Topic: Why do people in USA fear socialism so much? - page 22. (Read 34871 times)

This is starting to be like debating with a drunk or a child. How close am I ??

What does that even mean?? Unlike you, I have demonstrated through my posts that I know precisely what socialism is in its 3 historic forms, so your irrational comment makes absolutely no sense. It sounds like a child rant, "I know you are but what am I?".


Of course it has to be owned and regulated. How else will it be produced, distributed, and exchanged?? How would you prevent someone from taking all of any of the resources or products?? The honor system?? You are being a bit naive.


Then those people you mentioned are the central authority who would be owning , controlling, and/or regulating. Again you are being naive to even suggest the possibility of everyone agreeing on a community scale, let alone regional, national, or worldwide level. How would you stop someone from taking it all or more than their fair share?? Its theirs right?? How do you decide the criteria by which it is decided what their fair share is?? Body weight?? Each person gets an equal amount?? Who is the decider of that criteria?? I can imaging a 450 pound fat guy fighting like hell and justifying for alot more "resources" than a 90 pound petite womanor a child. How do you stop infighting when resources and products get low?? Maybe by ownership and regulation?? Force?? If everyone owns a cornfield how do you make decisions on who gets what??  By regulation. Who regulates? Who uses force? Ownership takes care of all that and more. I regulate by my decision to trade, barter, or sell its products. Your utopian dream is a nightmare that will never exist. If someone has more force than you, they will justify that their fair share will be alot more than yours. Dont be naive.


Then the strongest and fittest are the central authority by sheer force. They make the rules and enforce them by force. Sound familiar??


and your clarification has been rebutted and done away with in my previous posts. You have the amount of rights you can protect through force if they are infringed upon. I know I can protect what I have, or will die trying. My kids are worth it.
 

O course these and every other person is of some use in a society or community. Thats where trade and barter happen. Each person brings something to the table. Others dont own it. If you do not contribute, your church, charitable group, or family and friends help take care of you ... or you die.

My proof of claim is common sense. There was alot of common sense back then. My proof is also YOU. If you knew you would have your hand chopped off if you stole, would you steal, or work for what you need?? If you knew you would be killed for unlawfully killing someone else, would you still kill them?? If you knew you would be castrated for raping a woman, would you still rape her?? If you knew that you would be shot and killed for infringing on me or my property, would you still infringe on it, or would you develop labor and trade relationships to get what you need to survive??


neither of us truly believes that.


edit: and i needed to add my support for for following:


Sounds like most of our lazy youth today that had bad parenting. The innovation incentive makes alot of sense too.

I am sure all those socialists busting their asses will appreciate those lazy socialists who want everything but do nothing ... oh wait ... there are no ass busting socialists. So you will have a world of lazy people who feel entitled to everything but want to do nothing to get it.

I wonder how thats supposed to work.

Ah ... the computers will do it all !

The closet zeitgeisters and venus project entheusiasts are now uncovered !

Ah, but you have just defined it --in your view, rather-- whether you consider it a definition or not.

in that post i did only claim that socialism COULD WORK without a central authority. it is not a definition of socialism.

There's some self-indulgent fantasy bnllshlt about the good old days that never actually existed.

My my, we really need to hurt all those bad socialists who hate the hard-working good people like us, and long as were going right off the rails and back to the half-witted nursery, God told me to skin you alive, I have to do it, Jeebus said so.

by succeed do you mean survive or grow?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.643320

What definition? I didn't even see one.

kokjo, please explain how an economy which deprives people of the incentive to work or innovate can possibly succeed.  

you too

it does not need to be "owned or regulated".

simple, people decides to do so.

either anyone realizes that its a good idea to throw their shit into the pile. or would getting forced by people how thinks so(who does not have a central authority)

i have absolutly no idea about what "classic common law" is, so i can not argue this point. BUT you are still talking about rights, which i already have clarified for you that they are no more then an illusion.
 
have you considered that these people could be to some use for the society? and do you even have any proof of your claim of "little crimewith such penalties"?


your arguments seems flawed...

the sad state of affairs is that he is partially right.

we just dont know that we are socialists.

its a central authority taking all your rights and wealth from you and giving you privilages and benefits you need to apply for, that they can restrict and regulate at their whim, while skimming the majority of the wealth and property anbd distributing amongst themselves for their administrative "work". Our current socialist government only steals from us and creates paperwork and jobs with bloated salaries and benefits. It benefits our oppressors... not us.

According to Kokjo's vague definition, most of us are socialists. How lovely.

I would never be a part of any system of control over other people, other than my children, and only until such time as they decided to strike out on their own or had the intellect and experience to make rational and reasonable decisions for themselves.

