Choose safety over convenience.
Topic: Who control our bitcoins? WE do!! ☆ BANK RUN ☆ - page 2. (Read 4617 times)
Keep your bitcoins on exchanges for short durations only. The probability that the exchange would go belly up in that short duration is much lower.
Choose safety over convenience.
Choose safety over convenience.
You do, once you put it in an exchange. Look at this Q&A with Andreas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DG98FH1qlo
sadly cant find the part where he talks about exchanges but its there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DG98FH1qlo
sadly cant find the part where he talks about exchanges but its there.
If the user can withdraw it then it's real, if however the exchange starts coming up with excuses as mt.gox did like "We are having maintenance problems" or other such comments and try to delay that means somethings going on, it does require communication between the users but this is how the Bitcoin community is able to quickly oust any dodgy dealers.
It's more difficult to track the internal workings of an exchange if it's not public and there will be losses don't get me wrong, but that's what it takes to win against them. There will need to be a chunk of currency lost in order to check whether there is something wrong with the system, someone has to put money down.
It's more difficult to track the internal workings of an exchange if it's not public and there will be losses don't get me wrong, but that's what it takes to win against them. There will need to be a chunk of currency lost in order to check whether there is something wrong with the system, someone has to put money down.
Yeah, don't even bother, I did read what you wrote and I've answered your questions, you don't realise that if they did what you're claiming they're going to do they would end up being easily spotted as they have done before because the transactions wouldn't match up with anything on the blockchain and in order for the transactions to be a legitimate transfer of value in Bitcoin it has to be on the public ledger.
If you can't withdraw the money that's being transferred to and from an account on the exchange and use it out on the blockchain it's all fake, it's that simple, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies cannot so easily be used in fractional reserve systems and you're just stuck on the idea that they can.
If you can't withdraw the money that's being transferred to and from an account on the exchange and use it out on the blockchain it's all fake, it's that simple, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies cannot so easily be used in fractional reserve systems and you're just stuck on the idea that they can.
Yes, i'm still stuck with it. I'm sorry for not being able to get this, and I will understand you if u keep up in trying to educate me. But...
bitstamp know that a fraction of the coin will never be withdrawn. That's why they can act on fractional reserve, and I don't understand why you say they couldn't. I explained why " only" 2% fractional reserve means they can make a lot of money.... I really don't understand, are you saying that if a bitstamp user have 3 btc and then let'a say he buy 1 this reflects on the blockchain and you can spot it? Or do you think that there are some spots in the time when users withdraw more than 98% of the total btc funds medially deposited on bitstamp?
Let's say that now I buy 1 btc at bitstamp. How you can spot that this btc has transferred from another user and me and not simply created out of nothing?
If I withdraw they for sure will give me a real bitcoin, i'm claiming that not all the coin on bitstamp are provably real bitcoins. If u can prove it, please explain me how.
Yeah, don't even bother, I did read what you wrote and I've answered your questions, you don't realise that if they did what you're claiming they're going to do they would end up being easily spotted as they have done before because the transactions wouldn't match up with anything on the blockchain and in order for the transactions to be a legitimate transfer of value in Bitcoin it has to be on the public ledger.
If you can't withdraw the money that's being transferred to and from an account on the exchange and use it out on the blockchain it's all fake, it's that simple, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies cannot so easily be used in fractional reserve systems and you're just stuck on the idea that they can.
If you can't withdraw the money that's being transferred to and from an account on the exchange and use it out on the blockchain it's all fake, it's that simple, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies cannot so easily be used in fractional reserve systems and you're just stuck on the idea that they can.
In order for it to be a legitimate transaction it has to be on the actual blockchain, anything happening in the internal database would be fake and completely meaningless to the cryptocurrency itself. You're completely missing that this was the whole point the blockchain was created, it's a public ledger that people have to use in order to make legitimate transactions.
I think you need to go and do some reading on how the blockchain actually works before running around making doomsday comments like everybody else who doesn't understand cryptocurrencies does.
I think you need to go and do some reading on how the blockchain actually works before running around making doomsday comments like everybody else who doesn't understand cryptocurrencies does.
I think you need to go and do some reading on what I actually wrote. I am not talking about on-chain transactions, but about transactions on the exchangers: when bitcoins are exchanged between bitstamp users these transaction are not handled by the blockchain, where bitcoins remain unmoved unless some user withdraw it. I am claiming exchangers are using fractional reserve to artificially pump the number of the coins on the exchangers, not on the blockchain.
The people who have done this have immediately been caught out by the Bitcoin community, the thing is, bitcoins have a hard limit of 21 million, if exchanges ever attempted to rig their trade volume to something unrealistic they would immediately get caught, especially if they're dumb enough to post up their numbers.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
How can people know if bitstamp is operating on let's say 2% fractional reserve, if they refuse to audit?
If bitstamp operate with 102% of the BTC they currently have (" only" 2% fractional reserve) they can use a monetary multiplier of 2x, so they CAN double the money. They don't need to cash out all this money, i suppose they CAN'T cashout bitcoin, but they can in fiat, if they suppose a small fraction of deposited btc will remain offchain.
