Why is Bitcoin still a slave of Fiat? - page 11.

Dotakels

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Quote from: hunnaryb on June 18, 2015, 11:52:30 AM

Quote from: bitnanigans on June 18, 2015, 02:36:00 AM

I think until people who hold Bitcoin start to spend it as normal currency and more establishments start to accept it, it'll always be tied to fiat one way or the other. Personally, I'm just looking forward to a point where conversion between bitcoin and fiat is fast and easy, instead of having to do identify verification and wait days for wire transfers.

Wire transfers are very time consuming and the charges are too high as compared to bitcoins. The bitcoins can be transferred to fiat currency into your bank accounts within fractions of minutes and yes till the more and more people start adopting bitcoin then only bitcoin would replace fiat.

But if bitcoin replace fiat, theres so many rules or law that should make that bitcoins user will not outweigh with the government. And also i think we all died before it happened.

hunnaryb

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Quote from: bitnanigans on June 18, 2015, 02:36:00 AM

I think until people who hold Bitcoin start to spend it as normal currency and more establishments start to accept it, it'll always be tied to fiat one way or the other. Personally, I'm just looking forward to a point where conversion between bitcoin and fiat is fast and easy, instead of having to do identify verification and wait days for wire transfers.

Wire transfers are very time consuming and the charges are too high as compared to bitcoins. The bitcoins can be transferred to fiat currency into your bank accounts within fractions of minutes and yes till the more and more people start adopting bitcoin then only bitcoin would replace fiat.

Bit-Gods

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Quote from: bitnanigans on June 18, 2015, 02:36:00 AM

I think until people who hold Bitcoin start to spend it as normal currency and more establishments start to accept it, it'll always be tied to fiat one way or the other. Personally, I'm just looking forward to a point where conversion between bitcoin and fiat is fast and easy, instead of having to do identify verification and wait days for wire transfers.

You can get the debit card from BIT-X found in my signature to cashout btc anytime you want wherever mastercard is accepted. It will take time for bitcoin to break the boundries that bureaucrats have set in every country for hundreds of years in form of fiat but it is bound to happen with the adoption of bitcoin, remember Rome was not build in a day Cheesy

arallmuus

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Quote from: bitnanigans on June 18, 2015, 02:36:00 AM

I think until people who hold Bitcoin start to spend it as normal currency and more establishments start to accept it, it'll always be tied to fiat one way or the other.

Although people started to mass adopt it. It is still not a guarantee that it will be free from FIAT, the reason that BTC is a slave of FIAT would be much more to that it has no dependant value because you will need to keep on converting to FIAT to purchase something using it. Another reason would be that at some point not everyone will keep their BTC forever and will cash them out in form of FIAT, kinda like an endless cycle that everything in the end at some point will be converted into FIAT

bitnanigans

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I think until people who hold Bitcoin start to spend it as normal currency and more establishments start to accept it, it'll always be tied to fiat one way or the other. Personally, I'm just looking forward to a point where conversion between bitcoin and fiat is fast and easy, instead of having to do identify verification and wait days for wire transfers.

Amph

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Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 03:02:56 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 02:09:49 PM

Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 01:51:21 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 01:33:02 PM

Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 12:51:41 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: wearepoor on June 16, 2015, 07:31:24 PM

Quote from: stromma44 on June 16, 2015, 09:32:52 AM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 16, 2015, 05:41:54 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on June 15, 2015, 01:59:50 PM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 15, 2015, 12:52:09 PM

We need more adopter to bring bitcoin to more mainstream.

Its not about more adopter to be honest, in the end most of use who use and accept BTC will still cash it out into FIAT, therefore BTC will still be a slave of FIAT. Another thing would be that, you can buy mostly everything with FIAT but you cant buy mostly everything with BTC (which ofcourse another reason on why BTC is a slave of FIAT)

Logically that's right. Maybe bitcoin is decentralization? And digital currency?

And the other reason is that there are many alternatives available for bitcoin as a currency or a payment system like fiat, credit card etc. And fiat has ruled the world since so many years so people follow fiat more.

You need fiat to buy bitcoin and you don't need bitcoin to buy a fiat. It is as simple as that. And I don't see in coming years that bitcoin will replace fiat. It is simply to impossible.

