Topic: Why Do You Invest? (Read 10559 times)

Don't invest in BTC investments without collateral. Simple.

As stated in red - It doesn't make sense on the existing properties to lever. It's a completely different story for flips though.

Flips are usually short term, high profit. On $100k loaned as hard money @ 14% APY the interest payment is $1166/mo.  Most flips will take less than  6 months to do, many are only 4 months. So your total cost for the loan will be only $4466-$6996 which is roughly 4.5%-6.5% plus whatever points you're paying. A 4.5%-6.5% interest cost on a propery that returns 50%-70% in the course of less than 6 months makes sense. Said 14% loan does not make sense on a property that returns 16% a year.

Not sure I'm understanding you.  You seem to be saying that borrowing at such rates makes no sense, but are trying to borrow at 14% from forum members here:

I've been in real estate for 8+ years and worked with dozens of investors. I've worked with many who eventually went under due to a market downturn (We're talking losses of half a million to one million dollars over the course of 6-9 months). I just don't feel comfortable taking other people's money, using it for a more risky venture (Flips) then have the job to report to them that all their money is gone due to a market downturn.

I was clear when I started RENT I wanted to do rentals, not flips. The reason I'm talking about diversification and flips is because that's what the investors are telling me they want. We've got a good base of properties and are bringing in pretty decent cash now, because of that I can look at alternative ideas, especially once we get leverage.


The attempt was for hard money. We ABSOLUTELY, CAN NOT use hard money to refinance our existing properties. The cost is too high (12% APY + 3 points) and our average yield is right around 16%. That would leave us a whopping 4% maximum return per property. It just doesn't make sense to hard money lend on our rentals unless we can start finding properties that return 40%-50% APY. That makes sense for flips, not for rentals.

Banks won't lend to NEW businesses with a short track record even if they have hard assets (property). They want to see, normally, 2 years of profit before they'll do a mortgage. If you know of a bank that doesn't do this, i'll send them financial information and try to get a loan. The reason we want this kind of financing is because rates are generally 4%-6% and it would give us the ability to arbitrage between the 4%-6% bank rate and our 16%+ margin on properties.

because i thought i was gonna earn some money. But with all the new decentralized apps, such as decentralized exchanges and gambling sites, the current securities all will go bust because they are to expensive. Decentralized apps cost a fraction of what the centralized apps costs.

Question is: why did you buy them in the first place

I'm a hodler of a couple of 'securities' myself. And indeed. Except from Buy-A-Hash they all cost money. Poor us. But I learned.

gonna sell al my shares at havelock and cryptostocks, what a joke.

Klye is a moron and this was completely obvious to anyone that cared to look. He actually crashed and burned way sooner than I thought though, I guessed 3 months max.

Haha guess I was having to much fun arguing with you and missed that it was a different poster with a similar view. Don't worry thought I still have the same lack of confidence in your abilities to understand markets and investing in general.

Today's lesson:  Difference between "he" and "I."
Tomorrow:  Shapes and colors. <==FUN!!1!

*My patience pales only in light of my magnanimity. Seldom if ever do I get upset with those under my tutelage.  No matter how abjectly obtuse they may be.  You needn't worry

^
Never have.  And most certainly never claimed to.

Lol. That's funny to hear from the guy claiming to run a security.

RLY?


Unlike the rubes who send you money, I'm generally unimpressed by assurances from a d00d who, amidst all the sperging, is still unwilling to giving me his name.


Heard this argument again and again, from Labcoin to NEOBEE to ActiveMining to CoinReturn. "If it's a scam, then why X?"
It's X because it's X, it's X because suckers think scams don't X, so all a scammer has to do is X to prove he ain't a scamming.

Stop acting as pure as the driven snow.  You are a criminal, if for no other reason then for willingly circumventing securities/finance laws of your state and country.  Your crimes are petty and common, and I personally couldn't care less about them, but it establishes your willingness to break laws.  The only questions remaining are "which laws?" and "to what extent?"

Am I 100% sure that you will scam?  No.  Only 99% sure.  Just as I was only 99% sure that your major competitor in the pr0nz biz, Klye the camwhore, would scam.  99% is good enough for me.

Edit: Added red font in hopes of not having to repeat this as often.

Playing cards are infinitely lighter than refrigerators. You'd think someone smart enough to come up with the elaborate schemes you fantasize about would pick something less likely to give them a bad back.

You've been proven incorrect about every single thing you pulled out of your ass in regards to me. I assure you, I didn't play some long game with a websites that you specifically don't know about while others do in order to come up with the brilliant plan of concocting some elaborate story about washing machines. I've been in the business going on 7 years, it has grown year over year and it is real.

It is a 15,000 square foot borefest. If I wanted to come up with some elaborate scheme to steal Bitcoin I would have chosen something that would be more widely accepted in order to raise funds much more quickly.

Talk shit about Havelock all you'd like, if the securities there suck then that is their problem. Until I do something worthy of your scorn please refrain from making things up to complain about as everything you've come up with so far is pure conjecture.

Then I prefer it this way over loosing money in real "investments" on Havelock.

@jonsi: Of course not.  Money's money.  But this has as much in common with investing as winning a game of Three Card Monte.

Well, I don't really care as long as I made a profit, do I?

This was previously covered.  Those who claim that bitcoin securities are a hedge against BTC are simply ignoring the available data.  When BTC price goes up, the securities prices don't correspondingly go down, and when BTC price halved, securities prices did't double.
This is all quite easy to read from bitcoin price charts and securities price charts available directly from Havelock.

TL;DR:  Interesting theory disproved by empirical data.

*This also ignores "securities" like PETA, which *require* high BTC prices to be profitable (mine BTC and have fiat overhead).  If BTC tanks, so do these stocks, but much quicker

Edit:  Here is a simple trick to examine the negative correlation [or lack of it] between bitcoin price and the price of bitcoin securities.  No need to download data and fire up Excel or Gnuplot--simply superimpose an inverted screencap of bitcoin price (shrink/stretch to line up the dates) over the stock price of your choice.  Like so:

Your beautiful chart is correct. But your assumption is primitive. If BTC price drops to $1 this will dramatically affect the Bitcoin economy. It shows a significant drop in demand and makes it very easy for companies to acquire Bitcoins. I dare to generalize that if Bitcoin price drops to $1 then that company will be able to return 100 BTC instead of your assumed 1 BTC. In this scenario the investment was a success in pure BItcoin terms although still a loss in fiat terms.