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Topic: Why does bitcoin hate fiat money so much? - page 3. (Read 4860 times)

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
September 08, 2013, 06:44:46 AM
#37
Quote
Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.

When people don't go to jail for not paying their taxes then you can tell me that taxes are a good thing and isn't stealing, it always amazes me the way government loyalists come here to lecture Bitcoin users about paying their taxes.

When people don't go to jail for not paying their taxes for the car they stole, Lethn, you'll have a point.  Till that happy day?  You gots none.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
September 08, 2013, 06:36:42 AM
#36
I believe:

Bitcoin represents people together supporting an ideal.
People who will one day represent a chapter in history books.

Fiat money represents Debt, and the increase of the same Debt.

Bitcoin is not money, as a Banana is not money but only a Banana.

and you can eat and trade the Banana. get it?
...

I can't eat bitcoins either, can u?
Bitcoin is neither money nor a banana, learn shapes & colorz pl0x.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
September 08, 2013, 06:31:38 AM
#35
Let's see what you've done here.  You've shown that rich people don't hold any money because they invest it, and i'm afraid poor people don't hold any money because, by the time they get their paycheck, all the bills are due -- they pay those off and run up that evol CC & get 1% cash back.  So according to you, inflation doesn't hurt anyone.
Perhaps by "poor people" you mean people who are extremely poor. But there are plenty of poor people who save up to put a down payment on a car. There are plenty of poor people who save to put their kids through college.

Lolz, "saving up for a car down payment"?  Just how many years do you think these "middle-of-the-road poor" spend saving up to buy a car?  If it's less than 2 years, the last 2 years would have devastated their savings by ~3 percent (unless they put all the money in their mattress (savings accounts pay interest) at the start of the first year, in which case they're simply stupid -- they should have bought the car two years ago).  I don't reach for contrived examples, so stop, pl0x.

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As far as eroding the real value of (the poor's) paychecks, that's what raises are for, JoelKatz.  Even the minimum wage gets bumped up once in awhile.
If salaries stayed the same in real terms, employers would have to negotiate reductions in salary to reduce salaries in real terms and every time an employee got a raise, it would be a real increase in their salary. But inflation games the system such that employees have to get regular raises just to stay put. This gives a huge advantage to the employer because he wins if no deal is struck.

This is simply absurd -- you're saying that the employer wins when his workers quit?  If you feel that it's more profitable to search for, interview, train & risk new employees than it is to offer a 2% yearly raise, you should learn more about economics and the real world -- both will be full of surprises.

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The more your job pays and the more educated you are, the more likely that you can negotiate regular increases in your salary to keep up with inflation and even outpace it. The less your job pays, the less educated you are, and the more you are replaceable by others who do the same job, the less likely you can get your salary to keep up with inflation. Lawyers, CEOs, and professional athletes don't have much trouble, but cashiers, fast food cooks, and farm workers find it a bit more difficult.

Awesome incentive to get an education/ become skilled labor?  The poor always get screwed, but they get screwed more in a deflationary system.  Much more.  OOdles more, JoelKatz.

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And, of course, if you're talking about a pension or social security, you cannot negotiate a raise.

And, of course, this is an entirely unrelated issue.  If inflation rates skyrocket, your pension is worth much less than you expected it to be.  This shows that *escalating* inflation rates are bad, but says nothing about inflation as a whole.  That's why economy is like a beauuutiful garden, JoelKatz -- too little water, and it withers, too much -- it rots.  That's why my gardener lives so well Smiley  
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
September 08, 2013, 06:27:25 AM
#34
But this forum is filled with screaming libertards wanting to go back to the good old days of the gold standard, and feels unfairly treated by most of the society as they live under an evil regime called democracy.
I don't see how you can call it a democracy until ever single person has the right to vote!

What about all those poor unfortunate corporations?  Sure, it has been ruled that as persons they have the right to spend as much money as they want in any election - but this entire class of "persons" still, even in this modern day and age, have not been granted the right to vote.

I don't think you should be throwing around the word democracy so lightly.

Wink

legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
September 08, 2013, 05:45:10 AM
#33
society is sick of debt money.
no, the society is built on it. and you thinks its sick.

another point, if you live in the states, just look at ever increasing national debt - does anyone sane think it's healthy?!
unfair question, as must of this forum thinks that the definition of sanity depends on ones standpoint on macro economics.
which makes the answer to the question no, as any sane person by this forums collectively unwritten definitions does thinks its unhealty.

@OP:
i don't hate fiat money, there are many pros and cons in the bitcoin vs. fiat debate, i use and like both.

But this forum is filled with screaming libertards wanting to go back to the good old days of the gold standard, and feels unfairly treated by most of the society as they live under an evil regime called democracy.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
September 08, 2013, 05:33:41 AM
#32
Quote
Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.

