'land of the free'
The USA is a fascistic, totalitarian dystopia with good PR.Just getting my dictionary out
Topic: Why are some international payment companies not allowing Americans to join? - page 3. (Read 5875 times)
October 11, 2013, 11:36:50 PM
Just getting my dictionary out
October 11, 2013, 11:35:55 PM
...
I feel for US citizens, but the companies that are shutting their doors to the US are not been given many other options.
It is also a worry that if bitcoin continues to grow, the US will find itself getting left behind... and that's not a position the US is use to being in!
I feel for US citizens, but the companies that are shutting their doors to the US are not been given many other options.
It is also a worry that if bitcoin continues to grow, the US will find itself getting left behind... and that's not a position the US is use to being in!
As someone so effected, thanks. I would point out, however, that depending one how one looks at it, Americans are not necessarily being left behind. Firstly, a lot of the currency base is held by Americans currently. Secondly, it has been and remains more straightforward to buy BTC than to sell them. I personally would have fewer BTC than I do were it more straightforward to unload them.
Relateldly, being Bitcoin-friendly might be a really effective way for a nation or region to boost tourism, particularly if the values continue to climb. I've been meaning to take a trip to Europe one of these day, and I'll very likely be putting big red circles around places where I can leverage my BTC investment in an enjoyable manner. Since Bitcoin is being driven underground here in the 'land of the free', it becomes a compelling value proposition for me to spend it abroad.
I didnt mean "left behind" in that the US would become third world
More in the technology space of digital currency, as at present the obsticals to setting up a business revolving around bitcoins are hard or expensive to overcome within the current (US) regulations.
Hopefully the Bitcoin Foundation will come though for the US citizens and prove that "the government" can still keep on top of crime without having to cripple new technologies.
I have not look too hard, but there is a lack of places to spend bitcoins in Europe too!
(To be honest i dont see bitcoin having the potential to replace cash anyhow, cash works fine, it is the banks that don't. I do however see that it [bitcoin] has major potential within the technology and online world, as cash has to be digitised in order to spend online, yet bitcoin does not (amongst other clear advantages)).
(im working on "a way" for bitcoiners to spend some coins, but i too have problems that if i offer some of these services to the US, i may also be in breach of some of the regulations (yet i am law abiding and would like to abide by the rules as i would be doing within the UK). i may find a compromise yet though, so i dont have to bar 300 million (mostly) good people form new technology)....
October 11, 2013, 11:33:04 PM
'land of the free'
The USA is a fascistic, totalitarian dystopia with good PR. October 11, 2013, 11:18:30 PM
...
I feel for US citizens, but the companies that are shutting their doors to the US are not been given many other options.
It is also a worry that if bitcoin continues to grow, the US will find itself getting left behind... and that's not a position the US is use to being in!
I feel for US citizens, but the companies that are shutting their doors to the US are not been given many other options.
It is also a worry that if bitcoin continues to grow, the US will find itself getting left behind... and that's not a position the US is use to being in!
As someone so effected, thanks. I would point out, however, that depending one how one looks at it, Americans are not necessarily being left behind. Firstly, a lot of the currency base is held by Americans currently. Secondly, it has been and remains more straightforward to buy BTC than to sell them. I personally would have fewer BTC than I do were it more straightforward to unload them.
Relateldly, being Bitcoin-friendly might be a really effective way for a nation or region to boost tourism, particularly if the values continue to climb. I've been meaning to take a trip to Europe one of these day, and I'll very likely be putting big red circles around places where I can leverage my BTC investment in an enjoyable manner. Since Bitcoin is being driven underground here in the 'land of the free', it becomes a compelling value proposition for me to spend it abroad.
October 11, 2013, 11:06:24 PM
Not allowing Americans to join? Not allowing Americans to join? Let's go kick their ass!
Team America World Police - Fuck Yeah!
Team America World Police - Fuck Yeah!
You know, I didn't know that...too funny.
LMAO this is fucking briliant!
October 11, 2013, 10:54:25 PM
The point I wanted to make is that if the company doesn't want to follow US guidelines, it simply can ignore their requests. Don't punish the customers because some far away government is being a cry baby.
that's not true! you would think the laws could be ignored, but reality is, if you do they will come after you!
I dont disagree with the USA trying to tackle crime and criminals.