There won't be exact figures obviously, but it's easy to estimate, for instance, with mt.gox the price was going stupidly high thanks to the now nicknamed 'willy bot' ( Think I got that right ) and a bunch of people had worked out that Bitcoin's price went high because of that trading bot bumping up the price rather than it being because of any legitimate trade volume.
Also, don't forget about the blockchain, even if a company tries hard to hide it's tracks, currency can still flow from one address to another, so in the end it's just a matter of time before it's tracked down.
That's if a company is using the blockchain and not an internal database SUPPOSEDLY backed by btc somewhere on the blockchain.
In order for it to be a legitimate transaction it has to be on the actual blockchain, anything happening in the internal database would be fake and completely meaningless to the cryptocurrency itself. You're completely missing that this was the whole point the blockchain was created, it's a public ledger that people have to use in order to make legitimate transactions.
I think you need to go and do some reading on how the blockchain actually works before running around making doomsday comments like everybody else who doesn't understand cryptocurrencies does.
i think will born new trusty bank later
i beieve it willl happened
i beieve it willl happened
The people who have done this have immediately been caught out by the Bitcoin community, the thing is, bitcoins have a hard limit of 21 million, if exchanges ever attempted to rig their trade volume to something unrealistic they would immediately get caught, especially if they're dumb enough to post up their numbers.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
How can people know if bitstamp is operating on let's say 2% fractional reserve, if they refuse to audit?
If bitstamp operate with 102% of the BTC they currently have (" only" 2% fractional reserve) they can use a monetary multiplier of 2x, so they CAN double the money. They don't need to cash out all this money, i suppose they CAN'T cashout bitcoin, but they can in fiat, if they suppose a small fraction of deposited btc will remain offchain.
There won't be exact figures obviously, but it's easy to estimate, for instance, with mt.gox the price was going stupidly high thanks to the now nicknamed 'willy bot' ( Think I got that right ) and a bunch of people had worked out that Bitcoin's price went high because of that trading bot bumping up the price rather than it being because of any legitimate trade volume.
Also, don't forget about the blockchain, even if a company tries hard to hide it's tracks, currency can still flow from one address to another, so in the end it's just a matter of time before it's tracked down.
That's if a company is using the blockchain and not an internal database SUPPOSEDLY backed by btc somewhere on the blockchain.
The people who have done this have immediately been caught out by the Bitcoin community, the thing is, bitcoins have a hard limit of 21 million, if exchanges ever attempted to rig their trade volume to something unrealistic they would immediately get caught, especially if they're dumb enough to post up their numbers.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
How can people know if bitstamp is operating on let's say 2% fractional reserve, if they refuse to audit?
If bitstamp operate with 102% of the BTC they currently have (" only" 2% fractional reserve) they can use a monetary multiplier of 2x, so they CAN double the money. They don't need to cash out all this money, i suppose they CAN'T cashout bitcoin, but they can in fiat, if they suppose a small fraction of deposited btc will remain offchain.
There won't be exact figures obviously, but it's easy to estimate, for instance, with mt.gox the price was going stupidly high thanks to the now nicknamed 'willy bot' ( Think I got that right ) and a bunch of people had worked out that Bitcoin's price went high because of that trading bot bumping up the price rather than it being because of any legitimate trade volume.
Also, don't forget about the blockchain, even if a company tries hard to hide it's tracks, currency can still flow from one address to another, so in the end it's just a matter of time before it's tracked down.
Exchanges are like banks, they always have the possibility to use FRB. since the fake coins comes from their database, not from the cold storage, an audit of the cold storage will not help
Traditionally, banks using FRB is because they can offer loan to help others using those saving money that seldom moves for decades, and earn interest in the process. But nowadays in developed country, there are seldom some company desperately need loan to eagerly expand business (maybe only bitcoin mining chips company
). A bitcoin loan is totally not practical at all, then exchange's only motivation to use FRB is to manipulate the price, but that might create a panic and withdraw, I guess they don't want to start a fire on themselves
Traditionally, banks using FRB is because they can offer loan to help others using those saving money that seldom moves for decades, and earn interest in the process. But nowadays in developed country, there are seldom some company desperately need loan to eagerly expand business (maybe only bitcoin mining chips company
). A bitcoin loan is totally not practical at all, then exchange's only motivation to use FRB is to manipulate the price, but that might create a panic and withdraw, I guess they don't want to start a fire on themselvesThat's why we need an audit of ALL the money. All they need is to stop their service for an hour and deposit onchain all the money.
You are right when you say they are not loaning, but.... can't they only sell bitcoins (a very little percentage of their volume) created out of thin air and withdraw fiat?