When people don't go to jail for not paying their taxes then you can tell me that taxes are a good thing and isn't stealing, it always amazes me the way government loyalists come here to lecture Bitcoin users about paying their taxes.
hero member
Activity: 613
Merit: 500
Mintcoin: Get some
September 08, 2013, 04:02:16 AM
#31
Legally, Fiat money has no value:
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx

How can you be taxed on something that has no value?
full member
Activity: 235
Merit: 100
September 07, 2013, 09:26:57 PM
#30
I believe:

Bitcoin represents people together supporting an ideal.
People who will one day represent a chapter in history books.

Fiat money represents Debt, and the increase of the same Debt.

Bitcoin is not money, as a Banana is not money but only a Banana.

and you can eat and trade the Banana. get it?

if you didn't get it:
Fiat money is only paper and coins, and you can not eat paper or coins, at least not if you want to live healthy
and yes, you can trade your papers and your coins, but your papers and coins are worth the value the Banks, the Government wish it to be.
They can print paper and coins, and buy mansions and yatchs. If you print fiat in your printer, you will not only face jail time, but also be named 'the dumbest man of the day', oh but 'they' can print fiat money as much as they want, even if you don't want. Yes you can trade your papers and coins for Bananas, but one day you will need more papers for a Banana.

And the day will come that no one will give you a Banana for your papers and coins.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
September 07, 2013, 08:41:30 PM
#29
Let's see what you've done here.  You've shown that rich people don't hold any money because they invest it, and i'm afraid poor people don't hold any money because, by the time they get their paycheck, all the bills are due -- they pay those off and run up that evol CC & get 1% cash back.  So according to you, inflation doesn't hurt anyone.
Perhaps by "poor people" you mean people who are extremely poor. But there are plenty of poor people who save up to put a down payment on a car. There are plenty of poor people who save to put their kids through college.

Quote
As far as eroding the real value of (the poor's) paychecks, that's what raises are for, JoelKatz.  Even the minimum wage gets bumped up once in awhile.
If salaries stayed the same in real terms, employers would have to negotiate reductions in salary to reduce salaries in real terms and every time an employee got a raise, it would be a real increase in their salary. But inflation games the system such that employees have to get regular raises just to stay put. This gives a huge advantage to the employer because he wins if no deal is struck.

The more your job pays and the more educated you are, the more likely that you can negotiate regular increases in your salary to keep up with inflation and even outpace it. The less your job pays, the less educated you are, and the more you are replaceable by others who do the same job, the less likely you can get your salary to keep up with inflation. Lawyers, CEOs, and professional athletes don't have much trouble, but cashiers, fast food cooks, and farm workers find it a bit more difficult.

And, of course, if you're talking about a pension or social security, you cannot negotiate a raise.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
September 07, 2013, 08:25:43 PM
#28
Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.
It's an indirect tax only on people who hold money though.
...
Err...  Those are called "rich people."
No, they're called suckers. Rich people are smart enough not to hold money. Instead they hold real estate, stock, art, gold, and so on.

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You would like to tax the people who *do not* hold any money, the dirt-poor?
Dirt poor people don't receive a paycheck? They don't have bank accounts?

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Other than being pretty hard to do, also seems a bit nasty, no?
You have it completely backwards. Inflation disproportionately burdens the poor, particularly by eroding the real value of their paychecks.

Let's see what you've done here.  You've shown that rich people don't hold any money because they invest it, and i'm afraid poor people don't hold any money because, by the time they get their paycheck, all the bills are due -- they pay those off and run up that evol CC & get 1% cash back.  So according to you, inflation doesn't hurt anyone.  

As far as eroding the real value of (the poor's) paychecks, that's what raises are for, JoelKatz.  Even the minimum wage gets bumped up once in awhile.  

The Moar U know, JoelKatz.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
September 07, 2013, 08:17:24 PM
#27
Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.
It's an indirect tax only on people who hold money though.
...
Err...  Those are called "rich people."
No, they're called suckers. Rich people are smart enough not to hold money, which they know loses value. Instead they hold things they expect to gain value, such as real estate, stock, art, gold, and so on.

Quote
You would like to tax the people who *do not* hold any money, the dirt-poor?
Dirt poor people don't receive a paycheck? They don't have bank accounts? Inflation doesn't tax the dirt poor because the dirt poor have no value to take. It hits people just above that level the hardest.

Quote
Other than being pretty hard to do, also seems a bit nasty, no?
You have it completely backwards. Inflation disproportionately burdens the poor, particularly by eroding the real value of their paychecks and secondarily by eroding their savings.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
September 07, 2013, 07:42:40 PM
#26
Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.
It's an indirect tax only on people who hold money though.
...

