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Topic: Who else is tired of this shit? - page 3. (Read 4856 times)

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
April 07, 2017, 03:54:19 AM
#37
However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

Is that a problem? Litecoin and others can take over the role of payment transactions. Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency.

It can't be just a reserve currency/store of value, most investors would flee bitcoin in that case. Whales will not be able to keep the value high without greater fools.

Those who aggregate speculation and finance of other activities (e.g. exchanges, future crypto banks) will choose to hold their reserves in BTC for as long as it is the highest liquidity, least volatile, most reliable, less experimental blockchain.

Those who want to turn Bitcoin into an experimental blockchain with block size increases, on chain settlement of off chain are messing with what gives Bitcoin its value.

For example, on chain settlement of off chain can have huge spikes in settlement transaction load thus causing volatility.

I am not trying to play sides by stating this. I am stating this as a programmer with 37 years of experience and I have become reasonably knowledgeable about blockchain technology and economics in my 4 years since I entered the Bitcoin ecosystem.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
April 07, 2017, 03:36:02 AM
#36
However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

Is that a problem? Litecoin and others can take over the role of payment transactions. Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency.


It can't be just a reserve currency/store of value, most investors would flee bitcoin in that case. Whales will not be able to keep the value high without greater fools.
hero member
Activity: 680
Merit: 500
April 07, 2017, 03:26:41 AM
#35
I know it's all a big friggin' mess but you shouldn't take your life as every day is a new chapter. LTC will dive but it will have it's day in the sun again, in time. It does not need to be the end for you, I feel for you OP there are many of us in the same boat. Litecoin will come again. Charlie Lee will set you free. He will set us all free and we will rejoice. Have hope.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
April 07, 2017, 03:17:25 AM
#34
How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.

That is why we need an altcoin wherein the hodlers aren't speculating. They are using the tokens for something in which they have no desire to speculate with them.

With that wide base of transaction use which doesn't care about the exchange value, the manipulators will not be able to have much impact.

As I said, I have some ideas about how to make whales impotent. Traders won't like it, but long-term HODLers are going to love it, because it is deflationary, which is even better than Bitcoin (i.e. the coin supply will shrink forever never reaching 0).

you know traders or even greed isn't always a negative, there can be win win economic scenario's where greed and speculation is a positive driving force.

though in crypto atm i would agree many traders/manipulators are behaving like chickens without heads and going for personal profit without any thought to the entire ecosystem. however that often goes with the territory, tis just in the wild west phase atm.

Right now there is no significant rational use case for blockchains except greater fooling, gambling games, and "illegal activities" (there is a tiny bit of use as money transfer), thus the greed and selfish interest is not yet driving more productive use cases. And I agree because we are still in the Wild West phase. No one has yet produced an application of blockchains that has a broad use case other than greater fooling and Satoshi DICE offshoots.

"greater fooling" means speculation and making gains by bringing in more greater fools (otherwise it becomes a zero-sum game and most people would be losing and leave).
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1163
Where is my ring of blades...
April 07, 2017, 03:04:17 AM
#33
as a trader i like the mess and the drama  Kiss

haha, that is true!
the drama has always been good as long as you know which side you should stay on price-wise. for example a couple of hours ago F2Pool made some comments on twitter about having doubts about signaling SegWit, blah blah and that lead to me making about 15% profit on litecoin that I bought in the dip Smiley and that only took 6-7 hours.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000
April 07, 2017, 03:03:49 AM
#32
How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.

That is why we need an altcoin wherein the hodlers aren't speculating. They are using the tokens for something in which they have no desire to speculate with them.

With that wide base of transaction use which doesn't care about the exchange value, the manipulators will not be able to have much impact.

As I said, I have some ideas about how to make whales impotent. Traders won't like it, but long-term HODLers are going to love it, because it is deflationary, which is even better than Bitcoin (i.e. the coin supply will shrink forever never reaching 0).

you know traders or even greed isn't always a negative, there can be win win economic scenario's where greed and speculation is a positive driving force.

though in crypto atm i would agree many traders/manipulators are behaving like chickens without heads and going for personal profit without any thought to the entire ecosystem. however that often goes with the territory, tis just in the wild west phase atm.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
April 07, 2017, 02:57:07 AM
#31
How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.

That is why we need an altcoin wherein the hodlers aren't speculating. They are using the tokens for something in which they have no desire to speculate with them.

With that wide base of transaction use which doesn't care about the exchange value, the manipulators will not be able to have much impact.