I am not sure you know what socialism truly is...

If you mean classic socialism, how do you think the means of production, distribution, and exchange can be owned or regulated without some central authority ??

Even if you take it to the Marxist extreme of a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism, how do you think it can be done without a central authority ??

and if you take it to its most current version of an RBE-type existance where everyone throws their shit in a huge pile and shares, how will you get them to throw their shit into that pile without direct force ?? And who will be doing it if not a government or UN-like central authority making mandates and enforcing them ??

Do you realize that under classic common law where there were no government and statutes, communities worked together in harmony and agreement, while retaining ALL of their birth rights, producing, distributing, and exchanging as they saw fit anmd as needed ??

It was how the world survived before government and politics. Their politics was surviving by working together.

They also took care of criminals with an eye for an eye, and unsuprisingly there was little crime with such penalties.

have you ever speculated about if you was a part of the "few thousand"? i think that we agree on many points, but you have an inability to see how socialism would work. Socialism DOES NOT requiter a central authority. People often don't want freedom, but security.

if you think that socialism needs a central point of power. you are no better then all the people who thinks money MUST BE printed by the state/FED/banks/some-sort-of-authority.

(but im all for the freedom)

The only rights you have are the ones you can protect, through as much force as necessary to stop any infringement thats ocurring. This is where communities come in. We all need to come together as fellow humans. 7 billion citizens against a few thousand who wish to control us. No contest. No weaponry is powerful enough to stop the level of force 7 billion people possess. Its ok to be scared and fearful. Its part of the human condition. Cowardice is a different story. If you stand up for nothing, you will fall for anything. Its time to stand up. We have the power. We have our rights. We have the force. You are to scared and conditioned to realize it. If I had to die today to make this world better for my kids, I would do it in a heartbeat. Would I be scared?? Absolutely. Would I be a coward and say, "screw it- let my kids deal with it". Never, not on your life.

Isn't fear... Is that none of this tries have provided a decent human life for everybody on the planet.

Socialism, fascism, communism, capitalism are part of a social evolution... They come and go... None of this works nicely for mankind.

We need a new and better approach, a new culture.

I prefer something called a Resource-Based Economy.

Best,
Thiago

we have no rights, only force. and people with the bigger guns(metaphor, could be resources, or other stuff) have more force, they can take you life if they want too. but they often don't, because the lots of afraid-of-getting-killed-people with alot of small guns would come after them, and kill them.

anything else is just mutual agreements enforced by thread of force. Social constructions, my friend.
if the majority of the force(why im i thinking starwars now?) decides socialism, then socialism it is.
and you can do shit about that, with your sense of rights that you don't have(because The Force decides so).

So our rights and value only come from the state? They cannot be endowed by the individual herself nor what she holds as her master?

if there is something you do not comprehend about that comment, please post your question and I would he happy to answer it.

you lost me there, and im LAMFAO

Incorrect. We have birth rights, Creator-endowed rights. God-given rights, however you wish to label them and they are not written down, although the important ones have been codified and ratified "officially" and affirmed "on paper".

We are born unto the land and have no constraints upon us so long as we hurt no one else. We can otherwise do whatever we want. Nothing connects us with any "authority" other than people who force their will upon us at the point of a gun or though threat of force.

Our problem is that we obey them through our blind obedience ... the real foundation of misplaced power ... the cumulative force of a cowardly and compliant citizenry.

Laws, orders, and commands are inconsequential if completely ignored, or if we all stand up and say NO - I SHALL NOT OBEY.

Separated from the citizens that have been trained to obey them, even the most oppressive and tyrannical government officials are no more dangerous than a petty thief, so they are not the ones I fear...

I fear the indoctrinated, manipulated, and conditioned masses who would assault, sieze, imprison, or murder me in a heartbeat if the right "order" is given from those they believe hold authority over them. I fear the herded sheeple who believe that "written law" is to be followed at all costs and "authority" figures are to be obeyed blindly and at all costs ... even at the expense of self-evident rights, liberty, and morals and values.

Throughout history, citizens of the world have been indoctrinated, conditioned, and manipulated into following others instead of leading themselves and their families, and standing up for themselves and their families and communities when needed.

Throughout history, no oppressive and tyrannical leader would have succeeded without compliance of and by the citizens, and by citizens I mean every person in their control structure ... you, me, our families, and neighbors, cops, district attorneys, attorney generals, judges, and even the legislature ... all being pressured to comply and obey.

The problem is not the ones who think they have authority over us. The problem is us obeying them when we are only governed only through CONSENT of the governed.

Its time we remove that consent for a total system reset.

We are the only change we need.

We are the only ones that can make it happen.