But when 99.9% of the people effected are law abiding, and just trying to run an honest business, other ways of tackling the crime needs to be found.
It is not right to punish the majority owning to actions of a minority.
I feel for US citizens, but the companies that are shutting their doors to the US are not been given many other options.
It is also a worry that if bitcoin continues to grow, the US will find itself getting left behind... and that's not a position the US is use to being in!
October 11, 2013, 02:49:52 PM
I think it most probable that significant and blatant capital controls will be deemed necessary in the US at some point. The likelihood is strong enough so that it would be prudent to develop and maintain a set of solutions which could facilitate such capital controls at the flip of a switch.
Coincidental to this, the established financial services institutions are skimming a high percentage of transactions and making a lot of money doing so. I think it strongly likely that they are participating in the shaping of regulatory policies to protect their turf. The political system of the U.S. government at this time is such that most laws and regulations are literally written by corporations through their investments in lobbyists. It is hardly surprising that such regulations favor large and established corporate interests.
Whatever the causes, this whole set of market disruption systems is highly annoying to me as someone who has involvement as a speculator with Bitcoin but has no criminal exposure and no real problem with paying my taxes. I am still being inconvenienced by this framework of control policies.
October 11, 2013, 01:58:50 PM
The point I wanted to make is that if the company doesn't want to follow US guidelines, it simply can ignore their requests. Don't punish the customers because some far away government is being a cry baby.
June 29, 2013, 03:52:12 PM
I tried to sign up for several payment companies so I could fund my BTC-e account, and each one said that US Citizens accounts will be deleted.
Why are international companies doing this?
Is the US Government trying to disrupt the movement of money?
Why are international companies doing this?
Is the US Government trying to disrupt the movement of money?
Out of all the replies I read on this thread, no one has answered correctly. The reason online payment companies like Neteller do not allow US citizens is because the law in US is greatly different then the rest of the world.
US has recently passed a bill requiring all online payment processors including paypal to verify every individual that uses the service in order to extort IRS money out of you.
It's not about IRS - it's about money laundering, as I correctly stated.
June 29, 2013, 03:50:24 PM
Not allowing Americans to join? Not allowing Americans to join? Let's go kick their ass!
Team America World Police - Fuck Yeah!
Team America World Police - Fuck Yeah!
You know, I didn't know that...too funny.
June 29, 2013, 03:07:52 PM
If you that's annoying for people who live in the USA, try being a US citizen who moves abroad and also has your account terminated:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/US_expats_feel_the_burden_of_FATCA.html?cid=35932576
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/US_expats_feel_the_burden_of_FATCA.html?cid=35932576
The poor bastards can't even renounce their citizenship to avoid the great tax nazi. http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
It's those dammed burn marks they use to tag there cattle, no way to get rid of it. Good thing they use ear rings in side European union at least those can be changed with a compatible model.
June 29, 2013, 10:44:00 AM
I tried to sign up for several payment companies so I could fund my BTC-e account, and each one said that US Citizens accounts will be deleted.
Why are international companies doing this?
Is the US Government trying to disrupt the movement of money?
Why are international companies doing this?
Is the US Government trying to disrupt the movement of money?
Out of all the replies I read on this thread, no one has answered correctly. The reason online payment companies like Neteller do not allow US citizens is because the law in US is greatly different then the rest of the world.
US has recently passed a bill requiring all online payment processors including paypal to verify every individual that uses the service in order to extort IRS money out of you.
June 29, 2013, 10:28:17 AM
If you that's annoying for people who live in the USA, try being a US citizen who moves abroad and also has your account terminated:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/US_expats_feel_the_burden_of_FATCA.html?cid=35932576
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/US_expats_feel_the_burden_of_FATCA.html?cid=35932576
The poor bastards can't even renounce their citizenship to avoid the great tax nazi. http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
June 29, 2013, 10:15:16 AM
It may have to do with things like FATCA and FBAR.
There's good reads here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/
There's good reads here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/
June 29, 2013, 10:07:24 AM
If you that's annoying for people who live in the USA, try being a US citizen who moves abroad and also has your account terminated:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/US_expats_feel_the_burden_of_FATCA.html?cid=35932576
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/US_expats_feel_the_burden_of_FATCA.html?cid=35932576
June 29, 2013, 04:21:56 AM
I tried to sign up for several payment companies so I could fund my BTC-e account, and each one said that US Citizens accounts will be deleted.
