Topic: Why Do You Invest? - page 7. (Read 10548 times)

OgNasty, those investments had only went down in value regarding of the BTC usd price. The poit you fail to understand is that if you invested 10 BTC when BTC was $1000 and even if BTC went down to $1, of course you are not happy because now you have 20BTC if this is how much your investment brought to you, but are you happy having 1 BTC or less (wich is the reality of BTC investments in general, not only on Havelock)? The question remains legit: why do you invest?

I'm not just suggesting it.  I'm stating that if the security you are investing in is run properly, it will most certainly provide a hedge as opposed to 100% exposure to one currency or another.



You're kidding right?  Try taking a longer view of the market instead of looking day to day...  BTC is up thousands of % and BTC denominated securities have seen their prices lowered as a result.  It isn't rocket science...  That is why I say valuing them in a different way then say Amagi Metals values their gold/silver or Overstock.com values their products in BTC is simply investors not understanding what it is they're doing.


EDIT: Just to further prove my point... If you purchased 100 BTC at $2 and now go and sell them all for $55,000, go ahead and tell the IRS you saw no gain because you bought 100 BTC and sold 100 BTC.  Then you can join mpoe in prison while continuing to believe you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Of course I'd be upset that BTC has been devalued in respect to USD.  I hope you're not suggesting that bitcoin "investments" would somehow provide a hedge against that?  

Havelock offerings continued tanking regardless of the BTC/USD exchange rate.
Depreciated while BTC prices were climbing.
Depreciated while prices fell.
There's no clear correlation between BTC price and the price of a Havelock basket.  Try to find it in, oh, let's pick one that's everyone's darling, has been around for a while, and hasn't folded or ran away--ASICMINER.
Point to BTC price movement on this chart:



As far as honesty re. BTC vs. USD, that's irrelevant.  Since all "investments" on Havelock have been shown to turn BTC into a smaller amount of BTC, a scenario would have to exist in which 1 BTC is worth less than 0.1 BTC for these "investments" to make sense.
There is no such scenario, thus they do not. 

Let me easily tell you why you are all wrong.

You all say your goal is to increase BTC.  That is easy to say while BTC is rising in value.  What if BTC drops from $560 down to $0.01 while your BTC investment doubles?  Would you be happy your $560 investment is now worth $0.02, or would you be angry that you lost all the real value of your investment?

Also, if you think that a mining investment is only in BTC you don't clearly understand what the costs of running a business are priced in.

Please people, use common sense.  You aren't investing USD, you are investing BTC.  However, claiming you're investing to get more BTC is simply you being dishonest with yourselves.  You are all investing to acquire more wealth, not BTC.  Becoming infatuated with the BTC price increase to tear down every other asset in existence displays a disconnection from reality that is most certainly a warning to others of mental instability.



There would be no real profits at all in the example I gave of a company cashing out BTC raised from an IPO and then gaining BTC value as the exchange rate dropped.  The USD invested would be identical to the USD investment in the company regardless of the last exchange rate.  You would have no added purchasing power whatsoever and thus, have not gained anything.  However, the thread starter would congratulate you on such amazing performance, even though you could have found millions of better performing assets to invest in.  While I do agree that most BTC securities are garbage (see mpex's current offerings), at least show the value that they've lost in purchasing power and not just the result of the BTC rate performance from the time they IPO'd til now.  That is foolish and not beneficial to any intelligent investor.



There's this thing in investing called diversification.  It's sort of important to know if you're going to pretend to be an investment guru.  You might want to look it up.  Also, I never claimed that keeping coins will make you more dollars.  Ask someone who bought in at $1,000...  You're using your own personal experience of losing BTC hand over fist and trying to blame a market you don't grasp.  Sad, because I used to think you had some intelligence, but now I can see that your current legal dilemma has brought more trolling out of you, while at the same time removing any coherent thought.

Valuing a BTC investment in anything *but* BTC is idiotic.  BTC is the unit of account.  Just like USD is the unit of account when you invest USD.  You learn that around the time you learn to tie shoelaces.
If you get back less [insert unit of account here] than you "invest," you're loosing.  That should be self-evident.


OK.  If keeping your coin in your pocket makes you *more* dollars, why would you "invest"?
Because keeping your coin in your pocket does just that--when you convert your BTC into dollars, you will get more money for 1 BTC than you would for 0.1 BTC, which is what you'd have had you "invested" your 1 BTC.
Lawd!


You provide investment advice?  IRL?  RLY?!

@Everybody insisting I'm MP:
What makes you think that?  The rumor was started by butthurt Active Mining "investors," unable to accept the fact that they have been pwnt by an illiterate alcoholic from Missouri.  The same contingent has insisted that I'm Eduardo de Castro, Icebreaker, Puppet, and countless other bogeymen.  I do not defend myself against such accusations partially because of the lel involved.  

