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Topic: Why i will support bigger blocks - and you should too - page 7. (Read 8655 times)

legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1006
The 1mb cap wasn't introduced because of concerns over the bandwidth requirements for nodes, it was intended to be an anti-spam measure, but apparently it failed miserably in that goal.  The blockchain didn't "grow huge" before the cap was put in place.  Also, it's not a "solution" at all if it doesn't solve the problem of limiting the amount of fees the miners can collect.  Nodes won't be any use at all without sufficiently incentivised miners to secure the network.  In order to generate more fees for miners, it will be necessary to accommodate more transactions over time.  Users want to get their transactions on a blockchain.  If Bitcoin isn't the simplest and most convenient way to do that because you're funneling transactions into your lightning colostomy bag network, another coin will come along that hasn't been artificially crippled and doesn't rely on a third party bolted on top.  If that coin turns out to be a more attractive proposition for users, what's their reason to continue using Bitcoin?  If users are then transacting on another network, why are miners going to stick around to secure this one?

Third party layers should be strictly reserved for micropayments and transactions that don't include a fee.  And as much as small block proponents obsess about micropayments, they really aren't the issue.  Even after they're swept under the carpet, Bitcoin still needs to support more than two-thirds of a floppy disk every ten minutes.  If it doesn't, something else will.  

Why would users care if their transacations went over the blockchain or not? All they want is to transfer money.

*lol* That's one of the funniest statements you gave in this thread. Sure, we only want to transfer money, let's use paypal or western union maybe. I think you don't get it. Bitcoin is the currency and i don't think that the majority of bitcoins want bitcoin to be split into a bitcoin high amount transfer system and some altcoin bum amount transfer system.

And why do we need to increase transacations to increase mining fees? When we could just increase the fees?

I think the greed is speaking out of you clearly. Just increase the fee... it doesn't matter what effect that has on bitcoin adoption. Guess it would be great for the lightning network owners... higher fee means more customers and that means more earnings for the ligthning network owners.

Well, i'm glad we aren't all lightning network owners. Roll Eyes


I do not agree with either parts of your post. Filling up a block costs money, and I doubt that someone would be able to make huge blocks without that costing them a lot. Even if this was the case, a simple higher cap can be implemented to prevent this from happening.
There is no risking with a proper hard fork. Why risk using third party solutions; i.e. meaning we stop relying on the protocol itself?

So you are advocating a even higher block size if the spammers fill up the 8MB blocks?

And you await the spammers to fill a considerable amount of 8MB blocks? What about no block limit at all? Why spamming then? Minimum fee would ensure that it is costly and it would be useless. So everyone who wants to do it would be free to do... only it would not make sense.

You have not? What about those recent spam attacks that happened? A lot of people were complaining about their transactions not going through because the blocks were full. The market did not adapt that time, nor do I understand why people think that higher fees are going to be beneficial to Bitcoin.

The market did not adapt? Are you kidding? The only people that complained were people that used no fees or very low fees. Those transactions should not be on the blockchain to begin with. They are SPAM.
Which shows that the current anti SPAM system works.

*lol* You speak like you never used fiat. Yes, you can use fiat without fees. And yes, bitcoin started to replace a good chunk of it.

Naming legitimate transactions spam is ridiculous. But i think i won't get emotional. Your interests shine through pretty clearly.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1006
The main problem is fewer and fewer people will be able to run nodes. Hard disk space is definitely not a problem, it gets cheaper, now bandwidth, thats another history, i dont think moore's law follows there, the bandwith development is not as steady as HDD development.

look at Nielsen's Law:

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/

we dont talk about 100 MB blocks - we talk about 6, 8 or 16 MB blocks in a few years (when they are actually full). hundreds of millions of people can support such nodes today. no problem.

Tell me, how long does it take to initialize your full node today on your particular hardware? I am talking about a fresh install.

How long does it take to re-index the blocks that are already on disk  if your Bitcoin core happens to shut down ungracefully?

If you think these times are not a problem, then I'd like to know what kind of ninja hardware you are using.

And you think that will solve somehow by letting the blocks stay at 1MB? What kind of currency would you have when only some transactions can go through?

