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Topic: Why are people scared of taxes? - page 27. (Read 31541 times)

legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
October 25, 2012, 02:40:08 PM
If threatening to kill someone is immoral, why is using that threat moral when "required by law"?
No law in my country will threaten to kill anyone.  In fact the most common reason for people getting political asylum in most of Europe is a death penalty, or a real threat of a death penalty, in their home countries.  Only a handful countries still practice death penalty, and I have no plans to go there.

And I'm still not answering your silly hypothetical questions with no base in modern reality.  Go back in time and ask me then, or whatever.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
October 25, 2012, 02:37:56 PM
So you're in favor of hobbling the military?

You miss - intentionally, I think - the point. I say again, What happens if you don't want to go to prison for not paying taxes?

Obviously, if you resist arrest, you will be compelled to go, not shot on sight.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
October 25, 2012, 02:36:29 PM
So you're in favor of hobbling the military?

You miss - intentionally, I think - the point. I say again, What happens if you don't want to go to prison for not paying taxes?
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
October 25, 2012, 02:33:06 PM
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

Is the government threatening to kill you? Not at all. If you fail to pay taxes, they will politely ask you to pay up, and if you don't, they will imprison you.

They have exempted themselves from all "gun control" laws and have all lethal weapons imaginable at their disposal, and use them with impunity. "Not at all" my ass.

So you're in favor of hobbling the military?
I'm against military expansion, but I want anyone out there in the field to have anything that they need to keep themselves alive.
If they're willing to die for their country, they deserve that much.

Also, the government has smallpox. Do they threaten to use that on you if you fail to pay taxes?
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1032
RIP Mommy
October 25, 2012, 02:30:41 PM
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

Is the government threatening to kill you? Not at all. If you fail to pay taxes, they will politely ask you to pay up, and if you don't, they will imprison you.

They have exempted themselves from all "gun control" laws and have all lethal weapons imaginable at their disposal, and use them with impunity (which means never worrying about being imprisoned, let alone prosecuted, for murder, civil rights violations resulting in death). "Not at all", my ass.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
October 25, 2012, 02:26:29 PM
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

Is the government threatening to kill you? Not at all. If you fail to pay taxes, they will politely ask you to pay up, and if you don't, they will imprison you.

And if you don't want to go?
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
October 25, 2012, 02:25:42 PM
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

Is the government threatening to kill you? Not at all. If you fail to pay taxes, they will politely ask you to pay up, and if you don't, they will imprison you.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1032
RIP Mommy
October 25, 2012, 02:25:34 PM
The tax discussion has diverged into some pointless question asking about morality, like it had anything to do with it.  Countries have the right to tax their land and inhabitants.  It is the foundation of human civilization.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

"The three aims of the tyrant are, one, the humiliation of his subjects; he knows that a mean-spirited man will not conspire against anybody; two, the creation of mistrust among them; for a tyrant is not to be overthrown until men begin to have confidence in one another -- and this is the reason why tyrants are at war with the good; they are under the idea that their power is endangered by them, not only because they will not be ruled despotically, but also because they are too loyal to one another and to other men, and do not inform against one another or against other men -- three, the tyrant desires that all his subjects shall be incapable of action, for no one attempts what is impossible and they will not attempt to overthrow a tyranny if they are powerless."

-- Aristotle
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
October 25, 2012, 02:23:15 PM
Countries have the right to tax their land and inhabitants.

This is a statement that taxation is moral. That is the point of this discussion.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
October 25, 2012, 02:20:06 PM
If something can be both moral in immoral at the same time, that's pretty much the end of this. Since if you say X is immoral, that means nothing. It's a null statement.
I still don't get the point of this discussion.  The tax discussion has diverged into some pointless question asking about morality, like it had anything to do with it.  Countries have the right to tax their land and inhabitants.  It is the foundation of human civilization.  No less.  For good and evil.  Without there would either be no nations or no freedom (North Korea is the only completely tax free nation I know of).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
October 25, 2012, 01:45:35 PM
Would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

No, threatening to kill someone is immoral. 

Awesome, thank you for a straight answer for a change.

Now, how do you reconcile that with this statement?

When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!

If threatening to kill someone is immoral, why is using that threat moral when "required by law"?

And (here's a real-world - if defunct - example) would being required to allow your wife to be raped by the local lord on the first night of your marriage also be moral, if required by law?
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
October 25, 2012, 01:36:29 PM
If something can be both moral in immoral at the same time, that's pretty much the end of this. Since if you say X is immoral, that means nothing. It's a null statement.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
October 25, 2012, 01:31:58 PM
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?
If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

No, threatening to kill someone is immoral.  And illegal.  Threatening to kill someone can get you in prison for up to three years in my country.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
October 25, 2012, 01:07:26 PM
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
October 25, 2012, 01:02:07 PM
Quote
Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?
I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 
Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?
When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!  It would be immoral not to pay in the first place.
So what you're saying is, basically, this?
Haha, no.

Quote
I wasn't asking about law. I was asking about morality. Is taking money by force or intimidation moral, or immoral? It cannot be both.
Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

Could you please just tell me what you try to achieve by repeating questions?  You keep asking the same over and over, until you get an answer you can quote out of context and change the meaning of to prove something for yourself.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
October 25, 2012, 12:55:20 PM
2. Laws are created by people, and cannot violate the constitution.

Admit it. You just wrote that for the lulz.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
October 25, 2012, 12:36:16 PM
Quote
Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?
I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 
Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?
When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!  It would be immoral not to pay in the first place.

So what you're saying is, basically, this?

I wasn't asking about law. I was asking about morality. Is taking money by force or intimidation moral, or immoral? It cannot be both.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
October 25, 2012, 12:33:03 PM
Quote
Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?
I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 
Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?
When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!  It would be immoral not to pay in the first place.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
October 25, 2012, 12:13:55 PM
Quote
Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?
I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples.  

Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?

Also the laws suggesting corporations must place profit maximization over anything else. Most of these things end up being done with one or two layers of abstraction because it confuses people. To clarify, I think this is natural selection at work, not some plan.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
October 25, 2012, 12:04:38 PM
Quote
Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?
I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 

Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?
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