Fiat is a traditional currency and every one follows the same since years and it is more trustworthy as compared to bitcoins. Whereas Bitcoins are new to many people and would not attract instantly until they start to know it technically.

actually no, you produce bitcoin without the need of fiat, with mining(one could argue that you need to buy the miners, but you do it one time only), with signature campaign(this is a better example) or with anything that require you to invest your time and not your money

and last but not least with bitcoin itself, with trading on stocks

What broker accepts btc to invest in the stock market??

1broker, and i'm using it to do some trading, there are other, but i find this to be the best one

dude there are only 12 stocks..

yeah, but it's better than nothing, there is also forex, and commodities, you have already a good table of choice

what about the others?? Is there any chance to build a decent stock portfolio??

yeah there is, personally i think closing and opening a position is better than opening and closing an order, i'm more suited for this kind of trading

cellard

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I would love a way to choose ANY stock and operate it with BTC. Hopefully the Winklevoss level take it to the next level when they are done with Gemini, and create a way to interact with forex and the big stock markets to choose any stock we want without the need of depositing fiat, doing it with BTC directly. That would be amazing.

ernestdezoe

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Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 02:09:49 PM

Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 01:51:21 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 01:33:02 PM

Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 12:51:41 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: wearepoor on June 16, 2015, 07:31:24 PM

Quote from: stromma44 on June 16, 2015, 09:32:52 AM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 16, 2015, 05:41:54 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on June 15, 2015, 01:59:50 PM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 15, 2015, 12:52:09 PM

We need more adopter to bring bitcoin to more mainstream.

Its not about more adopter to be honest, in the end most of use who use and accept BTC will still cash it out into FIAT, therefore BTC will still be a slave of FIAT. Another thing would be that, you can buy mostly everything with FIAT but you cant buy mostly everything with BTC (which ofcourse another reason on why BTC is a slave of FIAT)

Logically that's right. Maybe bitcoin is decentralization? And digital currency?

And the other reason is that there are many alternatives available for bitcoin as a currency or a payment system like fiat, credit card etc. And fiat has ruled the world since so many years so people follow fiat more.

You need fiat to buy bitcoin and you don't need bitcoin to buy a fiat. It is as simple as that. And I don't see in coming years that bitcoin will replace fiat. It is simply to impossible.

Fiat is a traditional currency and every one follows the same since years and it is more trustworthy as compared to bitcoins. Whereas Bitcoins are new to many people and would not attract instantly until they start to know it technically.

actually no, you produce bitcoin without the need of fiat, with mining(one could argue that you need to buy the miners, but you do it one time only), with signature campaign(this is a better example) or with anything that require you to invest your time and not your money

and last but not least with bitcoin itself, with trading on stocks

What broker accepts btc to invest in the stock market??

1broker, and i'm using it to do some trading, there are other, but i find this to be the best one

dude there are only 12 stocks..

yeah, but it's better than nothing, there is also forex, and commodities, you have already a good table of choice

what about the others?? Is there any chance to build a decent stock portfolio??

techgeek

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Quote from: eerygarden on June 17, 2015, 01:37:03 PM

Quote from: josephliton on June 17, 2015, 12:37:05 PM

Quote from: MoneroExpress on April 30, 2015, 11:00:51 AM

Why is Bitcoin tied to Fiat? Why is Bitcoin value moving like a stock? satoshi said the value will be derived by the limit of total coins. But we are seeing the opposite. Why dont we mathematically calculate the value of bitcoin according to the amount of bitcoin mined?

Like

Agreed Value * Bitcoins Mined = New Value

0.0010 * 1 = 0.0010
0.0010 * 2 = 0.0020

Everyone is a slave of fiat as long as that person has to pay for things in fiat and has to get paid in fiat. This means you can actually live outside the system, if you get paid in Bitcoin, and pay everything in Bitcoin.

Using your own example, wouldn't you then just become a slave of bitcoin?

Youre basically exchanging the ideas of money.

Its just in a different form, so yes you become a slave for bitcoin, in a simple concept.

ernestdezoe

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what about the others ? are there different stocks on there?

Amph

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Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 01:51:21 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 01:33:02 PM

Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 12:51:41 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: wearepoor on June 16, 2015, 07:31:24 PM

Quote from: stromma44 on June 16, 2015, 09:32:52 AM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 16, 2015, 05:41:54 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on June 15, 2015, 01:59:50 PM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 15, 2015, 12:52:09 PM

We need more adopter to bring bitcoin to more mainstream.

