Topic: Why has the left wing abandoned Israel? (Read 5647 times)

Ha! "many are unaware of reality there, and basing their opinions on misinformation and a lack of accurate information."

This accurately depicts you, clearly. Israel is is a beacon of light in a dark part of the world and helps the Palestinians more than anyone else, the cause of the Palestinian suffering is Hamas and their own hatred

They can ban flights just like that?   

The Obama administration also banned flights to Israel as an attempt to strong-arm Israel into agreeing to a cease fire.

i don't think politics is as simple as that. it's not just because the american public is stupid; it's because politics has obfuscated information, making the public less informed because shit is confusing. on top of that, there's so much entertainment/information being spread around that it's hard to keep abreast on all the topics, especially when you are working full time.

Its mind blowing how the idiot public in the US allow this to happen.
Its too bad that there isnt a law stating that: Every politician has to have an immediate family member in active combat on the ground, if said politician votes on supportive war initiatives.

Lets see how fast the chicken hawks in Washington would vote for war then.
Its easy to gamble with someone elses money...

there was an episode on the daily show last week talking about how john kerry was urging a ceasfire (on both sides).. yet we are stocking israel with the weapons they are using to kill palestinians. that's why the U.S. has no right in policing other countries, because we enable them after all.

On Monday Obama approved to send 225 million dollars in emergency aid to Israel.
This money is to help replenish the rockets they used in their "Iron Dome" defense system.
Do you guys think they will also use some of the money to replace rockets that they shot into Gaza to murder people?

Are you happy to see your tax dollars being spent in appropriate ways?

1. That's great, but I would suggest securing peace first and foremost, and only then looking to whether or not you're happy with the spoils. The longer that takes, the more people will die for no good reason.

2. Sorry that I had to ask, but you kind of deserved it after your answer; and you are just deflecting the argument with this answer, instead of explaining how you expect Palestinians to survive if your suggestion was implemented.

1.Many Israeli are tired of war and want peace, but they want a fair peace.

2.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive

There you go again... there is no one now that doesn't want peace, except Israel and the US.

We can go back in history and we will certainly find plenty of flaws on every side, but that won't help solve the conflict at the moment. And saying that a two state solution should be implemented with the current territory is completely ignoring what I just said about Palestinians being cut off from farmland, water, from access to education and health facilities, places of work, and even each other in some places. Do you even care about them at all?

It's a good question, but i think the only way to have peace is to be comprehensive with Israel cause now near of everybody is against them. Israel was attacked by his neighbor many time, fortunately they lose (or all the jews would be killed, for example Nasser in Egypt said "we will cut jews throat !"...). I  think they deserve what they have now and we should make a two state solution with the border reality on the ground.

And don't forget the Palestinian in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria who have their life there now and still second class citizen...

1. Sure, you have a right to your opinion, just as they have the right to theirs; but to dismiss them without even knowing why they have their position is not a logical stance, and neither is the "might makes right" approach, at least if we want any plans of a peaceful life in the region anytime in the future. Further, as I said before, the proceedings are mostly public and you have access to voting and often reasoning behind votes, so you can easily delve into it if you're interested.

2. If there is a broad understanding that foreign diplomacy/action/intervention will in fact improve the situation and lead to a deescalation of conflict, like in this situation, I see no reason for it not to happen. And yes, every minority counts, be it the Kurds, the Catalans, the Palestinians, or whomever else.

3. But the building of the wall is a conscious choice of annexing land over peace, not a step towards peace.

Further, the wall isn't even complete, so there is no telling how much more land will be taken from Palestinians. And all that assuming Israel won't continue building settlements outside the wall, for which there is no assurance, unfortunately; Israel's constant announcement of further settlements does nothing to help here. Another point that this ignores is the direct effects the wall is already having on Palestinians; at some points the wall cuts them off the farmland they've depended on so far for survival, at others from access to water sources, all of those now conveniently on the Israeli side of the wall.

You don't want a treaty that is unfair for Israel, but is this fair to the Palestinians?

Also, it should be stated that the wall is illegal under international law, especially considering Israel is the occupying power.

One must be careful to compare apples to apples in such metrics.  In this case one should, by rights, be comparing the Fatah crooks who sell their people down the river with the Egyptian military and political elite who do more or less the same thing.  Egypt is a bigger country so there are more mouths to feed both in terms of caloric input for the masses, and in terms of bribes/kickbacks to the corrupt sellouts of their respective societies.

is funny cause gaza people are richer than Egyptian 

Ah, I see!  A kinder, gentler Warsaw ghetto is being implemented in Gaza.  Nice argument you've got there.  Small wonder it isn't really flying except in some segments of Israel and the U.S.

The question should be more, why hasn't the right abandoned Israel?

1.I have the right to not take care of other country opinion ? I have the right to not consider what my government do legitimate (often a debate here) but i can't have an opinion on foreign government ? Every government in UN defend it's own interest...

2.Sorry, i believed you are the kind of people thinking "Foreign interference is always immoral". I'm fine with both (interference can be acceptable or is never acceptable) but not double-thinking. So you support foreign interference ? (I just want to know your axiomatics) I hope you support kurdish Independence too, cause every minority matter right ?  

3.I want peace too, but i don't think the fair treaty is a treaty against Israel. Israel is building a wall, so they won't go farther.

1. You don't agree with practically every country's opinion, so you attack their integrity? And you accuse me of using logical fallacies? And, "It's the powerful country opinion that matter"? Right, might makes right... I hoped people would know better by now.

2. The situation is immoral because people's lives are being denigrated and often lost in a needless bloody conflict. It doesn't matter if it is in Israel and Palestine, in South Africa, in Indonesia, in Chechnya, in Australia, or in the US with its now gone native population; it's wrong and we should do anything within our power to stop it, wherever it may happen.

3. What do you mean "find a way to defend themselves"? As I just stated, everyone else wants peace, except the US and Israel. Check it up; that information is public.

1.You seem don't understand that the UN is just a place where corrupted government who nobody give a fuck give their opinion. It's the powerful country opinion that matter.

2.What's make political interference moral here ? It's immoral only when it come from the west ? Double-thinking no ?

3.Wait and see, i hope they will find a way to defend themselves.

1. You might not like the fact that nearly everyone supports a return to the 1967 borders and a peaceful resolution to the conflict, or agree with the reasons that lead to it, but that doesn't make their conclusions invalid; and more to the point, the truth is if both sides are unable to reach a peaceful conclusion by themselves, someone has to step in. I mean, what's the alternative? The conflict continuing until there are no Palestinians left, and Israel takes over everything?

2. The Israelis apparently weren't though, because they quickly caved in to US demands that they stand down.