     OgNasty I mostly agree with you in many of your posts but here you are wrong. A securitie issued in BTC for a mining company has nothing to do with BTC/usd price, absolutely nothing. If you invest 10 BTC when the price for 1 BTC is $600 and you end up with 6 BTC but now the price of 1 BTC is $1100 by your sayings it was a successful investment but I can assure you it was not and in fact you lost 40% of your original amount by the fact that you invested those 10 BTC.



-edit-
 Also you say about a company has no value because: "all they did was take your BTC and hold it in USD". You are wrong again and here is why: A company that know when to convert BTC to usd and usd to BTC would be one of the most profitable companyes of our time giving the volatility of the market and would make extremely huge profits for investors if such a company should exist.
-edit-

Two separate issues here in my mind. Yes, we know this is MP and his modus operandi when it comes to the Securities forum on bitcointalk. If one isn't on to his shtick by now, spending ten minutes in this sub forum will definitely fill you in on all you need to know about him and his motivations.
 

His much beleaguered point on the quality of and returns on Bitcoin-denomiated securities has some merit, I simply do not trust his intentions. I think it is fair to say that for many of us, if we wanted to invest in companies with dollars, we would and can through any number of traditional means. One has already made an investment if they find themselves here with BTC to invest in a company or security. The goal is often then to make more BTC then initially invested, with the knowledge you are helping the ecosystem grow during its infancy. The experiment of growing ones BTC through investments in the crypto-sphere has been an unmitigated disaster for the majority of investors.

This poses a fairly serious quandary for investors. If the goal is to increase your purchasing power valued in Dollars, simply hold your BTC. This strategy has been the winning one since the start of BTCitcoin, over securities by a fair margin. So then what is the use-case and motivation behind ever investing in a company valued in BTCitcoin? Opposed to taking on 0% risk and holding the coins while they appreciate versus fiat dollars ($) year over year? This is a legitimate question we are faced with given the performances of all crypto assets. If there is not a good answer then I see a large problem coming up ahead, as companies need capital investment to come to life. If it is a proven losing strategy to invest in bitcoin denominated securities (few exceptions exist), then where is the capital investment going to come from? A model with only private investors funding seems to be growing in popularity, and it is the only option a company has now if investors are drained of coins to give them to get off the ground through yet another IPO.


MP is using a serious and emotional issue to do what he does best, antagonize others while he awaits his fate in the real world. Unfortunately for the rest of us, his post does highlight the reality of this sector.

Valuing these offerings over time in BTC is idiotic...  Valuing 99.9% of the things on this planet in BTC over time will result in them looking like they have lost a ton of value when in fact they have not...  There is a reason that while Bitcoin is accepted as a means of exchange, things are still priced in USD.  By your account, buying a home, stocks, gold, dollars, etc, would have all been horrible "investments" due to their lack of performance against Bitcoin.  I really wish idiots that didn't understand simple accounting would stop pretending to be intelligent investors and accept that they are shills hiding behind a veil of idiocy to further an agenda.  

Using your line of thinking, any IPO that happened around the $1,000/BTC mark should look like an amazing investment now, even if all they did was take your BTC and hold it in USD.  Obviously only an idiot would think that an entity actually gained value with that course of action.

You ask why people invest...  Let me answer that for you as I have decades of experience providing analysis to investors...  Every investor I have met up until this point in my life would answer that question the same.  People invest to make dollars.  Now, stop pretending to be an idiot and go take the time to do the actual numbers including the average prices paid at the exchange rates during the time if you want to provide numbers with any kind of meaning behind them.  Otherwise, congratulations on a good troll.  It seems with your centralized exchange dying a slow painful manipulated death, you are upset to the point where you are just lashing out.  Given your legal circumstances and lack of maturity, I can understand your position and look forward to watching the continued deterioration of your mental state.

The Condo thing was also the dumbest damn thing I have ever heard a real estate investor say. From what I can see he is a agent and new to investing. The first thing people cut in a bad economy is vacations, economy takes a dip that place is GONE!

Thats bullshit banks will not lend, if you have a property free and clear
Do hard money
They will do loans for any investor with 0 down, yes its is real. I have seen someone use them and flip 10 houses.

He is a "Noob" Investor at best, his liquidity is being held up by inexperience. When starting flips are your best revenue generator. Hes talking about franchising... oh lawd.
http://www.homevestors.com/
 
Ug's ugly homes franchise will eat him alive, they are ruthless undercut people and have large capital to back them.

