Why blockchains might want to consider using AT "Turing complete" txs - page 3.

gmaxwell

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on October 28, 2014, 04:07:12 PM

Doesn't splitting every operation into micro-operations and feeding the result to the VM solve the issue?

For simplistic implementations, yes (though you have to get it right). High performance ones... not really. For high performance you really want to hoist the boundary checking.

I'm not sure what advantage this system really offers over Moxie... as moxie is deployed and has toolchain support.

In general, I worry that this kind of system is too low level for a consensus system-- e.g. getting high performance will require dangerous complex execution enviroments; but it's an interesting domain. It also has no facility for dead code elimination, or other facilities which are more obvious when you understand the difference between with script does in a consensus system... that it's not really performing computation, but verification of computation.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: gmaxwell on October 28, 2014, 02:43:56 PM

Kind of annoying that this has every instruction taking memory operands directly, instead of a load/store architecture like Moxie. This makes it much harder to write a secure virtual machine, since you need to make sure there are boundary checking in many places instead of just two.

Doesn't splitting every operation into micro-operations and feeding the result to the VM solve the issue?

gmaxwell

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Kind of annoying that this has every instruction taking memory operands directly, instead of a load/store architecture like Moxie. This makes it much harder to write a secure virtual machine, since you need to make sure there are boundary checking in many places instead of just two.

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

For those wondering I have read the "side chains" PDF and there is absolutely no reason why they can't use AT (so AT will have the benefit of being able to be portable across *all chains* which no other current "Turing complete" proposal is so far promising).

I noted also that the "atomic cross chain transfer" that they document follows *the exact the same process* as the AT that will be provided shortly by CIYAM for this purpose (which might be helpful for those that might be skeptical that this "use case" can be achieved).

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Thanks and to be quite clear CIYAM is not interested in IPOs or the likes and AT is available for every blockchain that wants to use it absolutely *free of charge*. Those that pay attention to the details will notice it is MIT licensed just like Bitcoin is.

Not only is there a bounty set up to get an open source version of the AT API that works on a Bitcoin clone but I have also offered my personal assistance with those who are interested to achieve the goal of performing atomic cross-chain transfers between blockchains (and I won't be accepting any assets or alt coins for such assistance).

To make it even easier the actual AT machine code to *do* the atomic cross-chain transfer is being constructed in the bounty topic: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9311209 (I expect it'll be completed well before anyone has an AT API ready to test it).

jabo38

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mining is so 2012-2013

Quote from: Daedelus on October 20, 2014, 10:10:53 AM

Quote from: justusranvier on October 20, 2014, 10:09:24 AM

Quote from: Spoetnik on October 18, 2014, 08:18:27 AM

Quote from: vbcs on October 13, 2014, 03:18:10 PM

That's up to you to decide. We mostly care for the tech

and we believe any coin should have this functionality.

Later steps (not very soon) on this huge project will be to create a c based compiler for translating high level languages into AT code, so anyone without *machine code* knowledge can easily create programs.

Also we are going to release a new coin with a new proof ( at some point in the future, to fully exploit the power of AT), and we also want to integrate it to a btc based blockchain.

good luck on the IPO Roll Eyes

Just what the world needs - more ~~scam~~appcoins.

Quoted for future reference .

This thread...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9262650

... is currently THE BEST thread for examples of sneering, condescending replies while simultaneously being oblivious to outing themselves as completely ignorant of all but a tiny part of crypto development... just like the example above.

AT isn't a coin. It is everything you want in Ethereum (Turing Complete, but based in machine code and soon to be in C++ so accessible to thousands right off the bat) but you don't have to wait as it is here today. It could built into BTC (though not likely in this decade from the pace of development there). Implementation in BTC/LTC clones are planned I believe. This is breaking down barriers between different blockchains.

Let's see how much of a scam AT is in a year.... Cheesy

As far as I am concerned AT is the real deal. No obvious pump and dump get rich scheme from CIYAM. It is open sourced and anyone can add it that wants to without giving him a cent. The only thing it will do is make their coin more robust and capable.

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Note that the bounty has been upped to 10 BTC now and that the AT API document has now been published (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9310030).

All current AT documentation can of course be found here: http://ciyam.org/at

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: pa on October 22, 2014, 05:39:21 PM

Is AT compatible with CryptoNote coins like Monero (XMR)?

It should be no harder to build AT into a CryptoNote system than any other blockchain (and I don't believe it is a huge task to do so).

pa

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Is AT compatible with CryptoNote coins like Monero (XMR)?

vbcs

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AT - Automated Transactions - CIYAM Developer

The new API is almost ready and is the key point to enable the generalization of the AT to easily be adopted to any blockchain, thus enabling the cross-chain tx's, which will be our main focus when is ready. So feel free to ask the integration of the AT to your platform ( both me and Ciyam will help on that) , and becoming one of the first platforms enabling the atomic cross-chain tx's. (we are looking for btc based platforms as stated to Ciyams post's)

Edit: Furthermore, besides the atomic cross-chain tx's, the AT will enable turing complete programs to be deployed and run on the blockchain. It already does (!) succesfully on a testnet. ( http://5.196.1.215:5876/ATs.html )

theblacksquid

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BUMP

Being more of a python guy, I hope to see a python implementation of this (or I'l just hack one up, assuming I find the time to learn C++).