Its not about more adopter to be honest, in the end most of use who use and accept BTC will still cash it out into FIAT, therefore BTC will still be a slave of FIAT. Another thing would be that, you can buy mostly everything with FIAT but you cant buy mostly everything with BTC (which ofcourse another reason on why BTC is a slave of FIAT)

Logically that's right. Maybe bitcoin is decentralization? And digital currency?

And the other reason is that there are many alternatives available for bitcoin as a currency or a payment system like fiat, credit card etc. And fiat has ruled the world since so many years so people follow fiat more.

You need fiat to buy bitcoin and you don't need bitcoin to buy a fiat. It is as simple as that. And I don't see in coming years that bitcoin will replace fiat. It is simply to impossible.

Fiat is a traditional currency and every one follows the same since years and it is more trustworthy as compared to bitcoins. Whereas Bitcoins are new to many people and would not attract instantly until they start to know it technically.

actually no, you produce bitcoin without the need of fiat, with mining(one could argue that you need to buy the miners, but you do it one time only), with signature campaign(this is a better example) or with anything that require you to invest your time and not your money

and last but not least with bitcoin itself, with trading on stocks

What broker accepts btc to invest in the stock market??

1broker, and i'm using it to do some trading, there are other, but i find this to be the best one

dude there are only 12 stocks..

yeah, but it's better than nothing, there is also forex, and commodities, you have already a good table of choice

arallmuus

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Quote from: Amph on June 16, 2015, 08:21:12 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on June 16, 2015, 03:20:28 AM

The same thing with FIAT and also commercial bank whereas there are tons of robbery for the bank. This is pretty much double standards, which you cant compare both because both bear a risk where you could lose it. Even if you take precautions on what necessary needed there will still be a risk for you to bear

P.S : Im more into securing it by my owns and even if I lost it , that would be my sole fault ( much better than entrusting it to a third party and lose them all the same )

with bank you have your ass covered a bit, against robbery, insolvency ecc.. they only need to display a magical number and then cover you when somoeone else will deposit in their bank, basically like a legal ponzi..

Indeed it was all the same actually unless you forgot that there are alot of news that bank announced their bankruptcy. Also that I hadnt heard anything about bank covering money that you lost against robbery or credit card fraud.

Quote from: wearepoor on June 16, 2015, 07:31:24 PM

You need fiat to buy bitcoin and you don't need bitcoin to buy a fiat.

It seems like you dont think twice before posting this. Everyone that traded their BTC into FIAT could be considered as "purchasing" FIAT anyway. Also that a trade is a two way activity , if you are selling bitcoin for FIAT then on the same time there will be someone purchasing it with FIAT

Quote from: vrm86 on June 17, 2015, 06:27:10 AM

Merchants and buyers are yet not prepared to use BTC.

They are ready to use it but the problem would be that they will need to convert it back to FIAT at some point because BTC alone cant help them with their business. This will be another reason why BTC is a slave of FIAT for now, because in the end you can stand alone with only BTC in your hands

Quote from: vrm86 on June 17, 2015, 06:27:10 AM

Also, they are not sure about how much is it actually worth and how it would be tomorrow.

There are alot of payment system that auto convert price in your currency into BTC for the current value at the time you do a purchase , so its not a big deal and not a reason why BTC is still a slave of FIAT

ernestdezoe

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Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 01:33:02 PM

Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 12:51:41 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: wearepoor on June 16, 2015, 07:31:24 PM

Quote from: stromma44 on June 16, 2015, 09:32:52 AM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 16, 2015, 05:41:54 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on June 15, 2015, 01:59:50 PM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 15, 2015, 12:52:09 PM

We need more adopter to bring bitcoin to more mainstream.

Its not about more adopter to be honest, in the end most of use who use and accept BTC will still cash it out into FIAT, therefore BTC will still be a slave of FIAT. Another thing would be that, you can buy mostly everything with FIAT but you cant buy mostly everything with BTC (which ofcourse another reason on why BTC is a slave of FIAT)

Logically that's right. Maybe bitcoin is decentralization? And digital currency?

And the other reason is that there are many alternatives available for bitcoin as a currency or a payment system like fiat, credit card etc. And fiat has ruled the world since so many years so people follow fiat more.

