Pages:
Author

Topic: Why blockchains might want to consider using AT "Turing complete" txs - page 4. (Read 21682 times)

legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
Would this simply be a linked into reindexing the blockchain? You would only need to reindex/re-execute AT on the transactions in your wallet in that case right?

The key point is that all ATs would need to be *restored* to the previous state they had at the point of the re-org (and then re-executed).


Thanks,

Just to be clear, this is network based and not oracle based right (not an n of m signers trust model?)...

If it is completely trustless then how can you deterministically execute scripts within known times as per spec:

"It can be expected that over time an increasing number of ATs will be created so the cost for running AT code
must be kept to an absolute minimum. This will require AT code to be deterministic, and that its instructions
must not be able to take arbitrary amounts of time. This will limit the set of API functions accessible to an
AT to only those that do not require arbitrary scans over the blockchain (i.e. they should be only applicable
to indexed information)."

If its network based can you have cases where AT's are running trying to access info that is not indexed on the local node it is running on?

Also just to be clear, it is allocating/checking any memory prior to execution right? So its a load/store machine rather than a two address machine?
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Would this simply be a linked into reindexing the blockchain? You would only need to reindex/re-execute AT on the transactions in your wallet in that case right?

The key point is that all ATs would need to be *restored* to the previous state they had at the point of the re-org (and then re-executed).
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
Uhhh.... okey dokey. That sounds really dangerous, because it means a blockchain re-org can change the meaning or behavior of a transaction. "There Be Dragons"

If a re-org occurs then the ATs would need to be "re-executed" (yes - we have thought of this - obviously their state cannot be retained if they are *rolled back*).

The exact mechanism for doing this would need to be worked out for each platform (i.e. how to *undo* state).


Great job CIYAM!

A question on re-org...

Would this simply be a linked into reindexing the blockchain? You would only need to reindex/re-execute AT on the transactions in your wallet in that case right?

Can there be a case where a re-org is not detectable thus causing the tx's to be incorrectly indentified in any manor? Is there work to do in this area still?

I can see that tx bloating can be an issue, will this work with thin wallets, SPV and bloom filtering in the same way as normal tx's are filtered in bitcoin?
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Uhhh.... okey dokey. That sounds really dangerous, because it means a blockchain re-org can change the meaning or behavior of a transaction. "There Be Dragons"

If a re-org occurs then the ATs would need to be "re-executed" (yes - we have thought of this - obviously their state cannot be retained if they are *rolled back*).

The exact mechanism for doing this would need to be worked out for each platform (i.e. how to *undo* state).

It also partly depends upon how you *deal with the state* (i.e. it could be stored *explicitly* in txs or it could be worked out *implicitly* by just publishing hashes).

The explicit approach would make re-orgs simpler (but would cause some bloat), whilst the implicit approach would use very little space but would complicate the re-orgs.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
@topic

i cant comment on the code but great to have such cool programmers  and such interesting ideas
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 2301
Chief Scientist
The timestamp is not intended to be an *actual timestamp* but instead one that is calculated by block height and tx within the block (i.e. an *artificial timestamp*).

Uhhh.... okey dokey. That sounds really dangerous, because it means a blockchain re-org can change the meaning or behavior of a transaction. "There Be Dragons"

legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
This is fascinating work. I will be looking through today to see about implementing within Syscoin's core - I am the lead developer on that project.

Please PM me in order to get contact details - and there is a *bounty* on offer (currently 5 BTC) for achieving the first "mainnet" *atomic cross-chain transfer/transaction* between Qora and a Bitcoin/Litecoin (i.e. Script) clone.
newbie
Activity: 53
Merit: 0
This is fascinating work. I will be looking through today to see about implementing within Syscoin's core - I am the lead developer on that project.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
I'm confused. In the lottery example:
Quote
get timestamp for @txid and store in @timestamp
What is the timestamp for a transaction? When the node receiving the transaction receives it? The timestamp of the block in which the transaction is confirmed?

Very nice to see you here Gavin.

The timestamp is not intended to be an *actual timestamp* but instead one that is calculated by block height and tx within the block (i.e. an *artificial timestamp*).