A more formalized version of this should be linked/appended to every single IPO offering on the forums as a cautionary tale. If investors see the pitfall they are entering into and still consciously decide to go risk their BTC, then there is not much else one can do to prevent this from happening. I would not provide this an an attempt to 'Troll' already broke investors or scare away new investors. Simply provide an accurate, up-to-date historical reference of past performances in the sector. The results are so poor I do not believe any commentary would be needed. The numbers speak for themselves, sadly.

@AcoinL.L.C:
Re. ASICMINER:  "Issue price" is marked with red font and an asterisk.  There's a corresponding footnote.  Seems fair.

Re. RENT: Market price is market price.  It's what the market is willing to pay you for what you have.  As I said, RENT seemed to stick out for me also.
Until the second IPO.
And then an  attempt to borrow money @14% to [according to Branny] buy another property.  Because banks won't lend money to a corporation with (quoting you here) "networth ... over $600k."

@Blazedout419:  Thanks, "this time for sure!"

Really great post you have made here!  It amazes me how many seem to keep investing in these securities and getting burned over and over again.  I hope this will make them wake up and realize you will not make any BTC investing into these.

Its a bit unfair to post ASICMINER at 4.5BTC, the shares on havelock are from shareholders who requested to move their shares there. While ASICMINER has historically done very well investors, I would also say its highly over valued and I honestly think it will fail within the next 2 years. While your doing this, mind posting the assets that are on Mpex while your at it? Or is this just to bash your competition.

It is true that 95%+ of the current / past offerings have been garbage, and likely will continue that way in the future, but at least people have an option to try and raise fundraising for their ideas that they wouldn't have access to before.

These shares are very similar to penny stocks (Both in price and possible return of investment  ), the vast majority are flops / scams. If people used their heads the majority of these projects wouldn't even get funded.

Also, share price isn't everything. RENT's networth is over $600k, quite a bit higher than its current price. And PETA and SCRYPT have paid dividends, thought I still don't think putting money with any mining group will actually ever give a positive return.

Done.  Number of offerings currently showing a profit:  0 (zero).
@jonsi:  Mentioned NEOBEE as a footnote. 

Please include Neo&Bee.

It is threads like this that make Havelock Investments shudder. I cannot think of a more damaging report than this, despite it coming from a known Troglodyte. The numbers appear to be accurate and it paints an absolutely horrific landscape for anyone holding BTC looking to invest. Save for a few assets that have a history of returns, why would a rational human being invest into any crypto securities?



Group #1: You have to risk losing 100% of your investment to low-value human beings who steal BTC from their investors. There seems to be at least a 50% chance this happens in the current environment.


Group #2: If you are lucky enough to avoid these fraudulent investments, you then move on to the realm of incompetence and inexperience, which probably infects no less than 30-40% of all crypto securities.  


Group #3: If you in the -10% of investors who are not broke by now, then you have made it to the final stage of a possible return. I can think of only a few companies that have been worthwhile investments, and that is assuming you sold out of the investment after it made a profit (sell close to the top of the valuation). Showing ASIC MINER here is somewhat misleading given the asset was listed  on HL at the height of the 2013 Gen 1 bonanza at close to 4.5BTC . Anyone who invested from 0.1BTC up to 2BTC and then got out above 4BTC did very well. They also are in a position to recreate some of the magic from 2013. However, even if ASIC MINER does blow the socks off the market again, this is still the lone port in a engulfing storm of investment misery.


Any company that can produce a product or service on time with positive returns for investors is going to do amazingly well here, because there is no competition amongst the liars, thieves, and inexperienced entrepreneurs circulating the market. As much as it pains me to agree with someone like NotLampchop, this industry is an utter disgrace and I would be very worried about the future if I was running a security exchange. If something miraculous does not happen soon, Havelock, Cryptostocks and everyone else is going to run out of their "Greater Fools". The inability to screen out these poorly constructed investment vehicles from the community is another sore point that Havelock and others are guilty of. You brought these investments to the public, you should be held accountable for the state of the industry is in now because of them.


Until major changes are made in this industry, the best advice is clear. Do not invest your BTC and give an exchange or an issuer any of your hard-earned Bitcoin.

I'm updating the thread as we speak, patience!
*And I'll also get to the delisted stuff, like COG and NEOBEE.  If I included other exchanges...

**There, I got to PETA

You spend hours each day in the Peta thread, doing what you're paid to do best, but don't include it here?

In all seriousness, it's a sorry state of affairs all round.  And these losses pale into insignificance when you look back at BTC-TC, Bitfunder, etc.

I mean to tell you that while there are winners in friendly streetcorner shell games, there are no winners here.  Other than the issuers and the traders quick enough to unload their bags on greater fools.  If you're quick and smart enough, enjoy--this isn't about you.  My question's to those who think they're "investing."  They do exist, as funny as that may seem