the idea out of Seinfeld, Americans can play the roll of butler for their creditors, for the next 100 years or so?
Given the actual options, it's no wonder the only thing the USA can do is to invade places and destabilize the world, to distract from the massive precipice they are moving towards..
I still think they could begin to pay off their debts by selling all their military equipment (that's where the borrowed money went, isn't it?). Lots of warships, stealth bombers, missles, etc that could go a long way to squaring America up. I'm sure there must be *some* Americans who feel like shit knowing they are not good for their word any more.
The world should treat America like a dead-beat nation, and start taking back equipment, land, and infrastructure. American's respect bounty hunters and collections agents, it'll be cool.
There's lots of land, the locals could be moved to reserves to free up the good land for the actual owners (the Chinese).
We can dream.
The military equipment would not be sufficient to pay off the debt of the US government, plus there is not sufficient demand for this equipment. Plus such sales would be a threat to both national and world security.The world should treat America like a dead-beat nation, and start taking back equipment, land, and infrastructure. American's respect bounty hunters and collections agents, it'll be cool.
There's lots of land, the locals could be moved to reserves to free up the good land for the actual owners (the Chinese).
We can dream.
A much more viable way to payoff the national debt is entitlement reform
You can't pay debt with debt because you are left with debt. 
You're half right.
It is not possible with fractional banking. The entire idea is to not pay it off.
I still think they could begin to pay off their debts by selling all their military equipment (that's where the borrowed money went, isn't it?). Lots of warships, stealth bombers, missles, etc that could go a long way to squaring America up. I'm sure there must be *some* Americans who feel like shit knowing they are not good for their word any more.
The world should treat America like a dead-beat nation, and start taking back equipment, land, and infrastructure. American's respect bounty hunters and collections agents, it'll be cool.
There's lots of land, the locals could be moved to reserves to free up the good land for the actual owners (the Chinese).
We can dream.
The world should treat America like a dead-beat nation, and start taking back equipment, land, and infrastructure. American's respect bounty hunters and collections agents, it'll be cool.
There's lots of land, the locals could be moved to reserves to free up the good land for the actual owners (the Chinese).
We can dream.
It will never happen, no way. Not a 0.001 chance of that. The national debt is a fraud !
In a related note, is there any major country that is completely debt-free?
Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.
On a net basis (meaning that have more cash like assets then they owe other countries) then yes. China is an example of this. Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.
You need to remember that even companies like microsoft and apple have some debt on their balance sheet even though they have tens of billions of dollars at their disposal
U R King. You feel the need to wage war, and the potential victims are:
Country A, which owes you money and is slowly paying it back,
and B, a country you are in serious debt to.
All other things being equal, chose one
In a related note, is there any major country that is completely debt-free?
Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.
On a net basis (meaning that have more cash like assets then they owe other countries) then yes. China is an example of this. Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.
You need to remember that even companies like microsoft and apple have some debt on their balance sheet even though they have tens of billions of dollars at their disposal
In a related note, is there any major country that is completely debt-free?
Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.
Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.
Yet those countries all seem to be growing. Year in and Year out. Owing is just the promise to labor for someone else in the future. Also we mostly owe ourselves regardless of the China myth. So we're promising to labor for ourselves in the future.
The downturn in 2007 was because the fed allowed NGDP to fall 10% instead of growing at 5% as it was for the previous 20 years. If the downturn hadn't happened government debt would be much smaller today.
What do you think would happen today if the fed froze the money supply? We'd have a crash in NGDP much larger than the one in 2007. Why would you want that kind of pain for people? Some sort of moral code that says "don't print more money" because it's evil?
If you want to save and hate 2% inflation than save in real assets, stocks, land, etc. Don't hoard cash and declare that any inflation is evil. And remember, 2% inflation means income is growing by at least 2% as well (actually higher if productivity is growing.)
Talking about debt must first talk to the United States of America. The "doctrine" of horizontal and vertical maneuver debt for centuries, breach of national institutions, coverage throughout the nooks and crannies of life, from school to plate bed, turned the United States into a sea of debt, a debt ocean wave after wave crushed last forever never repaid.
U jelly?
No point trying to pay back the debt if it is still being used as a reserve currency. Until the status quote changes and "real asset" is being demanded to repay the debt, the debt will probably continue to pile up.
It's never going to happen. Those numbers are a joke: trillion, quadrillion, sentillion, zillion, they will just keep adding zeros.
In a related note, is there any major country that is completely debt-free?
Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.
Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.
before 1971 America was promising other governments that they could turn in their dollars and get gold, that means the dollar was backed by gold and was not fiat (or at least so it was claimed).
Nixon even said he was suspending the convertibility to gold only temporarily, of course today we know it was just another lie and the temporary is permanent.
the military is funded by the government, the government has been running deficits consistently for 15 years at least.
whats a deficit? it means it wastes more money than it gets in from taxing (robbing) the local population.
where does the difference come from? from selling government bonds of which the biggest buyers used to be the Chinese followed by the Japanese.
these bonds have to be repaid with interest, hence they are exactly the same as a loan no matter how you spin it.
of course these days the biggest buyer of bonds is the federal reserve, who just buys them with printed money (purchasing power stolen from everyone else), because no one else is willing to continue loaning real unprinted dollars to America who they suspect has become the biggest deadbeat in the history of the world.
as far as i can tell banks were always a fraudulent industry.
in the past they only ran a fractional reserve racket, today they simply have a printing press and can print the reserves too.
