Topic: Why do people in USA fear socialism so much? - page 23. (Read 34871 times)

I am saying (I believe) that, in the US, taking money from the wealthy and giving it to the poor results in more money in the hands of the wealthy in the long run, meanwhile stifling innovation and work ethic. Rather than the clever, cut throat businessmen with the power, you get the clever, cut throat smoothtalkers and liars with the power.

If you believe socialism to be superior in theory. Ok. I am basically saying that even if that is the case, you still should be worried about it being implemented in a perverse way in the US. Someone earlier in the thread was arguing that anarcho-capitalisists never seem to think pragmatically enough about how things will actually work out. I am saying the same thing here with regards to dealing with the US government's current culture of insane amounts of bureaucracy, corporatism and corruption.

Just passing a few laws never seems to work out in the way intended. So what kind of transition to this newer, less corrupt, more efficient government do you envision?

Remove all the justifications and excuses, and what you are left with is taking what some have worked hard all their lives for, at the point of a gun, by force, and giving part of it to someone else, while a 3rd party siphons most of it off the top for their own use. All supposedly for the greater good of humanity.

Its saying your rights are irrelevent, because in reality, you have no rights.

Its me coming to your home and taking what you have earned at the point of a gun, through threat of force, because some 3rd party said its legal on a piece of paper someone else signed.

Its saying you have no rights... just benefits and privilages other people regulate with a force greater than your own.

Its saying you do not have the right to do anything you want so long as you cause no loss or hurt anyone.

Its saying you have to do what more powerful people tell you to do, when they tell you to do it, only in the manner they allow you to do it in, while those people do whatever they want, whenever they want, in any way they wish to do it in, because they are more powerful.

Of course, you are told its all for the greater good (of the collective).

Its for your own good because you can not be trusted. Only they can be trusted.

right ?

Now, I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but this reminds me of something ... Yea, its called slavery... serfdom. Get out of line and Massa's overseer's cracks the whip, cuts off your foot, puts you in stocks, hangs you on a wall in chains, puts you in a cage, steals everything you have, rapes your women and daughters, executes you for hearesy, or just murders you in the name of the king, the pharoh, or ruler.

... all for the greater good of the collective ?

... or for the greater good of the real powers in the world behind it all ?

You know, conspiracy is illegal. Are the legislators crazy too since its obvious conspiracies dont exist ... right ?

Is it safe to say that extremely rich, ambitious, righteous, and self-serving people might have a plan and lists they are executing ?

If what they are doing is illegal, wouldnt it behoove them to lobby, bribe, indoctrinate, and manipulate for legislation changes making their illegal wants and desires, legal ?

Does legal equal lawful ?

Does illegal equal unlawful ?

Does the government derive their power and right to rule form the consent of the governed ?

If not, where do they get that power and right ?? By pure force ?

If so, do the people not hold the supreme authority, ability, and responsibility to remove it when its being abused ??

Again, not a problem with socialism but with governance. While I do empathize with you, I think you should put the blame where it belongs. Germany is pretty socialist, and they're efficient. Not saying that they couldn't be better, or that they wouldn't be equally efficient under capitalism.
And you're currently not a socialistic country by world standards, and you're in this mess right now. Perhaps it's the capitalistic way of thinking that created it?
Perhaps you need more socialism? Take more money from the wealthy and put it to work for the poor? Instead of taking money from everybody and give to the rich.

Hasn't anyone in this thread dealt with the US federal government? It takes 20 people and 4 months to order a computer. The wall of bureaucracy can be nearly impenetrable. The system discourages innovation and initiative, while rewarding cronyism and finding loopholes. Our congress doesn't even pass budgets anymore because they are too busy declaring pizza to be a vegetable, etc (its seriously just a game for these for these people). Look at what happened with Social Security. Everyone likes the idea of helping out old, poor folk with their medical bills, but what ended up being created was a huge ponzi scheme. They are constantly, constantly, constantly passing laws that give corporations and law enforcement more power to track you and intrude on your personal space. There are a bunch of creepy old dudes out there who want to know everywhere you go, everyone you talk to, and everything you do. Our government appears to be systematically overthrowing governments in the middle east according to some obscure plan. It is spending hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives to do so. That's all without even mentioning central banking, privileged position of having the worlds reserve currency, etc. From my perspective, the thing is out of control, and the people in a position to profit off all this have been doing just that.