Exchanges are like banks, they always have the possibility to use FRB. since the fake coins comes from their database, not from the cold storage, an audit of the cold storage will not help
Traditionally, banks using FRB is because they can offer loan to help others using those saving money that seldom moves for decades, and earn interest in the process. But nowadays in developed country, there are seldom some company desperately need loan to eagerly expand business (maybe only bitcoin mining chips company). A bitcoin loan is totally not practical at all, then exchange's only motivation to use FRB is to manipulate the price, but that might create a panic and withdraw, I guess they don't want to start a fire on themselves
Traditionally, banks using FRB is because they can offer loan to help others using those saving money that seldom moves for decades, and earn interest in the process. But nowadays in developed country, there are seldom some company desperately need loan to eagerly expand business (maybe only bitcoin mining chips company
). A bitcoin loan is totally not practical at all, then exchange's only motivation to use FRB is to manipulate the price, but that might create a panic and withdraw, I guess they don't want to start a fire on themselvesThe people who have done this have immediately been caught out by the Bitcoin community, the thing is, bitcoins have a hard limit of 21 million, if exchanges ever attempted to rig their trade volume to something unrealistic they would immediately get caught, especially if they're dumb enough to post up their numbers.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
How can people know if bitstamp is operating on let's say 2% fractional reserve, if they refuse to audit?
If bitstamp operate with 102% of the BTC they currently have (" only" 2% fractional reserve) they can use a monetary multiplier of 2x, so they CAN double the money. They don't need to cash out all this money, i suppose they CAN'T cashout bitcoin, but they can in fiat, if they suppose a small fraction of deposited btc will remain offchain.
The people who have done this have immediately been caught out by the Bitcoin community, the thing is, bitcoins have a hard limit of 21 million, if exchanges ever attempted to rig their trade volume to something unrealistic they would immediately get caught, especially if they're dumb enough to post up their numbers.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
Be assured that people have already thought of this and are keeping an eye on things, there will be exchanges and companies that certainly try don't get me wrong, but they are very often found out, this is partly why I'm so skeptical of the Bitcoin ETF people keep ranting about for example.
This is extremely dangerous for bitcoin, besides the price tanking because non-existent bitcoins are currently traded. More than that, letting them to do it invalidate the whole bitcoin concept, a perfect money for an untrusted network.
Not sure what you mean over there because when we trade, even if we get the levarage ratio of 1:20 (for example) the deposit on what we have with them will be used to cover our position. In other words, they will not allow us to lose more than what we pay for. And if the trade went against us, they will force sell or buy on the prevailing price, something similar to margin call.
Wrong! this is not leverage, I think that many people here are not getting what I means by fractional reserve
An audit won't be a problem unless they are operating under fractional reserve. If so, THEY ARE CREATING "FAKE" BITCOINS offchain, therefore a part of the bitcoin currently traded on exchangers does not exist.
THIS WOULD GREATLY AFFECT THE PRICE TOO, I specify it because seems that a lot of people only bother about price, because there would be more traded bitcoin than the real amount people want to sell.
This is extremely dangerous for bitcoin, besides the price tanking because non-existent bitcoins are currently traded. More than that, letting them to do it invalidate the whole bitcoin concept, a perfect money for an untrusted network.
Not sure what you mean over there because when we trade, even if we get the levarage ratio of 1:20 (for example) the deposit on what we have with them will be used to cover our position. In other words, they will not allow us to lose more than what we pay for. And if the trade went against us, they will force sell or buy on the prevailing price, something similar to margin call.
Only a fool would have more than 10% of they're crypto on an exchange. You should assume at any moment you'll lose all of it.
So in your words, whales are fools for having millions worth of value on exchanges...
But you don't mind if they pump Bitcoin 20% higher, right?
Figure out how they achieve that without having much funds on exchanges.
Only a fool would have more than 10% of they're crypto on an exchange. You should assume at any moment you'll lose all of it.
So in your words, whales are fools for having millions worth of value on exchanges...
But you don't mind if they pump Bitcoin 20% higher, right?
Figure out how they achieve that without having much funds on exchanges.
Just because they have milions on the exchange does not mean it is their entire btc holdings.
Perhaps I should rephrase though, if you have over 10% of your wealth on an exchange you are a moron.
Only a fool would have more than 10% of they're crypto on an exchange. You should assume at any moment you'll lose all of it.
So in your words, whales are fools for having millions worth of value on exchanges...
But you don't mind if they pump Bitcoin 20% higher, right?
Figure out how they achieve that without having much funds on exchanges.
I don't understand why people actually use exchanges, I don't personally use any. Not a single one has my details on. I only trade P2P for my bitcoins the way it was intended. LocalBitcoins, Bitcoin-OTC, real life... 2015 will (I hope) be the year of the launch of P2P Bitcoin exchange platforms. What I mean by this is an web-app style orderbook system like the exchanges we have now, but the trades will be peer-to-peer and no coins will be stored on any crappy little centralised website.
If you don't like it, don't use it. Money talks.
I don't use it, and I don't have to give a fuck about it (until it crashes the price of my coins of course).
EDIT:
Look at some of these upcoming alternatives to your regular bendoverforthegovernment exchanges.
https://bitsquare.io/
http://www.coinffeine.com/
If you don't like it, don't use it. Money talks.
I don't use it, and I don't have to give a fuck about it (until it crashes the price of my coins of course).
EDIT:
Look at some of these upcoming alternatives to your regular bendoverforthegovernment exchanges.
https://bitsquare.io/
http://www.coinffeine.com/
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