You would solve nothing but destroying what you want to keep.

But yes... the downloading of blocks is way too slow. I don't know why that is. I mean every filesharing p2p software is faster most of the time. Maybe it needs only having more nodes connected to?

...

A quick check let me read that the versions from 0.10 download the blockchain sequencial. Such allowing faster downloads. Guess they work on speeding up things.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
that is somehow true but when you only have two choices 1 MB or 8 MB and you have to choose (because time is running out), i would take 8MB (so XT sry).

i would like to have 8 MB with core but that is not possible.

Please explain what you mean by "time is running out"?

we already hit that 1 MB limit in a small stresstest. you need time to distribute the new software. it takes months before enough people have updated their software.

when we see an influx of millions of new people, you cant begin with this rollout. you have to be prepared because otherwise transactions will stuck (cost alot!). this is the reason of the XT release.

i would like to see another solution too but 3-4 devs are against all blocksize-changes.

So you want to fork just because we reached the limit one or two times last month?
Take a look at this chart pal: https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size


The reason why the big-blockians are calling for an increase in early 2016 is that at the current pace, the network will get saturated in mid-2016, and "traffic jams" will become a recurrent "feature". They claim (and I fully agree) that such state will be disastrous for bitcoin. Thus, that proposal is the same thing as denying the increase: it will result in saturation and traffic jams by mid-2016.

The Blockstream devs openly want that to happen because they believe that a "fee market" is necessary and will somehow make bitcoin better, and that the traffic must be prevented from growing. Delaying the increase until 2017 will lead to that.

full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
that is somehow true but when you only have two choices 1 MB or 8 MB and you have to choose (because time is running out), i would take 8MB (so XT sry).

i would like to have 8 MB with core but that is not possible.

Please explain what you mean by "time is running out"?

we already hit that 1 MB limit in a small stresstest. you need time to distribute the new software. it takes months before enough people have updated their software.

when we see an influx of millions of new people, you cant begin with this rollout. you have to be prepared because otherwise transactions will stuck (cost alot!). this is the reason of the XT release.

i would like to see another solution too but 3-4 devs are against all blocksize-changes.

So you want to fork just because we reached the limit one or two times last month?
Take a look at this chart pal: https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size



Very rare that i see a post that suit its poster's username.

Bravo.
hero member
Activity: 576
Merit: 503
When all it comes down to is : they dont like the fact that this fork is NOT being led by bitcoin core devs.

I don't like it either. I believe users and miners want to stick with Core given a choice. I would very much prefer Core devs to initiate "bigger blocks" fork, but they were rejecting it because they believe it's not a long term solution, and for some reason, they don't want to implement this "quick fix" to buy time while they work out this "long term solution". Now XT has given each of us a voice and it's everyone's own decision to vote. I am waiting for developments and I will vote when the time comes.

That's fair enough, and describes my position exactly as well.
It would only need core devs to throw us a bone to stop all this nonsense, but well ... egos.
hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
that is somehow true but when you only have two choices 1 MB or 8 MB and you have to choose (because time is running out), i would take 8MB (so XT sry).

i would like to have 8 MB with core but that is not possible.

Please explain what you mean by "time is running out"?

we already hit that 1 MB limit in a small stresstest. you need time to distribute the new software. it takes months before enough people have updated their software.

when we see an influx of millions of new people, you cant begin with this rollout. you have to be prepared because otherwise transactions will stuck (cost alot!). this is the reason of the XT release.

i would like to see another solution too but 3-4 devs are against all blocksize-changes.

So you want to fork just because we reached the limit one or two times last month?
Take a look at this chart pal: https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
that is somehow true but when you only have two choices 1 MB or 8 MB and you have to choose (because time is running out), i would take 8MB (so XT sry).

i would like to have 8 MB with core but that is not possible.

Please explain what you mean by "time is running out"?

we already hit that 1 MB limit in a small stresstest. you need time to distribute the new software. it takes months before enough people have updated their software.

when we see an influx of millions of new people, you cant begin with this rollout. you have to be prepared because otherwise transactions will stuck (cost alot!). this is the reason of the XT release.

i would like to see another solution too but 3-4 devs are against all blocksize-changes.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
that is somehow true but when you only have two choices 1 MB or 8 MB and you have to choose (because time is running out), i would take 8MB (so XT sry).

i would like to have 8 MB with core but that is not possible.
Wrong:
1) We are not running out of time as the average block size is not near 1 MB.
2) Read BIP 100 and 102.

Core is implementing bigger blocks as well and possibly even sooner than XT.
hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
that is somehow true but when you only have two choices 1 MB or 8 MB and you have to choose (because time is running out), i would take 8MB (so XT sry).

i would like to have 8 MB with core but that is not possible.

Please explain what you mean by "time is running out"?
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
that is somehow true but when you only have two choices 1 MB or 8 MB and you have to choose (because time is running out), i would take 8MB (so XT sry).

i would like to have 8 MB with core but that is not possible.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
Supporting bigger blocks =/= supporting Bitcoin XT. However, it looks like only a handful of people around here realize this. I can't stress it enough though. Obviously pools from China are going to like that upgrade once other miners start getting (more) orphans, so this isn't really a surprise.
As long as Hearn doesn't call the shots, I'm fine.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Why is Bitcoin forking?

Satoshi’s plan brought us all together. It changed the lives of hundreds of thousands of us across the globe. Some of us quit our jobs, others devoted their spare time to the project, still others founded companies and even moved across the world. It’s the idea of ordinary people paying each other via a block chain that created and united this global community.

That’s the vision I signed up for. That’s the vision Gavin Andresen signed up for. That’s the vision so many developers and startup founders and evangelists and users around the world signed up for.

...

A long time ago, Satoshi put in place a temporary kludge: he limited the size of each block to one megabyte. He did this in order to keep the block chain small in the early days, until what we now call SPV wallets were built (‘client only mode’). As seen in the quote above, it was never meant to be permanent and he talked about phasing it out when the time came. In the end it wasn’t needed — I wrote the first SPV implementation in 2011 and with my esteemed colleague Andreas Schildbach, together we built the first and still most popular Android wallet. Since then SPV wallets have been made for every platform. So Satoshi’s reason for the temporary limit has been resolved a long time ago.

https://medium.com/@octskyward/why-is-bitcoin-forking-d647312d22c1



In Satoshis words i trust    Smiley


Not a cult? Gotta be more responsible for your own decision making in life. May some bad shit happen, don't blame Satoshi. This isn't a game.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
Why is Bitcoin forking?

Satoshi’s plan brought us all together. It changed the lives of hundreds of thousands of us across the globe. Some of us quit our jobs, others devoted their spare time to the project, still others founded companies and even moved across the world. It’s the idea of ordinary people paying each other via a block chain that created and united this global community.

That’s the vision I signed up for. That’s the vision Gavin Andresen signed up for. That’s the vision so many developers and startup founders and evangelists and users around the world signed up for.

...

A long time ago, Satoshi put in place a temporary kludge: he limited the size of each block to one megabyte. He did this in order to keep the block chain small in the early days, until what we now call SPV wallets were built (‘client only mode’). As seen in the quote above, it was never meant to be permanent and he talked about phasing it out when the time came. In the end it wasn’t needed — I wrote the first SPV implementation in 2011 and with my esteemed colleague Andreas Schildbach, together we built the first and still most popular Android wallet. Since then SPV wallets have been made for every platform. So Satoshi’s reason for the temporary limit has been resolved a long time ago.

https://medium.com/@octskyward/why-is-bitcoin-forking-d647312d22c1



In Satoshis words i trust    Smiley
hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
Bitcoin without a block size limit could handle everything. Only because this limit was implemented we became problems. We easily could fight the "bloating" by implementing output related fees.

According to the chart there is still a limit when block size reaches 8GB, so it still doesn't scale...


So you are saying Bitcoin doesn't work now? I wonder who is spreading the FUD now?

What are you speaking about? Where did i wrote something like that? You were the one who claimed we would need an additional network so that bitcoin could become a high fee transaction system. I would not be surprised if you actually would be one of these devs with goal conflict.


I believe that if there is demand for more transactions the market will find a way to deal with it. Either by a increase of fees or something like the lightning network.
I never said "we need the lightning network". 

You said this:

So we need to wait for a third party network to make bitcoin work. Seriously?  Roll Eyes


I interpret that as you don't think Bitcoin is working properly now?


Why using privately run third party solutions when we have the original. Only because some greedy persons want to break bitcoin for their own good doesn't mean that all bitcoiners will support them.

And about massive block chain grow do you speak? You speak like the blocks are full constantly. They aren't. And spamming only works because the fees are increasing then. So how do you get the idea that there would be an uncontrolled grow without a block size limit? Where should that come from suddenly?

I never claimed that the blocks will be full constantly, but obviously the block chain will increase in size since people will be able to make transactions without fees.


Maybe the market don't want to be forced using lightning networks? Roll Eyes

And this adaption... it has led to enough confusion already. Didn't you read all the threads about newbies and even established members that got their transaction stuck because of spamming suddenly started? That surely will help bitcoin adoption. Roll Eyes

About the options... that's mostly right. We often enough only have the choice to use the less worst option. Because the best option, that you think it is, doesn't have the needed support yet.

If you don't like the lightning network feel free to deveolpe a better alternative. The market won't force you to use lightning network.
And people complaining about transactions getting stuck don't know how bitcoin works - they are under the impression that they should be able to use bitcoin without any fees.
Fortunately it seems like they have adapted and increased their fees since I don't see any people complaining now.





legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
Are the core devs even doing anything about this?  Or is Gavin the only one being pro active?  Is the core devs policy to wait until the mempool is permanently backlogged then rush out a fix?
FUD.
How about you read BIP100 and BIP102 before spreading wrong information around here. People tend to take it seriously without doing their own research. Essentially the core developers are also planing to increase the limit however their approach is different and not related to XT.
As I've stated this multiple times: supporting bigger blocks does not necessarily mean that you support XT. I for one, support bigger blocks but do not support XT nor Mike Hearn at all and neither should you.

BIP 100:
Quote
Protocol changes proposed:
Hard fork to remove 1MB block size limit.
Simultaneously, add a new soft fork limit of 2MB.
Schedule the hard fork on testnet for September 1, 2015.
Schedule the hard fork on bitcoin main chain for December 11, 2015.
Default miner block size becomes 1MB (easily changeable by miner at any time, as today).
Changing the 2MB limit is accomplished in a manner similar to BIP 34, a one­way lock­in upgrade with a 12,000 block (3 month) threshold.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1006
Are the core devs even doing anything about this?  Or is Gavin the only one being pro active?  Is the core devs policy to wait until the mempool is permanently backlogged then rush out a fix?

Core developers are divided in two parties. One part will increase blocks and the other part won't. The first part will develop bitcoin-xt, in case bitcoin-qt doesn't get updated, the second part of developers want to push the lighning network. They will earn money when bitcoin is crippled. Simple as that. Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1006
I trust the original, unhindered Bitcoin implementation to scale far better than an artificially crippled implementation with a new bit bolted on top. 

The original? Aren't we running the original now?

He means the original without the artificial 1MB block size limit.

Saying you support a 1MB limit and the lightning network is like saying you want to limit the amount of material you can pass in a bowel movement and fit a colostomy bag to deal with the rest because that's somehow better. 

Get rid of the artificial bottleneck and let nature take its course.


That's a bad analogy. We need to have limits otherwise the block chain would grow so massive that most people would not be able to run full nodes.
And what's the point of risking that when we can have third party solutions?

Why using privately run third party solutions when we have the original. Only because some greedy persons want to break bitcoin for their own good doesn't mean that all bitcoiners will support them.

And about massive block chain grow do you speak? You speak like the blocks are full constantly. They aren't. And spamming only works because the fees are increasing then. So how do you get the idea that there would be an uncontrolled grow without a block size limit? Where should that come from suddenly?

It does not solve anything? That is a understatement. 8 MB blocks should help us gain the needed time. Who knows exactly when something like the lightning network or sidechains are going to be fully functional.
The developers aren't really saying much about a timeline. Bigger blocks will be needed in the future even with other solutions. Why should we wait when it is much easier to do the fork now?
The fork is not dangerous at all if we use the proper consensus rules.

What needed time?
I haven't noticed that we have any urgent issues with full blocks?
If there are full blocks the market will adapt and either pay higher fees or develop alternatives like lightning network.

And so what if 90% thinks we should have bigger blocks? I still don't think it's the best possible option.
That's like saying just because the majority of the people voted for Obama makes him the best possible president.


Maybe the market don't want to be forced using lightning networks? Roll Eyes

And this adaption... it has led to enough confusion already. Didn't you read all the threads about newbies and even established members that got their transaction stuck because of spamming suddenly started? That surely will help bitcoin adoption. Roll Eyes

About the options... that's mostly right. We often enough only have the choice to use the less worst option. Because the best option, that you think it is, doesn't have the needed support yet.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1006

Um... it would make these spam attacks stop instantly at least. These spammers might be very well miners, a corporation of them maybe, and they seem to test out the best way to raise the fees permanently that way. At the moment they try to spam often so that nobody knows if he has to take a high fee or not. Raising the fee overall to prevent risk at the end.

The spam attacks will stop once we reach a acceptable level of fee's. Currently it's possible to make transactions without paying any fees. That is not good for Bitcoin as it makes it easy to bloat the blockchain.


I don't know where you got the idea from that bitcoin doesn't scale. The max block size is arbitrary from the start. Im not sure what you speak about.

Please explain how the block size will scale with a hard fork increasing the block size to 8MB?



So we need to wait for a third party network to make bitcoin work. Seriously? Roll Eyes

Really... its no wonder that so many bitcoiners think that the lightning network bitcoin core developers have their own agenda in this.

And what dangerous fork? Are you spreading FUD here?

So you are saying Bitcoin doesn't work now? I wonder who is spreading the FUD now?




The idea is incremental of 8mb in synchrony with moore's law. This way we should be able to scale up as far as we need to.

Though i wonder why having a bottle neck at all. I mean when spammers want to spam then they will do so anyway. They could either spam 1MB blocks or 8MB ones. But 8MB ones would be more expensive so less rewarding. So why not simply removing the blocklimit completely? I mean there is no reason to spam then anymore. The minimum fee would be sufficient. And as long as the blocks aren't filled completely all advertising spam will go through anyway.

I think the limit can be dropped. That's something we learned from the spamming.



The fees must stay low tho.. im not saying they shouldn't be a bit higher if needed, but definitely they must feel LOW or else it will be a mass failure.

Exactly. Bitcoin with a high fee reward with nowadays amount of transactions would mean bitcoin is dead. I can't believe how shortsighted some people are only because they run their own agenda. Don't they realize that their business model is based on bitcoin completely too?
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1006

Um... it would make these spam attacks stop instantly at least. These spammers might be very well miners, a corporation of them maybe, and they seem to test out the best way to raise the fees permanently that way. At the moment they try to spam often so that nobody knows if he has to take a high fee or not. Raising the fee overall to prevent risk at the end.

The spam attacks will stop once we reach a acceptable level of fee's. Currently it's possible to make transactions without paying any fees. That is not good for Bitcoin as it makes it easy to bloat the blockchain.

You sound like you know that this is the case. I fear the spam attacks are done for that really. What a mess. We wanted to create a currency that is not controlled and now some greedy bast... can force the transaction fee higher.

I don't know where you got the idea from that bitcoin doesn't scale. The max block size is arbitrary from the start. Im not sure what you speak about.

Please explain how the block size will scale with a hard fork increasing the block size to 8MB?

Bitcoin without a block size limit could handle everything. Only because this limit was implemented we became problems. We easily could fight the "bloating" by implementing output related fees.


So we need to wait for a third party network to make bitcoin work. Seriously? Roll Eyes

Really... its no wonder that so many bitcoiners think that the lightning network bitcoin core developers have their own agenda in this.

And what dangerous fork? Are you spreading FUD here?

So you are saying Bitcoin doesn't work now? I wonder who is spreading the FUD now?

What are you speaking about? Where did i wrote something like that? You were the one who claimed we would need an additional network so that bitcoin could become a high fee transaction system. I would not be surprised if you actually would be one of these devs with goal conflict.
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