Err...  Those are called "rich people."  You would like to tax the people who *do not* hold any money, the dirt-poor?  Other than being pretty hard to do, also seems a bit nasty, no?

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
September 07, 2013, 07:34:44 PM
#25
Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.
It's an indirect tax only on people who hold money though. If you tax windows, people will want fewer windows. Taxes that burden people in some kind of a just way are one thing, but taxes on specific, avoidable things cause people to dislike those things. Hidden taxes are even worse because they undermine the Democratic process that's supposed to control taxation and spending. Inflation is the worst type of tax -- one that is hidden, burdens the poor more than the wealthy (because they need to get raises in their salary just to keep it the same), but is avoidable by those who understand it.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
September 07, 2013, 05:16:54 PM
#24
Because it can be hyperinflationed at will, just by printing tons of it. Printing more money=stealing the value from what i have. And i don't like someone stealing value from me.

Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.

Bitcoin doesn't allow to print more money, it even helps to evade taxes. It's the biggest disadvantage of Bitcoin.

☑ Printing more money = indirect tax
☐ Taxes is a good thing
☑ most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing
☑ Bitcoin doesn't allow to print more money, it even helps to evade taxes


problem with taxes is that everyone of them gets abused before the ink dries - yes we need everyone to pitch in for certain things to keep going but its like 90% BS these days and getting deeper everyday

that is why there is fiat..  so they can keep overspending.   Instead of waiting to collect taxes, they just go ahead and spend 3 years worth and worry about getting the money later..   paying taxes is more of a control tool in the USA now anyway.  They spend a trillion more than than collect each year now so what's the point?  The point is to control and scare people

Time is money, but money is freedom.  They don't want everyone to sit on a stash of cash since it is a lot harder to get those people to kiss their boots for loose change
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1000
September 07, 2013, 05:09:39 PM
#23
Because it can be hyperinflationed at will, just by printing tons of it. Printing more money=stealing the value from what i have. And i don't like someone stealing value from me.

Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.

Bitcoin doesn't allow to print more money, it even helps to evade taxes. It's the biggest disadvantage of Bitcoin.

☑ Printing more money = indirect tax
☐ Taxes is a good thing
☑ most of people are selfish
☑ they don't like this
☑ they call this stealing
☑ Bitcoin doesn't allow to print more money
☑ it even helps to evade taxes
☐ It's the biggest disadvantage of Bitcoin
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
September 07, 2013, 04:35:39 PM
#22
Because it can be hyperinflationed at will, just by printing tons of it. Printing more money=stealing the value from what i have. And i don't like someone stealing value from me.

Printing more money = indirect tax. Taxes is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of people are selfish, they don't like this, they call this stealing.

Bitcoin doesn't allow to print more money, it even helps to evade taxes. It's the biggest disadvantage of Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1008
If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
September 07, 2013, 04:13:12 PM
#21
Because it can be hyperinflationed at will, just by printing tons of it. Printing more money=stealing the value from what i have. And i don't like someone stealing value from me.
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
September 07, 2013, 03:57:30 PM
#20
I think hate it the wrong word.  Anger it is more like it.

I think this (directly from the horse's mouth) sum up the reason for our fear/anger/hate nicely:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?id=BASE

legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1000
September 07, 2013, 03:47:13 PM
#19
Bitcoin hates nothing and no one.  Some of the bitcoiners don't understand how fiat works, and, like most dull normals, hate what they can't understand.
Throughout history, mankind had a love/hate relationship with money -- from Biblical "... love of money is the root of all evil" to money changers, bankers & the rich, money was simultaneously envied & loathed by the great unwashed.
Nothing much changed:  The same bitcoiners who hate bankers are lending bitcoins at hyper-usurious rates, plan on becoming filthy rich without putting in work, and ape the real financial sector in every way open to them -- from trading on mock stocks exchanges to profiteering from currency instability to swindling each other with ponzi schemes.
It's a bit of inept imitation, a bit of a cargo cult, and plenty of envy-fueled hate -- of the scammers who did it first & did it right.

That was better than average.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
September 07, 2013, 03:36:04 PM
#18
Bitcoin hates nothing and no one.  Some of the bitcoiners don't understand how fiat works, and, like most dull normals, hate what they can't understand.
Throughout history, mankind had a love/hate relationship with money -- from Biblical "... love of money is the root of all evil" to money changers, bankers & the rich, money was simultaneously envied & loathed by the great unwashed.
Nothing much changed:  The same bitcoiners who hate bankers are lending bitcoins at hyper-usurious rates, plan on becoming filthy rich without putting in work, and ape the real financial sector in every way open to them -- from trading on mock stocks exchanges to profiteering from currency instability to swindling each other with ponzi schemes.
It's a bit of inept imitation, a bit of a cargo cult, and plenty of envy-fueled hate -- of the scammers who did it first & did it right.
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