Nixon even said he was suspending the convertibility to gold only temporarily, of course today we know it was just another lie and the temporary is permanent.
the military is funded by the government, the government has been running deficits consistently for 15 years at least.
whats a deficit? it means it wastes more money than it gets in from taxing (robbing) the local population.
where does the difference come from? from selling government bonds of which the biggest buyers used to be the Chinese followed by the Japanese.
these bonds have to be repaid with interest, hence they are exactly the same as a loan no matter how you spin it.
of course these days the biggest buyer of bonds is the federal reserve, who just buys them with printed money (purchasing power stolen from everyone else), because no one else is willing to continue loaning real unprinted dollars to America who they suspect has become the biggest deadbeat in the history of the world.
as far as i can tell banks were always a fraudulent industry.
in the past they only ran a fractional reserve racket, today they simply have a printing press and can print the reserves too.
I don't think you understand what "fiat" means. And the dollar today is no less convertible to gold than it was in 1970. Just who does it, and at what rate, is different.
If you buy a share of Apple stock from the market, do you think that Apple now has more capital to work with? Because I think it important that you understand that it doesn't. It is certainly true that an Apple gained capital, and you gained a share, and the indirect linkage between those events is crucial for the system, but you did not invest in Apple. In the same way, when China buys US Treasuries from the market, and I think we've established that they barely do this these days anyway, they aren't loaning anyone anything. They are purchasing an income stream created when someone else (the primary dealer banks) made the loan. But even that is wrong, because the Treasury created the loan to itself and then sold the income stream off as a bond.
You have a perversely money-centric view of things. If you think of government spending in terms of wealth (goods and services), rather than money, it may snap into place for you.
P.S. The concept of "real unprinted dollars" leaves me speechless.
ever since the dollar started being fiat paper in 71 foreigners started taking America apart, until today where it got to the point where China can pretty much buy all of it in cash.
and the American sheeple actually believe they have an army
America's army is financed by Chinese loans, without those loans the dollar would hyperinflate in a year and the war machine would grind to a halt.
the only thing insane is continuing to allow a group of people to legally print the only currency that is accepted for the payment of taxes and loaning it with interest to the public.
banks produce nothing of value and yet they are worth billions, they are parasites living off the goods produced by the real working population.
and the American sheeple actually believe they have an army
America's army is financed by Chinese loans, without those loans the dollar would hyperinflate in a year and the war machine would grind to a halt.the only thing insane is continuing to allow a group of people to legally print the only currency that is accepted for the payment of taxes and loaning it with interest to the public.
banks produce nothing of value and yet they are worth billions, they are parasites living off the goods produced by the real working population.
Virtually nothing in your post is correct.
The dollar has been fiat paper since long before 1971. What happened in 1971 was a "solution" to Triffin's Dilemma.
China's dollar holdings are off by a couple orders of magnitude from being able to "buy all of it in cash".
The military is not particularly financed by Chinese loans. In fact, China doesn't make any loans as such. What really happens is that dollars flood into China in trade for manufactured goods, and the Chinese central bank has to do something with them. In the past, they've used them to buy US Treasuries, which are essentially dollars in different packaging. Though the end result is similar, buying debt instruments on the market isn't what most people have in mind when they think of someone "making a loan".
At any rate, Chinese holdings are pretty much flat, and have been for a while now. This reflects an appetite for risk on the part of the Chinese central bank more than anything else. During times of crisis, global demand for safety rises, and treasuries do quite well, because as bad as it is in the US, it tends to be far worse elsewhere.
Banks do produce much of value. It is just hard to see that right now because their productive work is swamped by gambling and manipulation schemes. Your gripe should really be with the governments that have turned them into instruments of the state, and that shelter them from losses. It is hard to imagine an industry that wouldn't be similarly corrupt if raised in a similar environment. If your industry was given a stack of signed blank checks and told to do whatever they like so long as they don't cross a few arbitrary regulatory lines, how long do you think virtue would last?
before 1971 America was promising other governments that they could turn in their dollars and get gold, that means the dollar was backed by gold and was not fiat (or at least so it was claimed).
Nixon even said he was suspending the convertibility to gold only temporarily, of course today we know it was just another lie and the temporary is permanent.
the military is funded by the government, the government has been running deficits consistently for 15 years at least.
whats a deficit? it means it wastes more money than it gets in from taxing (robbing) the local population.
where does the difference come from? from selling government bonds of which the biggest buyers used to be the Chinese followed by the Japanese.
these bonds have to be repaid with interest, hence they are exactly the same as a loan no matter how you spin it.
of course these days the biggest buyer of bonds is the federal reserve, who just buys them with printed money (purchasing power stolen from everyone else), because no one else is willing to continue loaning real unprinted dollars to America who they suspect has become the biggest deadbeat in the history of the world.
as far as i can tell banks were always a fraudulent industry.
in the past they only ran a fractional reserve racket, today they simply have a printing press and can print the reserves too.
Never. It's impossible. The interest alone is impossible to pay, nevermind the debt.
This.
+1.
It is impossible unless all billionaires...and then some chip in.
Highly unlikely though.
The interest itself is putting them into even more debt beyond belief.
Fiat will eventually and inevitably collapse, as it has throughout all of history. Who cares if the USA pays their debts back, which they probably wont be able to since the whole system is built on accruing debt.
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