Maybe "socialism" works fine in other countries, but not here (not that we aren't already 50% socialist). Not without a major change in Washington culture. Here we should be striving for less centralization, not more. I really do believe if we aren't careful it could end up the dystopian nanny state that forces everyone to be dependent upon it.

It's less a rational debate than it is reactionary childish hysteria in response to a changing world, hence I give it what it deserves.

One thing that is certain is that the United States has dumbed down considerably in the last 30 years or so and a retreat into superstitious thinking is a big part of that dumbing down. In particular, you have an age group that came of age in the 1980s who were carefully protected from critical thought to the point of not even being let in on the joke that the ideology which they actually believe was never more than an empty rationale, a lawyer's strategem in a negotiation. Prominent examples of of such individuals are Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, and Eric Cantor, two superstitious rubes and a wannabee Zionist traitor.

Americans are on the average dumb, easily misled, and have the attention span of parakeets. Getting them stirred up with whatever bogeyman serves your goals is about as hard as making a baby cry with a red hot salad fork.

I'm sorry, I thought this was an anarcho-capitalist dream? Unrestricted free trade, outsourcing of jobs to the lowest bidder, law of the wealthy.
Yes, the Euro is in a bad shape, but that's not from some conspiracy, that's because of shitty decisions long ago where countries couldn't agree on basic working principles and instead hoped that things would work out. And failing to adhere to their own rules that they actually agreed on. Unless you believe that the freemasons were behind it all and sabotaging the negotiations when the Euro was being discussed.

(Replace freemasons with Jews, NWO or any other group that fits your conspiracy theory)

I'm not offended but I do think that you're generalizing to fit your conclusion. By American standards, all European countries have embraced socialism more or less, but only a few of them are actually broke. The countries I listed aren't broke. They're doing quite well and they're as socialistic as any other country in Europe. I think you'll have to look elsewhere for the reason. Perhaps corrupt politicians in those countries, lack of tax morale, borrowing and spending money they didn't have. But that's not socialism. That happens everywhere.

What consequences are you talking about?  I assume it's not the positive ones I listed above.
Socialism exists today. And it's working quite well in the countries I listed. Unless we have different definitions of socialism.  

Its happening all over the world. Industrialized nations that have enjoyed many decades, to a century, of prosperity are being trampled by oppressive legislation, globalist interests, and are being tied down with world trade treaties, allowing unrestricted free trade, allowing multi-nationals to import goods made by people being paid a bowl of rice and a poke in the eye, killing those previously industrialized nations manufacturing infrastructure, employment, and economies. Look at the state of the euro and european economy. Its just as bad as America. The globalist interests are buying up governments all over the world to institute the treasonous legilsation and treaty ratification allowing it all. To bring up the 3rd world and bring down the industrialized nations so everyone is lower class serfs who need the government to take care of them. Next is World War 3, the spark of which has probably already been lit in the middle east.. They want everyone to be so beat down, scared, unhappy, and disenfranchised that we will accept world government and have a one world oppressive, tyrannical, totalitarian police state. Believe it.



Please debate the message that you disagree with instead of irrational ad-hominem attacks against the messenger, unless you have nothing of reason and rationale debate them with.

Nothing is 'wrong' with those places. I've enjoyed many of the European countries. 10 years ago, envy, is what most people would have thought because of the 'benefits'. Those are emotional, 'live today' crowd that ignore the fact that somebody always has to pay for those privileges that are given. Socialism is, imo, an idealistic realm that can only exist when resources are abundant.

As to the question, today people in the USA fear socialism because of Europe, sort of, embraced it and went broke. I don't mean to necessarily include all countries in Europe, but it is easier to generalize and get the point across than to list each country.

If a country wants to give a privilege to its citizens by using others money to pay for it though equalizing wealth, so be it. Just so long as they know the consequences. Socialism will never truly exist. Never has never will, unless you can find one of those food and material replicator devices from Star Trek.

But Hey, its just my dumb opinion. No offense.

tl;dr

Fear the dumb beasts, particularly those who publicly masturbate about their hard working virtuosity and moral superiority, for they are indeed jerk offs, and not in season nearly often enough.

Guns are love, it's time to love one another right now 

What's so bad about Norway? Sweden? Germany? Finland? Denmark?

Or are you just looking at the misbehaving countries who have lived over their means for quite a while? It's not like that's an European problem.

One word answer:

Europe 

A book published in 2009 claims that negative social phenomena such as shorter life expectancy, higher disease rates, homicide, infant mortality, obesity, teenage pregnancies, emotional depression and prison population correlate with higher socioeconomic inequality.

The book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level:_Why_More_Equal_Societies_Almost_Always_Do_Better

Socialism is an inevitable consequence of greed-driven capitalism and human nature.

Humans don't like seeing other humans suffer, and in capitalism, there can be only one winner.

I agree with you BInd. I'm sure you're a good working citizen. But nowadays with local ordinances and state laws etc.... public schools, welfare it's pretty close. Just because they haven't enforced vocational careers and enforced labor doesn't mean we're not there already.

you are talking about the younger, propagandized, indoctrinated generations with entitlement disorders.

Older people and younger ones who have had proper upbringings work very hard, and no matter what happens they will always work as much and as hard as necessary to make their lives and the lives of their loved ones better. In other words, they adapt to the needs as the needs arise.

As a small business owner, I have a very strong work ethic. I do what needs done regardless of the situation and I put in as many hours as needed to get the job done on schedule. I have already worked 36 hours straight (with breaks) to get jobs done on schedule. Have done this all my life since growing up on a farm. Since I was a young boy I had chores. I can remember getting up at 3:30 am before school to feed livestock and milk cows and goats. Then after school, you do your other chores. You are so beat you go to bed a 7pm or 8pm. That might seem strange to some people but I was never happier.

So I reject your contention that Americans are lazy fat slobs, although the arguement can certainly be made that we are rapidly turning into that, but it isnt just Americans. Its happeneing world-wide.

What you are witnessing is not just America, its all over the world, and its a product of a socialist state. They need you to be so poor, so unhappy, and so disenfranchised that you need to rely on the state for every need, because you cant do it for yourself.

What they do not tell you is what will happen after everyone relies on the state. Who will do the critical jobs? My guess is that everyone will be taught in school, like what is happening now, to be a worker population with lots of vocational testing and training. They will give you your job mandates. A police state where you serve the state and if you cant serve the state, you will be put out to pasture, imprisoned, or eliminated because you are a waste of the air you breathe. Where will your housing come from when its state run? Your food and water? Clothing? toilet paper? shoes? Maybe tuesdays are meat days and thursdays are bread days. Will you still get those food stamps and subsidies? doubtful.

American fears socialism so much because it would make those who actually get crap done at work. Have less work to do. Then the ones that works their mouth at work. Everybody seen those pictures of 4 guys standing at work, 3 of them around that one guy that does it.

Imagine if America can work as fast as the lazyiest person/sloth/chatterbug at work. Nothing would get done and we all be in line waiting for the free government bread! Imagine if our workplace was enforced by robots and everybody would  have equal share of duties and jobs. Everything would be fair and the lazy & slouches would die off. We're so scared of irobot cuz they probably kill off all the lazy bastards and broods who will never change.

No we certainly are not as bad as the USSR was YET. The operative word is YET. Its getting there rapidly.

Go research the history of the founders and top tiered members of the societies, fraternal, and supposed philanthropic 501(c)(3) foundations and organisations that have lead to the globalist juggernaught that has taken over the governments of the world, from international, right down to your local municipality and school boards, especially those in the name of the education, sustainable development, enviroment, world peace, health, and monetary reform.

Its called incrementalism and gradualism.

it should never be YET.

it should always be NEVER.

an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Yeah, we posted within a few minutes of each other