You need fiat to buy bitcoin and you don't need bitcoin to buy a fiat. It is as simple as that. And I don't see in coming years that bitcoin will replace fiat. It is simply to impossible.

Fiat is a traditional currency and every one follows the same since years and it is more trustworthy as compared to bitcoins. Whereas Bitcoins are new to many people and would not attract instantly until they start to know it technically.

actually no, you produce bitcoin without the need of fiat, with mining(one could argue that you need to buy the miners, but you do it one time only), with signature campaign(this is a better example) or with anything that require you to invest your time and not your money

and last but not least with bitcoin itself, with trading on stocks

What broker accepts btc to invest in the stock market??

1broker, and i'm using it to do some trading, there are other, but i find this to be the best one

dude there are only 12 stocks..

eerygarden

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

Quote from: josephliton on June 17, 2015, 12:37:05 PM

Quote from: MoneroExpress on April 30, 2015, 11:00:51 AM

Why is Bitcoin tied to Fiat? Why is Bitcoin value moving like a stock? satoshi said the value will be derived by the limit of total coins. But we are seeing the opposite. Why dont we mathematically calculate the value of bitcoin according to the amount of bitcoin mined?

Like

Agreed Value * Bitcoins Mined = New Value

0.0010 * 1 = 0.0010
0.0010 * 2 = 0.0020

Everyone is a slave of fiat as long as that person has to pay for things in fiat and has to get paid in fiat. This means you can actually live outside the system, if you get paid in Bitcoin, and pay everything in Bitcoin.

Using your own example, wouldn't you then just become a slave of bitcoin?

Amph

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Activity: 3248

Merit: 1070

Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 12:51:41 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: wearepoor on June 16, 2015, 07:31:24 PM

Quote from: stromma44 on June 16, 2015, 09:32:52 AM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 16, 2015, 05:41:54 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on June 15, 2015, 01:59:50 PM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 15, 2015, 12:52:09 PM

We need more adopter to bring bitcoin to more mainstream.

Its not about more adopter to be honest, in the end most of use who use and accept BTC will still cash it out into FIAT, therefore BTC will still be a slave of FIAT. Another thing would be that, you can buy mostly everything with FIAT but you cant buy mostly everything with BTC (which ofcourse another reason on why BTC is a slave of FIAT)

Logically that's right. Maybe bitcoin is decentralization? And digital currency?

And the other reason is that there are many alternatives available for bitcoin as a currency or a payment system like fiat, credit card etc. And fiat has ruled the world since so many years so people follow fiat more.

You need fiat to buy bitcoin and you don't need bitcoin to buy a fiat. It is as simple as that. And I don't see in coming years that bitcoin will replace fiat. It is simply to impossible.

Fiat is a traditional currency and every one follows the same since years and it is more trustworthy as compared to bitcoins. Whereas Bitcoins are new to many people and would not attract instantly until they start to know it technically.

actually no, you produce bitcoin without the need of fiat, with mining(one could argue that you need to buy the miners, but you do it one time only), with signature campaign(this is a better example) or with anything that require you to invest your time and not your money

and last but not least with bitcoin itself, with trading on stocks

What broker accepts btc to invest in the stock market??

1broker, and i'm using it to do some trading, there are other, but i find this to be the best one

mrhelpful

legendary

Activity: 1456

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Quote from: ernestdezoe on June 17, 2015, 12:51:41 PM

Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: wearepoor on June 16, 2015, 07:31:24 PM

Quote from: stromma44 on June 16, 2015, 09:32:52 AM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 16, 2015, 05:41:54 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on June 15, 2015, 01:59:50 PM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 15, 2015, 12:52:09 PM

We need more adopter to bring bitcoin to more mainstream.

Its not about more adopter to be honest, in the end most of use who use and accept BTC will still cash it out into FIAT, therefore BTC will still be a slave of FIAT. Another thing would be that, you can buy mostly everything with FIAT but you cant buy mostly everything with BTC (which ofcourse another reason on why BTC is a slave of FIAT)

Logically that's right. Maybe bitcoin is decentralization? And digital currency?

And the other reason is that there are many alternatives available for bitcoin as a currency or a payment system like fiat, credit card etc. And fiat has ruled the world since so many years so people follow fiat more.

You need fiat to buy bitcoin and you don't need bitcoin to buy a fiat. It is as simple as that. And I don't see in coming years that bitcoin will replace fiat. It is simply to impossible.

Fiat is a traditional currency and every one follows the same since years and it is more trustworthy as compared to bitcoins. Whereas Bitcoins are new to many people and would not attract instantly until they start to know it technically.

actually no, you produce bitcoin without the need of fiat, with mining(one could argue that you need to buy the miners, but you do it one time only), with signature campaign(this is a better example) or with anything that require you to invest your time and not your money

and last but not least with bitcoin itself, with trading on stocks

What broker accepts btc to invest in the stock market??

what? bitcoin on the stock market?

where was I for this announcement... I`m pretty sure nothing has gone through the traditional forms to be on the stock market besides the bitlicense we got a few months back.

ernestdezoe

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Activity: 5

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Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 05:17:40 AM

Quote from: wearepoor on June 16, 2015, 07:31:24 PM

Quote from: stromma44 on June 16, 2015, 09:32:52 AM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 16, 2015, 05:41:54 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on June 15, 2015, 01:59:50 PM

Quote from: avatar_kiyoshi on June 15, 2015, 12:52:09 PM

We need more adopter to bring bitcoin to more mainstream.

Its not about more adopter to be honest, in the end most of use who use and accept BTC will still cash it out into FIAT, therefore BTC will still be a slave of FIAT. Another thing would be that, you can buy mostly everything with FIAT but you cant buy mostly everything with BTC (which ofcourse another reason on why BTC is a slave of FIAT)

Logically that's right. Maybe bitcoin is decentralization? And digital currency?

And the other reason is that there are many alternatives available for bitcoin as a currency or a payment system like fiat, credit card etc. And fiat has ruled the world since so many years so people follow fiat more.

You need fiat to buy bitcoin and you don't need bitcoin to buy a fiat. It is as simple as that. And I don't see in coming years that bitcoin will replace fiat. It is simply to impossible.

Fiat is a traditional currency and every one follows the same since years and it is more trustworthy as compared to bitcoins. Whereas Bitcoins are new to many people and would not attract instantly until they start to know it technically.

actually no, you produce bitcoin without the need of fiat, with mining(one could argue that you need to buy the miners, but you do it one time only), with signature campaign(this is a better example) or with anything that require you to invest your time and not your money

and last but not least with bitcoin itself, with trading on stocks

What broker accepts btc to invest in the stock market??

josephliton

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Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: MoneroExpress on April 30, 2015, 11:00:51 AM

Why is Bitcoin tied to Fiat? Why is Bitcoin value moving like a stock? satoshi said the value will be derived by the limit of total coins. But we are seeing the opposite. Why dont we mathematically calculate the value of bitcoin according to the amount of bitcoin mined?

Like

Agreed Value * Bitcoins Mined = New Value

0.0010 * 1 = 0.0010
0.0010 * 2 = 0.0020

Everyone is a slave of fiat as long as that person has to pay for things in fiat and has to get paid in fiat. This means you can actually live outside the system, if you get paid in Bitcoin, and pay everything in Bitcoin.

eerygarden

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Activity: 406

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Quote from: vrm86 on June 17, 2015, 06:27:10 AM

I would compare Bictoin - Fiat relations to the most of the local currencies - USD. When you show 1$ wherever in the world, people will know its worth and would like accept it, unlike eg. RUB, NZD or PLN.

Dollars would not be accepted in the UK.

Quote

Merchants and buyers are yet not prepared to use BTC. Also, they are not sure about how much is it actually worth and how it would be tomorrow. IMO these are the things possible to change over time in case of BTC.

I paid for some graphic design work in bitcoin. 50% up front and the other 50% after. We pegged the price to Fiat but it worked out very nicely. Paying a graphic designer in Romania probably wouldn't have happened without bitcoin. I know the market place isn't thriving but it can be done with ease and success today.

vrm86

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I would compare Bictoin - Fiat relations to the most of the local currencies - USD. When you show 1$ wherever in the world, people will know its worth and would like accept it, unlike eg. RUB, NZD or PLN.

Merchants and buyers are yet not prepared to use BTC. Also, they are not sure about how much is it actually worth and how it would be tomorrow. IMO these are the things possible to change over time in case of BTC.

Topic: Why is Bitcoin still a slave of Fiat? - page 11. (Read 13984 times)