As I said, I have some ideas about how to make whales impotent. Traders won't like it, but long-term HODLers are going to love it, because it is deflationary, which is even better than Bitcoin (i.e. the coin supply will shrink forever never reaching 0).
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1362
April 07, 2017, 02:56:30 AM
#30
Im a newbie when it comes to crypto, im still learning and there is a lot.
Which i dont understand, and probably never will. There are things
Which are just too technical for me.

But this shit which has recently been uncovered im tired of already.

I doesnt surprise me one bit, it happens every day.

I thought cryptocurrencies was very simple and straight forward.
Obviously not, there are people ready to take advantage, cheat, con and manipulate,
Busines as usual and one of the ugly human traits - it sickens me.

Would love to see the goal posts moved and the rug pulled fro under them
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000
April 07, 2017, 02:53:27 AM
#29
How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
April 07, 2017, 02:52:40 AM
#28
Readers a reminder to read the OP before voting.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000
April 07, 2017, 02:50:31 AM
#27
But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero  Lips sealed

I dont think this is an honest view that bitcoin will be zero without whales and manipulation. I think Bitcoin will still be much worth and people will still be using bitcoin. The only thing that wont happen is the sudden increase or decrease in prices of bitcoins.

lol where you around in the early gox era  Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
April 07, 2017, 02:50:27 AM
#26
Given the Chinese now know they have us by the balls, they are always manipulating the LTC markets as well. Using all this to pump up and crash the LTC price at will and taking more BTC from all of us.

the LTC manipulators aren't trying to take BTC off you

How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

It's insane to see how that chink is blatantly manipulating the market and doing insider trading with an obvious short coupled with that tweet. Then "hey, just joking, segwit continues". And now this?

https://twitter.com/f2pool_wangchun/status/850070006830292992

This guy is a troll playing with people's money. He can crash the market one tweet at a time and keep making millions from the shorts. This is a dangerous game to play when you have to show up IRL and meet investors that get fucked by your tweets.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1024
April 07, 2017, 02:46:01 AM
#25
But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero  Lips sealed

I dont think this is an honest view that bitcoin will be zero without whales and manipulation. I think Bitcoin will still be much worth and people will still be using bitcoin. The only thing that wont happen is the sudden increase or decrease in prices of bitcoins.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
April 07, 2017, 02:45:11 AM
#24
But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero  Lips sealed

Lol. So true. I had quoted your first comment already here.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000
April 07, 2017, 02:37:31 AM
#23
But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero  Lips sealed
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000
April 07, 2017, 02:33:12 AM
#22
Given the Chinese now know they have us by the balls, they are always manipulating the LTC markets as well. Using all this to pump up and crash the LTC price at will and taking more BTC from all of us.

the LTC manipulators aren't trying to take BTC off you, to many LTC traders (including myself), LTC is BTC (without the premine).

and its not about chinese, just because the largest exchanges/farms are from china doesn't mean its the chinese (i trade 99% of my trades on chinese exchanges because thats where the liquidity is, and many of the chinese mining farms are back by US/european investors).

in anycase the current rise in LTC wasn't the chinese the chinese exchanges are lagging in that massively (because the big chinese exchanges only fiat can be withdrawn your LTC/BTC is currently locked).

in summary LTC/BTC is more crossboarder then you realise, when simply crediting any one national group with any control.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000
April 07, 2017, 02:22:44 AM
#21
as a trader i like the mess and the drama  Kiss
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
April 07, 2017, 02:18:52 AM
#20
The Bitcoin network has ass cancer and its name is Jihan Wu. He has been holding back our development for years and we did't even know it.

To paraphrase Thatcher: "there's no such thing as community", and an immutable system doesn't need nor want development, and is designed to resist any breach of immutability.  What you think are political manoeuvres, is nothing else but this immutability dynamics at work.  Naive people thought that bitcoin's protocol was a centrally decided and arbitrarily modified thing in the hands of Core, which acted as the reference authority in such matters, because they were the Pope, who got the keys to the paradise from Satoshi, God Almighty.  This worked out until they tried to push modifications that would profoundly modify the economical dynamics of bitcoin with the LN ; at that point, bitcoin's immutability dynamics stopped them.  Bitcoin's immutability dynamics is simply based upon the NON-existence of a community, but on the hypothesis of decentralization: the non-collusion of diverse interests in the system, not being able to agree over change that would give advantages to some and disadvantages to others.  In other words, decentralization makes as a basic assumption that there's no such thing as a colluding community, but results in immutability of history and protocol, because the diverse entities making up the ecosystem cannot come to a consensus over change, so de facto, they come to consensus over no change: immutability.