I only used the word "timestamp" as that *makes it easier to follow*.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 2301
Chief Scientist
I'm confused. In the lottery example:
Quote
get timestamp for @txid and store in @timestamp
What is the timestamp for a transaction? When the node receiving the transaction receives it? The timestamp of the block in which the transaction is confirmed?
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1004
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1004

I don't know if it will be part of the NXT testnet, since it won't be integrated into NXT, correct me if I am wrong. It will initially be implemented in the core of Qora, making it the first world-wide AT integration.

Correction, it will be on Nxt Testnet this weekend.  It's a specific dedicated NxtAT testnet.  Your information about integration is also wrong.  Qora might have an AT testnet up and running in two months (if he decides to actually do something on testnet).

Source's:
https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/msg117316/#msg117316
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9224248

Also, what's a "world-wide" integration?

Thanks for the correction.

But from what I know, it will be implemented into qoras core first.

Yeah, I could see that.  Nxt seems to be focused on other features at the moment and it sounds like Smart Contracts is more of a priority.  Anyway, I hope Nxt implements AT as it would be great to have CCT with other POS like Qora.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1000
Reality is stranger than fiction

I don't know if it will be part of the NXT testnet, since it won't be integrated into NXT, correct me if I am wrong. It will initially be implemented in the core of Qora, making it the first world-wide AT integration.

Correction, it will be on Nxt Testnet this weekend.  It's a specific dedicated NxtAT testnet.  Your information about integration is also wrong.  Qora might have an AT testnet up and running in two months (if he decides to actually do something on testnet).

Source's:
https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/msg117316/#msg117316
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9224248

Also, what's a "world-wide" integration?

Thanks for the correction.

But from what I know, it will be implemented into qoras core first.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1004

you haven't heard of the Inuit people's regional use of AT?

right after bow and arrow, AT was popularized in their culture. westerners are quite far behind

This was all shortly before they discovered the "wheel"  Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 493
Merit: 500

I don't know if it will be part of the NXT testnet, since it won't be integrated into NXT, correct me if I am wrong. It will initially be implemented in the core of Qora, making it the first world-wide AT integration.

Correction, it will be on Nxt Testnet this weekend.  It's a specific dedicated NxtAT testnet.  Your information about integration is also wrong.  Qora might have an AT testnet up and running in two months (if he decides to actually do something on testnet).

Source's:
https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/msg117316/#msg117316
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9224248

Also, what's a "world-wide" integration?

you haven't heard of the Inuit people's regional use of AT?

right after bow and arrow, AT was popularized in their culture. westerners are quite far behind
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1004

I don't know if it will be part of the NXT testnet, since it won't be integrated into NXT, correct me if I am wrong. It will initially be implemented in the core of Qora, making it the first world-wide AT integration.

Correction, it will be on Nxt Testnet this weekend.  It's a specific dedicated NxtAT testnet.  Your information about integration is also wrong.  Qora might have an AT testnet up and running in two months (if he decides to actually do something on testnet).

Source's:
https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/msg117316/#msg117316
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9224248

Also, what's a "world-wide" integration?
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
What are the chances that something like your project could get adapted into the Bitcoin blockchain in a few years?

I think the first step is to have the concept tested on a Litecoin clone first (we have had some interest in this already) then if that works out okay we'll try and get Litecoin itself to adopt it and then after that assuming everything is working okay for a year or two then maybe Bitcoin might be interested to know what this AT thing actually is (I don't have a marketing team nor can I attend conferences so unless they've noticed this topic it is likely they've never even heard of it).

Honestly it is far too early to tell about these things for now - but if the vast majority of other blockchains start adopting it then I do think Bitcoin will be *forced to take at least a serious look at it* (and hopefully by then it will have matured as well as had a thorough *hammering* on many blockchains).

To me a big part of the meaning of *decentralisation* is that "there should not be *one blockchain to rule them all*" which is why my idea is to offer AT to *all blockchains* and see if we can make it easy to do trustless transactions between them.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
CIYAM,

What are the chances that something like your project could get adapted into the Bitcoin blockchain in a few years?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1000
Reality is stranger than fiction
This will be released at the NXT testnet first in the coming days right?

I don't know if it will be part of the NXT testnet, since it won't be integrated into NXT, correct me if I am wrong. It will initially be implemented in the core of Qora, making it the first world-wide AT integration.
Pages:
Jump to: