Why do people think income tax is ok? - page 13.

Mike Christ

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Quote from: practicaldreamer on January 24, 2014, 02:29:32 PM

Quote from: Mike Christ on January 24, 2014, 02:24:32 PM

Do you truly believe the rich, who game politics to begin with, are going to agree to simply giving their money away?

Mike - I'd be happy if you could agree to them simply giving their money away !!

I understand why they don't want the tax - but I can't quite get my head around why you don't.

Hey - they haven't got you on the payroll have they ? Wink

I believe I've made my case clear: I'm not a thief, and I will not stoop to their levels. I'm not advocating against the rich being taxed, I'm advocating against involuntary association. If the rich can't use force to get their way, they can't be rich through illegitimate means. Thus, the only rich people of this planet are those who are most valuable to us; I don't want these people taxed, as they are not thieves.

Your system just permeates the current system, where thieves are on the top of the world and continue to exploit as they see fit, except you get to live off other people via stolen money. Aside from being completely dependent on the state (can you say fascism?), do you see the ethical problem?

practicaldreamer

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Quote from: hilariousandco on January 24, 2014, 02:19:26 PM

lol at that guy claiming to be Satoshi Grin

.

Yes - its almost getting to be like Spartacus isn't it - "No, I'm Spartacus" Grin

practicaldreamer

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Quote from: Mike Christ on January 24, 2014, 02:24:32 PM

Do you truly believe the rich, who game politics to begin with, are going to agree to simply giving their money away?

Mike - at this point I'd be happy if you could agree to them simply giving their money away !!

I understand why they don't want the tax - but I can't quite get my head around why you don't.

Hey - they haven't got you on the payroll have they ? Wink

Mike Christ

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Quote from: practicaldreamer on January 24, 2014, 02:15:33 PM

Quote from: Mike Christ on January 24, 2014, 02:04:58 PM

I think becoming a thief and liar because you were stolen from and lied to makes you the same as the men you are against.

Hold on - so if I was stolen from and lied to, and then take back that which was initially stolen from me via lies and duplicity - then I too am a liar and a thief ??

Doesn't sound quite right to me Huh

To me the word is - justice

Yes, if you lie and steal, you are a thief and liar. You enable the cycle to continue by admitting that theft and lies are acceptable; eventually you must put your foot down and proclaim that you've had enough, otherwise you're no better than the people who stole and lied to get their way.

Besides, your system is impossible; if you live in a society with a rich 1%, the only way they got there was through government force. Do you truly believe the rich, who game politics to begin with, are going to agree to simply giving their money away? You forget the fact that you're advocating an "orts off the table" system, where you're okay with the rich getting rich from the use of coercion, as long as you get a cut from the stolen goods. This is a very unique definition of justice, I think.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on January 24, 2014, 11:07:04 AM

take five minutes to watch this bitcoin presentation, the way this guy explains it is amongst the best I've heard.

I don't know how this video is relevant or why I needed to watch it when it's all stuff I already knew, but lol at that guy claiming to be Satoshi Grin

.

practicaldreamer

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Quote from: Mike Christ on January 24, 2014, 02:04:58 PM

I think becoming a thief and liar because you were stolen from and lied to makes you the same as the men you are against.

Hold on - so if I was stolen from and lied to, and then take back that which was initially stolen from me via (the aforementioned) lies and duplicity - then I too am a liar and a thief ??

Doesn't sound quite right to me Huh

To me the word is - justice

Mike Christ

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Quote from: practicaldreamer on January 24, 2014, 01:59:02 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on January 24, 2014, 12:58:55 PM

Why have any involuntary payments to a central authority?

Well, because although they might be involuntary for the 1%, they aren't for those of us who believe that 1% have acquired that wealth via less than just means or merely via exploiting wage labour. We are the 99% Wink

Isn't that what BTC is all about ? Isn't that what democracy is all about ? Huh

Why don't we find a different name for "tax" that might let the libertarians among us believe that its something they'd thought up - and not a Government. Why don't we call it a voluntary community based tariff - or something similar ? It would still be totally essential and requisite to the just and equitable organic survival of the community - but at least this way some people wouldn't feel as though they were pouring money down the drain. They would be able to (in the words of that great American William James) "make felicitous and easy what in any case is necessary".

Great philosophy emanating from across the pond - pragmatism. Voluntary community based tariff - I like it Grin

How do you feel about that ?

I think becoming a thief and liar because you were stolen from and lied to makes you the same as the men you are against.

practicaldreamer

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on January 24, 2014, 12:58:55 PM

Why have any involuntary payments to a central authority?

Well, because although they might be involuntary for the 1%, they aren't for those of us who believe that the 1% have acquired that wealth via less than just means or merely via exploiting wage labour. We are the 99% Wink

Isn't that what BTC is all about ? Isn't that what democracy is all about ? Huh

Why don't we find a different name for "tax" that might let the libertarians among us believe that its something they'd thought up - and not a Government. Why don't we call it a voluntary community based tariff - or something similar ? It would still be totally essential and requisite to the just and equitable organic survival of the community - but at least this way some people wouldn't feel as though they were pouring money down the drain. They would be able to (in the words of that great American William James) "make felicitous and easy what in any case is necessary".

Great philosophy emanating from across the pond - pragmatism. Voluntary community based tariff - I like it Grin

How do you feel about that ?

Mike Christ

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on January 24, 2014, 12:58:55 PM

Why have any involuntary payments to a central authority?

practicaldreamer should be able to live under his tax-the-1% model, if he chooses

hilariousandco should be able to live under his dependency based model, if he chooses

Everyone else should be free to choose which one to join.

The difference seems to be intolerance of anything else: I (and others) are advocating letting people choose which overall system they want. Others are saying "you can't choose that version, because of this reason". Why can't people choose, and then see which way works?

The reason being, those models would fall apart without someone at the end of the gun; advocates of taxation must advocate secular involuntary association, otherwise the 1%ers would leave to another society where they wouldn't be taxed, and the people who were being depended on would leave to another society where they wouldn't be; this leaves both the initial nations in shambles. The idea of taxation mandates there being no alternative; if you allow people the freedom of choice, how could you legally take from them? They would simply deny you the right; taxation becomes unenforceable under the principle of voluntary association.

Carlton Banks

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Why have any involuntary payments to a central authority?

practicaldreamer should be able to live under his tax-the-1% model, if he chooses

hilariousandco should be able to live under his dependency based model, if he chooses

Everyone else should be free to choose which one to join.

The difference seems to be intolerance of anything else: I (and others) are advocating letting people choose which overall system they want. Others are saying "you can't choose that version, because of this reason". Why can't people choose, and then see which way works?

practicaldreamer

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Why do people think income tax is ok?

I think the question should really be Why do people think paying VAT is OK ?

Value Added Tax hits everyone the same, wether you are a billionaire or struggling to make ends meet. Its not related to your ability to pay (in the same way that the old Poll Tax that Thatcher introduced wasn't) and so, to me, is an unjust and inefficient way to tax.

My solution ?

Get rid of VAT and increase the income tax on the 1% highlighted in the recent Oxfam report to make up for the loss in revenues Grin

The report states:

Almost half of the world’s wealth is now owned by just one percent of the population.
The wealth of the one percent richest people in the world amounts to $110 trillion. That’s 65 times the total wealth of the bottom half of the world’s population.
The bottom half of the world’s population owns the same as the richest 85 people in the world.
Seven out of ten people live in countries where economic inequality has increased in the last 30 years.
The richest one percent increased their share of income in 24 out of 26 countries for which we have data between 1980 and 2012.
In the US, the wealthiest one percent captured 95 percent of post-financial crisis growth since 2009, while the bottom 90 percent became poorer.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on January 24, 2014, 11:07:04 AM

hilariousandco - you're talking past everyone and not getting the point

take five minutes to watch this bitcoin presentation, the way this guy explains it is amongst the best I've heard.

Five minutes to watch a video that is 65 minutes long? And what point am I not getting?

Quote from: uranian on January 24, 2014, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: bitlancr on January 24, 2014, 08:10:16 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on January 24, 2014, 06:58:58 AM

...it's not stealing if you willingly give up something.

For the umpteenth time, I do not willingly pay tax. I pay tax because I don't want to:

a) Go to prison;
b) Leave my friends and family;
c) Live off the work of others.

You can call those 'choices' if you want - same way as if you were mugged at knifepoint in the street, you might 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Doesn't make it voluntary, does it?

I don't know if hilariousandco is just playing devil's advocate or if he's a serial liar:

Quote from: hilariousandco on January 18, 2014, 10:39:48 AM

I pretend to be a woman online and set up a website pretending to be a financial dominatrix. Every now and again I get random shit sent to me from my Amazon Wishlist and I smile. Men are idiots.

But I don't think there's much point debating someone who is obviously not being intellectually honest.

I wasn't being serious about that, but how is that being 'intellectually dishonest' or where are my other serial lies? I also don't get how that invalidates my argument here.

uranian

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Quote from: bitlancr on January 24, 2014, 08:10:16 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on January 24, 2014, 06:58:58 AM

...it's not stealing if you willingly give up something.

For the umpteenth time, I do not willingly pay tax. I pay tax because I don't want to:

a) Go to prison;
b) Leave my friends and family;
c) Live off the work of others.

You can call those 'choices' if you want - same way as if you were mugged at knifepoint in the street, you might 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Doesn't make it voluntary, does it?

I don't know if hilariousandco is just playing devil's advocate or if he's a serial liar:

Quote from: hilariousandco on January 18, 2014, 10:39:48 AM

I pretend to be a woman online and set up a website pretending to be a financial dominatrix. Every now and again I get random shit sent to me from my Amazon Wishlist and I smile. Men are idiots.

But I don't think there's much point debating someone who is obviously not being intellectually honest.

Carlton Banks

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hilariousandco - you're talking past everyone and not getting the point

take five minutes to watch this bitcoin presentation, the way this guy explains it is amongst the best I've heard.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: bitlancr on January 24, 2014, 10:02:36 AM

So you're saying by earning over £9k, I'm voluntarily handing myself over to a mugger. In other words, everybody above the lowest common denominator should be mugged. Is that your idea of a just society?

Evidently it is, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'll keep pushing for freedom from tyranny, and you keep searching for that benevolent government to fix the world's ills.

You're choosing to play someone else’s game by their rules. If you do so willingly you cannot complain when you have to pay their fines or go straight to jail. My idea of a just society is where everybody pays a fair amount and all of society benefits.

And there wouldn't be an all powerful government if people didn’t keep paying their wages. I'd rather put people into power who care about people over profit, and just because something isn't working as well as it could be doesn't mean to say we have to destroy the system and let the poorest among us feel the full weight of that come crashing down upon them.

bitlancr

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So you're saying by earning over £9k, I'm voluntarily handing myself over to a mugger. In other words, everybody above the lowest common denominator should be mugged. Is that your idea of a just society?

Evidently it is, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'll keep pushing for freedom from tyranny, and you keep searching for that benevolent government to fix the world's ills.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: bitlancr on January 24, 2014, 09:27:51 AM

Go back to my mugging at knifepoint example. You 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Is that voluntary?

As for the tax threshold: do you expect someone to be able to live on £9k/year without relying on handouts from others? You're clutching at straws here.

Of course you can live on it. I've lived on much less than that before. I've also known people who have lived on less than what I have with no state benefits whatsoever.

And your mugging example is irrelevant. What you're doing is walking up to a "mugger" and giving him your wallet. I think it's you who's clutching at straws here, especially since you can't comprehend between theft and giving people money.

bitlancr

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Go back to my mugging at knifepoint example. You 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Is that voluntary?

As for the tax threshold: do you expect someone to be able to live on £9k/year without relying on handouts from others? You're clutching at straws here.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: bitlancr on January 24, 2014, 08:10:16 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on January 24, 2014, 06:58:58 AM

...it's not stealing if you willingly give up something.

For the umpteenth time, I do not willingly pay tax. I pay tax because I don't want to:

a) Go to prison;
b) Leave my friends and family;
c) Live off the work of others.

You can call those 'choices' if you want - same way as if you were mugged at knifepoint in the street, you might 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Doesn't make it voluntary, does it?

For the umpteenth time: You choose to live your life this way, so that doesn't make it involuntary, does it? What does your friends or family have to do with this? You chose to stay with them. Choices you all made.

And d) Earn under the tax threshold, but you don't want to play the game this way, so you willingly choose to pay the taxes on the money that you owe. You can't get a free ride this way I'm afraid.

bitlancr

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Quote from: hilariousandco on January 24, 2014, 06:58:58 AM

...it's not stealing if you willingly give up something.

For the umpteenth time, I do not willingly pay tax. I pay tax because I don't want to:

a) Go to prison;
b) Leave my friends and family;
c) Live off the work of others.

You can call those 'choices' if you want - same way as if you were mugged at knifepoint in the street, you might 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Doesn't make it voluntary, does it?

Topic: Why do people think income tax is ok? - page 13. (Read 17878 times)