When looking at the trees, and not seeing the forest, this comes down to seeing "political disputes and hidden agendas".  But that's exactly what decentralisation is about: non-collusion !

+1

In the case of Bitcoin, Nash designed such that the whales have a crab bucket mentality w.r.t. any one whale being able to mutate the protocol and thus get an advantage over any other whale.

But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

Can whales threaten your Internet? Do you wake up every morning to fight for the future of the Internet. No. You just use it and expect it to work and it works.




and an immutable system doesn't need nor want development, and is designed to resist any breach of immutability.  

Except when there exists overwhelming consensus to enact changes, that is.

I am actually going to agree with you 100%. One such example would be quantum resistant protocol changes. That would focus minds.

Overwhelming consensus only exists on those things which benefit everyone pretty much equally, which was precisely the point that @dinofelis and I made about the game theory of PoW being crab bucket mentality.

And that is why you'll never see any consensus on block size or SegWit, other than to defend the status quo which is the Schelling point of the whales (i.e. pull everyone back into the crab bucket so nobody gets an "unfair" advantage).

Schelling point. Learn it.
newbie
Activity: 17
Merit: 0
April 07, 2017, 02:07:35 AM
#19
Let's make it clear that I don't want to hold LTC. I don't have many good choices right now for stability, so I had to choose something which might get payment scaling which might be considered good quality. What are my options? ETH? DASH? Come on. I hate all this shit. Bitcoin is becoming dominated by whales as the math insures it will. Yeah they have an incentive to protect the immutability of the protocol, but that does nothing to enable the knowledge age and bring value to us common men. And they are making the fucking ecosystem such a mess that it gives everybody a headache.

The entire ecosystem is about speculation poker. And robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And the manipulations are getting more and more bizarre. Mt. Gox was just a walk in the park compared to the sophistication of deceit being employed now.

Well said.  We're all standing in a cesspit of shitty cryptocurrencies being pushed by con-artists, whales, sociopaths and criminals.  It is a microcosm of Wall Street.  The sooner a Bitcoin killer comes along, the better.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
April 07, 2017, 12:43:14 AM
#18
Many of the so called Bitcoin maximalists are actually hypocrites who are secretly planning their own altcoin or already invested in one. So they use Bitcoin maximalism to attack anyone who shills an altcoin which isn't theirs, or if theirs is not yet a reality.

There are many levels of manipulation going on. Everyone is trying to manipulate. Everyone thinks they have some plan to get rich.

Just a reality we shouldn't pretend doesn't exist.

Bitcoin maximalist is yet another obfuscation of the real economic motivations. So many things are not what they seem to be.




Regards to the topic and Nash Equilibrium reminds me his criticism to Adam Smith theory about the 'individual ambition' ;-)

Agreed the murdered John Nash (aka Satoshi) is correct that we should not fight over the blonde, because we maximize our individual strategies in that case with a group strategy.

In the case of Bitcoin, Nash designed such that the whales have a crab bucket mentality w.r.t. any one whale being able to mutate the protocol and thus get an advantage over any other whale.

But I posit the mistake he made, is that I've shown the math that PoW eventually centralizes into one whale (or colluding set of whales) who can then at the point change the protocol and fuck over everyone else. Analogously, if one person was able to mathematically monopolize the blonde, he could force everyone else to take a second pick.

Game theory is complex. And Nash can make mistakes. He isn't perfect. Or perhaps Nash was just the symbolic face of Satoshi and not the one who made the actual PoW design.



Where does Nash state that asymptotic ideal money is where there are multiple competing currencies at one time? Thats not at all what I vot from reading his stuff.

In the section called "currencies in competition":

Quote from: John Nash aka Satoshi
So here is the possibility of "asymptotically Ideal Money". Starting with the idea of value stabilization in relation to a domestic price index associated with the territory of one state, beyond that there is the natural and logical concept of internationally based comparisons.  The currencies being compared, like now the euro, the dollar, the yen, the pound, the swiss franc, the swedish kronor, etc. can be viewed with critical eyes by their users and by those who maybe have the option of whether or not or how to use one of them. This can lead to pressure for good quality and consequently for a lessened rate of inflationary deprecation in value.

So then you understand that Nash would have only made Bitcoin so that it could be forked and modified so there are many competing currencies which users can judge which one is the most stable and has the least corruption and manipulation.

Satoshi wanted altcoins.
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