Why are international companies doing this?
Is the US Government trying to disrupt the movement of money?
Why are international companies doing this?
Is the US Government trying to disrupt the movement of money?
Generally the US has higher standards and hassles companies that dont meet their requirements.
Its more of a risk to take on American accounts in this case, but America is also a very rich nation so these orgs must weight the tradeoffs.
June 29, 2013, 04:04:19 AM
You can say whatever you want and criticize the United States, but this is the Only country in the world that have such a policy against worldwide Cyber Crime ...
Patzek, you are a little confused. Money laundering is not cyber crime. It is an attempt to prevent governments from tracking your finances. Of course, the purposes of the finances might be criminal, but money laundering itself has no victims.
You're right of course, but to the government eyes this is a grey area, between Cyber Crime and Crypto-currency.
What I meant, is that like in Cyber Crime, the US will go after those who affects the US.
It is very easy to seperate the two if you fully understands this world.
In their world, it is almost the same.
Cyber Criminals dealt with Libery Reserve. They used their Botnets to mine Bitcoins from zombie pc's, they laundered this money by going off-and-on from Libery to BTC, Perfectmoney Webmoney and what not.
Cyber Criminals purchased their tools using Liberty Reserve, now Bitcoin & Perfect Money.
This is all connected in the end, to our eyes its different, not to them.
The people in the FBI who handle Botnets \ organizations like Liberty reserve, probably sitting in adjoining offices, if not in the same.
June 29, 2013, 03:54:28 AM
You can say whatever you want and criticize the United States, but this is the Only country in the world that have such a policy against worldwide Cyber Crime ...
Patzek, you are a little confused. Money laundering is not cyber crime. It is an attempt to prevent governments from tracking your finances. Of course, the purposes of the finances might be criminal, but money laundering itself has no victims.
June 29, 2013, 03:48:51 AM
There's the question of Jurisdiction. Unless the international company has accounts in the US, they cant touch them.
This simply isn't true. Among other things, the US now requires foreign investments by US citizens to be reported to the IRS by the companies where they're held. A lot of foreign financial service providers have decided that the cost of compliance isn't worth the hassle and that declining to have US customers is the best way of avoiding having to comply with what effectively amount to US laws with extra-territorial reach.
Because so many nations are FATF members and they agree to operate within the FATF framework, there are very real risks of sanctions by other members if they just ignore things related to financial crime (and tax evasion is a financial crime). Once those sanctions are imposed, it becomes very difficult for individuals and businesses to transact with the outside world as their financial institutions get blacklisted.
June 29, 2013, 03:46:02 AM
You can say whatever you want and criticize the United States, but this is the Only country in the world that have such a policy against worldwide Cyber Crime and actually DO something!
It may be uncomfortable to US citizens, but the government is sure doing what it suppose to do, and going all over the world to accomplish its goals.
Liberty Reserve, as easy as it was to use for 7 years, was a well-built laundering machine. Not everyone used it to criminal \ 'grey' activity, but sure a whole lot did.
The US have a clear policy, they will go after everyone everywhere who has a connection to US citizens \ bussineses.
This policy affects their treatments of exchangers as well as cyber criminals who operate Botnets around the world.
Botnets who has not affected US citizens, will not be touched by the FBI.
That is why exchangers now do not deal with US citizens, its not only get them off the radar, it prevents the radar of the US to even consider it. the FBI does not have infinite resources to deal with every illegal bussiness who does not affect US citizens.
That is, untill the UN will establish something similar to fight it worldwide.
It may be uncomfortable to US citizens, but the government is sure doing what it suppose to do, and going all over the world to accomplish its goals.
Liberty Reserve, as easy as it was to use for 7 years, was a well-built laundering machine. Not everyone used it to criminal \ 'grey' activity, but sure a whole lot did.
The US have a clear policy, they will go after everyone everywhere who has a connection to US citizens \ bussineses.
This policy affects their treatments of exchangers as well as cyber criminals who operate Botnets around the world.
Botnets who has not affected US citizens, will not be touched by the FBI.
That is why exchangers now do not deal with US citizens, its not only get them off the radar, it prevents the radar of the US to even consider it. the FBI does not have infinite resources to deal with every illegal bussiness who does not affect US citizens.
That is, untill the UN will establish something similar to fight it worldwide.
Jump to: