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Topic: Why i will support bigger blocks - and you should too - page 9. (Read 8632 times)

full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Still don't understand why people don't want to let the block limit increase

Because of group of ppl who's involved with sidechain project happens to be.... core devs. Look it up and see they're acting like children when Gavin want to move forward with the blocksize increase debate. They left the community no choice but to support Gavin.

Then they come here to censor anything BitcoinXT related ,.... calling it altcoin. What do they expect? waiting for them like they fucking own the bitcoin network?
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000
Still don't understand why people don't want to let the block limit increase
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
more than 64% of total hashing power are in favor of 8 MB blocks. i dont know if KnC miner is already included here - so it could be more than 75%.

https://de.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gryjy/slushs_pool_endorses_8mb_blocks/

While I certainly support larger blocks, I'd err on the side of caution with those percentages.  The pool operators may well be pushing for 8mb blocks, but there's no guarantee that everyone currently contributing hash power to those pools will go along with it.  The numbers will be subject to change as miners switch pools to suit their blocksize preference.

We're already seeing some desperate characters on the forum trying to make out like the contest is already over, but it's early days yet.  XT may only represent 3% of the nodes at the moment, but it was only 1.5% the other day, so the momentum is building and will most likely continue to do so.  This will probably go on for a couple of weeks, if not months, before we can start to get a sense of the real picture as to which blocksize will win support overall.  I'm confident it's going to be 8mb, though.

mining pools? where the fuck you're coming from? 2012?

This is 2015, there aint any mining pool thats worth considerable hashing power.

We're talking about industrial miners here. Not mining pools..... I'm sorry if i offend those USB miners.... i know your size is so tiny.
legendary
Activity: 3724
Merit: 3063
Leave no FUD unchallenged
more than 64% of total hashing power are in favor of 8 MB blocks. i dont know if KnC miner is already included here - so it could be more than 75%.

https://de.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gryjy/slushs_pool_endorses_8mb_blocks/

While I certainly support larger blocks, I'd err on the side of caution with those percentages.  The pool operators may well be pushing for 8mb blocks, but there's no guarantee that everyone currently contributing hash power to those pools will go along with it.  The numbers will be subject to change as miners switch pools to suit their blocksize preference.

We're already seeing some desperate characters on the forum trying to make out like the contest is already over, but it's early days yet.  XT may only represent 3% of the nodes at the moment, but it was only 1.5% the other day, so the momentum is building and will most likely continue to do so.  This will probably go on for a couple of weeks, if not months, before we can start to get a sense of the real picture as to which blocksize will win support overall.  I'm confident it's going to be 8mb, though.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100

Xapo SUPPORTS larger blocks:


“We support Gavin's proposal as we think it is important for Bitcoin's growth and development to get ahead of this hard cap before it is a problem. Many of us are already circumventing this by processing as many transactions as possible off the blockchain which makes Bitcoin more centralized, not less."

Coinbase SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"Lets plan for success. Coinbase supports increasing the maximum block size http://t.co/JoP4ATw4ux"

Blockchain.info SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"It is time to increase the block size. Agree with @gavinandresen post at http://t.co/G3J6bqgchu 1/2"

BitPay SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"Agreed (but optimistic this will be the last and only time block size needs to increase) http://t.co/o3kMtEkm0x"

Coinkite SUPPORTS larger blocks (BIP100):


“BIP 100 is a reasonable proposal, but it must be implemented by Bitcoin Core and not Bitcoin XT.”

BitPagos SUPPORTS larger blocks (BIP100):

“BitPagos supports the increase in the block size. It is important to maintain the Bitcoin network reliable and its value as a global transfer system."

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114505/web-wallet-providers-divided-over-andresens-20-mb-block-size-increase-proposal

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114612/major-payment-processors-in-favor-of-block-size-increase-coinkite-and-bitpagos-prefer-bip-100



What i want to see if Theymos will follow his words and ..... stop supporting all the services above on his site "www.bitcoin.org"....

LOL lets see if he can shoot himself in the foot.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100

Xapo SUPPORTS larger blocks:


“We support Gavin's proposal as we think it is important for Bitcoin's growth and development to get ahead of this hard cap before it is a problem. Many of us are already circumventing this by processing as many transactions as possible off the blockchain which makes Bitcoin more centralized, not less."

Coinbase SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"Lets plan for success. Coinbase supports increasing the maximum block size http://t.co/JoP4ATw4ux"

Blockchain.info SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"It is time to increase the block size. Agree with @gavinandresen post at http://t.co/G3J6bqgchu 1/2"

BitPay SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"Agreed (but optimistic this will be the last and only time block size needs to increase) http://t.co/o3kMtEkm0x"

Coinkite SUPPORTS larger blocks (BIP100):


“BIP 100 is a reasonable proposal, but it must be implemented by Bitcoin Core and not Bitcoin XT.”

BitPagos SUPPORTS larger blocks (BIP100):

“BitPagos supports the increase in the block size. It is important to maintain the Bitcoin network reliable and its value as a global transfer system."

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114505/web-wallet-providers-divided-over-andresens-20-mb-block-size-increase-proposal

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114612/major-payment-processors-in-favor-of-block-size-increase-coinkite-and-bitpagos-prefer-bip-100







Damn XT already got 44% of the hashing power? How can I follow the statistics in real life of this? It will be interesting to see if it reaches super majority. It's really growing fast it seems. Maybe we have bigger blocks sooner than expected.

Only idiots dont see larger block is inevitable. Its sad that the bitcoin core devs act like a bunch of children and force us to choose XT to voice our vote.

They think because they're core devs, we have to follow them? idiots
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1010
In Satoshi I Trust
more than 64% of total hashing power are in favor of 8 MB blocks. i dont know if KnC miner is already included here - so it could be more than 75%.

https://de.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gryjy/slushs_pool_endorses_8mb_blocks/
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1010
In Satoshi I Trust
The main problem is fewer and fewer people will be able to run nodes. Hard disk space is definitely not a problem, it gets cheaper, now bandwidth, thats another history, i dont think moore's law follows there, the bandwith development is not as steady as HDD development.

look at Nielsen's Law:

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/

we dont talk about 100 MB blocks - we talk about 6, 8 or 16 MB blocks in a few years (when they are actually full). hundreds of millions of people can support such nodes today. no problem.

Tell me, how long does it take to initialize your full node today on your particular hardware? I am talking about a fresh install.

How long does it take to re-index the blocks that are already on disk  if your Bitcoin core happens to shut down ungracefully?

If you think these times are not a problem, then I'd like to know what kind of ninja hardware you are using.

in my view it is not a problem to initialize my full node and wait 10-15 minutes. but your assumption is based on the bitcoin software from today. the software will be improved over time. things will work faster - pruning for example.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
That's FUD. We don't even max out the blocks today. So it won't be obsolete anytime soon. It's only healthy to have a working fee system. Who decides what a standard fee is?
I think the market should, you don't seem to be of the same opinion?
In that case I was talking about the natural growth, not the average calculated when spam transactions are included. No, it is not FUD. Bit by bit some are trying to make Bitcoin lose its advantages such as low fees.
Actually I believe that with Bitcoin a set of fixed rules related to almost everything is best. People can not be trusted with anything these days and love exploiting things. Letting "market" decide would eventually lead to something like sending $1 and paying $2 as a fee.

I have my opinion and you have yours thats all I'm saying. Obviously people disagree on what the best proposal is.
I think we need more time to debate what the best option is.
Therefore I think it would be best to not do anything hasty such as BitcoinXT.
People can't agree because almost everyone around here is closed minded. At first I was willing to accept Gavins proposal, however that did not turn out to be the best choice of action and thus I began changing my stance towards this matter. I'm willing to compensate to a 2 MB increase as Jeff proposed and I openly welcome other solutions (e.g. sidechains, lightning network). However, people on the other side of the argument do not seem to want to compensate to anything. It's their way or no way at all.
hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
I did not state that.

The please explain what you meant by:

-snip-
 Even if this was the case, a simple higher cap can be implemented to prevent this from happening.
-snip-


If by adapt you mean making Bitcoin obsolete due to high fees, then yes it did. A TX that includes the standard fee is not a spam transaction. Standard fees were not enough at that time for some.

That's FUD. We don't even max out the blocks today. So it won't be obsolete anytime soon. It's only healthy to have a working fee system. Who decides what a standard fee is?
I think the market should, you don't seem to be of the same opinion?

How do you define 'best'? Are you saying that there is a perfect solution among one of the proposals?

I have my opinion and you have yours thats all I'm saying. Obviously people disagree on what the best proposal is.
I think we need more time to debate what the best option is.
Therefore I think it would be best to not do anything hasty such as BitcoinXT.
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1014

Xapo SUPPORTS larger blocks:


“We support Gavin's proposal as we think it is important for Bitcoin's growth and development to get ahead of this hard cap before it is a problem. Many of us are already circumventing this by processing as many transactions as possible off the blockchain which makes Bitcoin more centralized, not less."

Coinbase SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"Lets plan for success. Coinbase supports increasing the maximum block size http://t.co/JoP4ATw4ux"

Blockchain.info SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"It is time to increase the block size. Agree with @gavinandresen post at http://t.co/G3J6bqgchu 1/2"

BitPay SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"Agreed (but optimistic this will be the last and only time block size needs to increase) http://t.co/o3kMtEkm0x"

Coinkite SUPPORTS larger blocks (BIP100):


“BIP 100 is a reasonable proposal, but it must be implemented by Bitcoin Core and not Bitcoin XT.”

BitPagos SUPPORTS larger blocks (BIP100):

“BitPagos supports the increase in the block size. It is important to maintain the Bitcoin network reliable and its value as a global transfer system."

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114505/web-wallet-providers-divided-over-andresens-20-mb-block-size-increase-proposal

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114612/major-payment-processors-in-favor-of-block-size-increase-coinkite-and-bitpagos-prefer-bip-100







Damn XT already got 44% of the hashing power? How can I follow the statistics in real life of this? It will be interesting to see if it reaches super majority. It's really growing fast it seems. Maybe we have bigger blocks sooner than expected.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
So you are advocating a even higher block size if the spammers fill up the 8MB blocks?
I did not state that.

The market did not adapt? Are you kidding? The only people that complained were people that used no fees or very low fees. Those transactions should not be on the blockchain to begin with. They are SPAM.
Which shows that the current anti SPAM system works.
If by adapt you mean making Bitcoin obsolete due to high fees, then yes it did. A TX that includes the standard fee is not a spam transaction. Standard fees were not enough at that time for some.

The best option is out there. It's just that we cannot agree what the best option is. And therefore we cannot reach consensus.
How do you define 'best'? Are you saying that there is a perfect solution among one of the proposals?
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1010
In Satoshi I Trust

Xapo SUPPORTS larger blocks:


“We support Gavin's proposal as we think it is important for Bitcoin's growth and development to get ahead of this hard cap before it is a problem. Many of us are already circumventing this by processing as many transactions as possible off the blockchain which makes Bitcoin more centralized, not less."

Coinbase SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"Lets plan for success. Coinbase supports increasing the maximum block size http://t.co/JoP4ATw4ux"

Blockchain.info SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"It is time to increase the block size. Agree with @gavinandresen post at http://t.co/G3J6bqgchu 1/2"

BitPay SUPPORTS larger blocks:

"Agreed (but optimistic this will be the last and only time block size needs to increase) http://t.co/o3kMtEkm0x"

Coinkite SUPPORTS larger blocks (BIP100):


“BIP 100 is a reasonable proposal, but it must be implemented by Bitcoin Core and not Bitcoin XT.”

BitPagos SUPPORTS larger blocks (BIP100):

“BitPagos supports the increase in the block size. It is important to maintain the Bitcoin network reliable and its value as a global transfer system."

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114505/web-wallet-providers-divided-over-andresens-20-mb-block-size-increase-proposal

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114612/major-payment-processors-in-favor-of-block-size-increase-coinkite-and-bitpagos-prefer-bip-100





hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
The 1mb cap wasn't introduced because of concerns over the bandwidth requirements for nodes, it was intended to be an anti-spam measure, but apparently it failed miserably in that goal.  The blockchain didn't "grow huge" before the cap was put in place.  Also, it's not a "solution" at all if it doesn't solve the problem of limiting the amount of fees the miners can collect.  Nodes won't be any use at all without sufficiently incentivised miners to secure the network.  In order to generate more fees for miners, it will be necessary to accommodate more transactions over time.  Users want to get their transactions on a blockchain.  If Bitcoin isn't the simplest and most convenient way to do that because you're funneling transactions into your lightning colostomy bag network, another coin will come along that hasn't been artificially crippled and doesn't rely on a third party bolted on top.  If that coin turns out to be a more attractive proposition for users, what's their reason to continue using Bitcoin?  If users are then transacting on another network, why are miners going to stick around to secure this one?

Third party layers should be strictly reserved for micropayments and transactions that don't include a fee.  And as much as small block proponents obsess about micropayments, they really aren't the issue.  Even after they're swept under the carpet, Bitcoin still needs to support more than two-thirds of a floppy disk every ten minutes.  If it doesn't, something else will.  

Why would users care if their transacations went over the blockchain or not? All they want is to transfer money.
And why do we need to increase transacations to increase mining fees? When we could just increase the fees?



I do not agree with either parts of your post. Filling up a block costs money, and I doubt that someone would be able to make huge blocks without that costing them a lot. Even if this was the case, a simple higher cap can be implemented to prevent this from happening.
There is no risking with a proper hard fork. Why risk using third party solutions; i.e. meaning we stop relying on the protocol itself?

So you are advocating a even higher block size if the spammers fill up the 8MB blocks?

You have not? What about those recent spam attacks that happened? A lot of people were complaining about their transactions not going through because the blocks were full. The market did not adapt that time, nor do I understand why people think that higher fees are going to be beneficial to Bitcoin.

The market did not adapt? Are you kidding? The only people that complained were people that used no fees or very low fees. Those transactions should not be on the blockchain to begin with. They are SPAM.
Which shows that the current anti SPAM system works.

Wrong. Nobody is saying that it is the best possible option. If the majority vote for X, then you go with X regardless of what is best. Is this not the way that decentralized consensus was supposed to work around here?
Obviously people have different opinions when we talk about the best possible option, so there is none.

The best option is out there. It's just that we cannot agree what the best option is. And therefore we cannot reach consensus.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
The main problem is fewer and fewer people will be able to run nodes. Hard disk space is definitely not a problem, it gets cheaper, now bandwidth, thats another history, i dont think moore's law follows there, the bandwith development is not as steady as HDD development.

look at Nielsen's Law:

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/

we dont talk about 100 MB blocks - we talk about 6, 8 or 16 MB blocks in a few years (when they are actually full). hundreds of millions of people can support such nodes today. no problem.

Tell me, how long does it take to initialize your full node today on your particular hardware? I am talking about a fresh install.

How long does it take to re-index the blocks that are already on disk  if your Bitcoin core happens to shut down ungracefully?

If you think these times are not a problem, then I'd like to know what kind of ninja hardware you are using.

My question is, what's the rush? If you're gonna run a node, you're gonna run a node. Its going to be running from now until forever so what's the rush? It's not like you're waiting for Gimp to load so you can work.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
That's a bad analogy. We need to have limits otherwise the block chain would grow so massive that most people would not be able to run full nodes.
And what's the point of risking that when we can have third party solutions?
I do not agree with either parts of your post. Filling up a block costs money, and I doubt that someone would be able to make huge blocks without that costing them a lot. Even if this was the case, a simple higher cap can be implemented to prevent this from happening.
There is no risking with a proper hard fork. Why risk using third party solutions; i.e. meaning we stop relying on the protocol itself?

What needed time?
I haven't noticed that we have any urgent issues with full blocks?
If there are full blocks the market will adapt and either pay higher fees or develop alternatives like lightning network.
You have not? What about those recent spam attacks that happened? A lot of people were complaining about their transactions not going through because the blocks were full. The market did not adapt that time, nor do I understand why people think that higher fees are going to be beneficial to Bitcoin.

And so what if 90% thinks we should have bigger blocks? I still don't think it's the best possible option.
That's like saying just because the majority of the people voted for Obama makes him the best possible president.
Wrong. Nobody is saying that it is the best possible option. If the majority vote for X, then you go with X regardless of what is best. Is this not the way that decentralized consensus was supposed to work around here?
Obviously people have different opinions when we talk about the best possible option, so there is none.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
The main problem is fewer and fewer people will be able to run nodes. Hard disk space is definitely not a problem, it gets cheaper, now bandwidth, thats another history, i dont think moore's law follows there, the bandwith development is not as steady as HDD development.

In a sense at least it is manageable with PCs Bitcoin would have been extremely concentrated up to the late 1990's
Unfortunately your right about the amount of bandwidth each user has to run nodes and it will be a significant problem unless bandwidth development accelerates at a similar pace to HDD.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Move On !!!!!!
All of this situation is very worrisome and the solution needs to be found asap. I am for example waiting to see how will this unfold in order to invest more and I am sure many other people are doing the same. I mean why would I buy at $265 if I can buy much, much lower when shit hits the fan and a community divides in 2 sides. This is completely obvious.
hero member
Activity: 727
Merit: 500
Minimum Effort/Maximum effect
a precarious situation indeed. If we do not change the structure of the blocks we end up with serious problems when the network is unable to validate the transactions. Just imagine one day when there is a massive black out caused by a solar storm, backing up the network into the millions of transactions causing delays for days, we have seen this before. A larger blocksize would clear the back-log in minutes.

Does it scale? yeah it will but not in it's current form. Either we improve the cryptography, the file compression, restructure the network or increase the blocksize... either way we will be forced to choose and we will cause a fork within the community.

The businesses relying on the cash flow from customers will choose bigger blocks to keep momentum up... they cannot afford not to.

The purists will improve the cryptographic compression to allow equal participation by the lowliest nodes in the network.

Others will partition the network to complimentary chains working in tandem: off-chain transactions.

All these are viable and proving the worth of the Bitcoin Network... It's forcing us to adapt.

Me? I personally would prefer that bandwidth be kept to a minimum, all choices are on the table. It's not just Bitcoin's network that is at stake but the thousands of complimentary chains that will eventually be built on top and around Bitcoin. The ecosystem may become so saturated that there could come a time when all available bandwidth is used up across the globe causing delays that no programmer will be able to solve. We will bog down the internet.

Increasing the size of the blocks is a band-aid solution... we need a solution that we have yet to think of.



donator
Activity: 1616
Merit: 1003
The main problem is fewer and fewer people will be able to run nodes. Hard disk space is definitely not a problem, it gets cheaper, now bandwidth, thats another history, i dont think moore's law follows there, the bandwith development is not as steady as HDD development.

look at Nielsen's Law:

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/

we dont talk about 100 MB blocks - we talk about 6, 8 or 16 MB blocks in a few years (when they are actually full). hundreds of millions of people can support such nodes today. no problem.

Tell me, how long does it take to initialize your full node today on your particular hardware? I am talking about a fresh install.

How long does it take to re-index the blocks that are already on disk  if your Bitcoin core happens to shut down ungracefully?

If you think these times are not a problem, then I'd like to know what kind of ninja hardware you are using.
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