Good luck!!!

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: justusranvier on October 20, 2014, 12:29:59 PM

You're assuming that "different blockchains" is a viable concept that's sustainable in the long term.

I know many people are wishing very hard for this to be the case, but economics doesn't care about how hard people wish...

The point that AT is about is that it is *blockchain* agnostic (i.e. it doesn't care which blockchain you use).

If we end up with *only one* then AT *still works* so I don't quite get your point (*economics* is not going to *get rid of AT* for some unspecified reason when I've just pointed out that multiple blockchains are not *essential* for AT).

justusranvier

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Quote from: Daedelus on October 20, 2014, 10:10:53 AM

This is breaking down barriers between different blockchains.

Let's see how much of a scam AT is in a year.... Cheesy

You're assuming that "different blockchains" is a viable concept that's sustainable in the long term.

I know many people are wishing very hard for this to be the case, but economics doesn't care about how hard people wish...

vbcs

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AT - Automated Transactions - CIYAM Developer

Hey,

I am honoured to say that the testnet is on from Sunday and till now is working fine. We found some minor issues that are going to be fixed and when we have a more tested version the testnet will be available for anyone to use and test it. Till we reach that point, we would like to keep it smaller, for easier managment on updates/fixes.

But as you can see the "proof of concept" works perfectly. The AT core works perfectly from time zero, and only some fixes regarding the API calls the AT is making to the platforms core.

So here ( http://5.196.1.215:5876/ATs.html , thanks dude for the VPS) you can see the first AT turing complete programs "surfing" the blockchain. Cheesy

Enjoy!

Daedelus

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Quote from: justusranvier on October 20, 2014, 10:09:24 AM

Quote from: Spoetnik on October 18, 2014, 08:18:27 AM

Quote from: vbcs on October 13, 2014, 03:18:10 PM

That's up to you to decide. We mostly care for the tech

and we believe any coin should have this functionality.

Later steps (not very soon) on this huge project will be to create a c based compiler for translating high level languages into AT code, so anyone without *machine code* knowledge can easily create programs.

Also we are going to release a new coin with a new proof ( at some point in the future, to fully exploit the power of AT), and we also want to integrate it to a btc based blockchain.

good luck on the IPO Roll Eyes

Just what the world needs - more ~~scam~~appcoins.

Quoted for future reference .

This thread...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9262650

... is currently THE BEST thread for examples of sneering, condescending replies while simultaneously being oblivious to outing themselves as completely ignorant of all but a tiny part of crypto development... just like the example above.

AT isn't a coin. It is everything you want in Ethereum (Turing Complete, but based in machine code and soon to be in C++ so accessible to thousands right off the bat) but you don't have to wait as it is here today. It could built into BTC (though not likely in this decade from the pace of development there). Implementation in BTC/LTC clones are planned I believe. This is breaking down barriers between different blockchains.

Let's see how much of a scam AT is in a year.... Cheesy

justusranvier

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Quote from: Spoetnik on October 18, 2014, 08:18:27 AM

Quote from: vbcs on October 13, 2014, 03:18:10 PM

That's up to you to decide. We mostly care for the tech

and we believe any coin should have this functionality.

Later steps (not very soon) on this huge project will be to create a c based compiler for translating high level languages into AT code, so anyone without *machine code* knowledge can easily create programs.

Also we are going to release a new coin with a new proof ( at some point in the future, to fully exploit the power of AT), and we also want to integrate it to a btc based blockchain.

good luck on the IPO Roll Eyes

Just what the world needs - more ~~scam~~appcoins.

Come-from-Beyond

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Newbie

This thread deserves much more attention but it was buried under usual BitcoinTalk trash...

Bump.

Spoetnik

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FUD Philanthropist™

Quote from: vbcs on October 13, 2014, 03:18:10 PM

That's up to you to decide. We mostly care for the tech

and we believe any coin should have this functionality.

Later steps (not very soon) on this huge project will be to create a c based compiler for translating high level languages into AT code, so anyone without *machine code* knowledge can easily create programs.

Also we are going to release a new coin with a new proof ( at some point in the future, to fully exploit the power of AT), and we also want to integrate it to a btc based blockchain.

good luck on the IPO Roll Eyes

Eadeqa

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Quote from: wizzardTim on October 16, 2014, 06:27:44 AM

Quote from: Istanbul34 on October 16, 2014, 04:38:17 AM

This will be released at the NXT testnet first in the coming days right?

I don't know if it will be part of the NXT testnet, since it won't be integrated into NXT, correct me if I am wrong. It will initially be implemented in the core of Qora, making it the first world-wide AT integration.

It's already working on testnet with Nxt

Quote

The testnet is ready , and the usecases lottery, dormant and auction have been tested. I will release the testnet tomorrow where i could be all day home providing fixes when needed.

CIYAM

legendary

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

It does not involve Oracles at all (at least for now).

The key is that AT API functions need to be O( log N ) to make sure an AT can't *clog up the works* (we may allow slower functions that cost more fees to execute down the track).

Each AT has its own memory blocks (code and data) which are fixed in size when the AT is created.

Topic: Why blockchains might want to consider using AT "Turing complete" txs - page 3. (Read 21614 times)