Why is the demand still so high for Miners with returns like these?

Chronikka

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Quote from: Nemo1024 on August 21, 2013, 03:22:16 AM

For the time being, no SHA-256 altcoin is more profitable:
http://www.coinchoose.com/

PPC and FRC might be right at the point when BTC difficulty changes, but that is quickly mitigated by their price change.
And TRC was insecure as hell until the latest patch, which everyone hopes will hold.

For the time being...which is why mine are mining BTC right now Wink

But a few weeks ago TRC and PPC were both more profitable than BTC. The recent price surge on Gox has put Bitcoin back on top though.

Nemo1024

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For the time being, no SHA-256 altcoin is more profitable:
http://www.coinchoose.com/

PPC and FRC might be right at the point when BTC difficulty changes, but that is quickly mitigated by their price change.
And TRC was insecure as hell until the latest patch, which everyone hopes will hold.

Chronikka

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Quote from: CrashX on August 21, 2013, 01:54:46 AM

Quote from: Chronikka on August 21, 2013, 12:55:09 AM

A lot of people go back and forth on ROI but the way I look at is, all I need to do is break even mining BTC with my block erupters. Nobody is going to make it rich with them but even as the difficulty skyrockets and bitcoin becomes unminable, I will still have the hardware in hand, which I can turn toward any alt sha256 coin. Nobody is considering in their ROI calculations that the physical miner itself has value. You can either sell it for cash or bet on its long term value for mining alt coins.

Erupters will give 0.005, right now. How long will it take to you get ROI back?

I have a few of them, I pay $75 on each... and its not looking good.

Sometime early next spring at the latest I expect to have my investment back, assuming the price of bitocin does not change. But I plan to move them off of bitcoin mining before that. Alternate coins are more profitable for mining unless you have a lot of mining power at your disposal

CrashX

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Quote from: Chronikka on August 21, 2013, 12:55:09 AM

A lot of people go back and forth on ROI but the way I look at is, all I need to do is break even mining BTC with my block erupters. Nobody is going to make it rich with them but even as the difficulty skyrockets and bitcoin becomes unminable, I will still have the hardware in hand, which I can turn toward any alt sha256 coin. Nobody is considering in their ROI calculations that the physical miner itself has value. You can either sell it for cash or bet on its long term value for mining alt coins.

Erupters will give 0.005, right now. How long will it take to you get ROI back?

I have a few of them, I pay $75 on each... and its not looking good.

Chronikka

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A lot of people go back and forth on ROI but the way I look at is, all I need to do is break even mining BTC with my block erupters. Nobody is going to make it rich with them but even as the difficulty skyrockets and bitcoin becomes unminable, I will still have the hardware in hand, which I can turn toward any alt sha256 coin. Nobody is considering in their ROI calculations that the physical miner itself has value. You can either sell it for cash or bet on its long term value for mining alt coins.

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Quote from: Dalkore on August 20, 2013, 11:12:04 PM

Quote from: DigitalHermit on August 12, 2013, 02:09:31 PM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on August 12, 2013, 01:35:45 PM

I was just wondering with the increasing difficulty why the demand is still there for some seemingly high priced (though somewhat readily available) miners that don't seem like they can break even.

Because emotion and greed appear to overpower rational thought and impair basic math skills.

Bingo and now collectively we will see what happens and pay that price. I will repeat it again, we are in a zero-sum game inside of an ASIC arms-race.

Well, nothing wrong with breaking even if you are helping the network, not to mention doing a hobby. For a lot of guys this is a hobby. Outside of metal detecting, I don't see many hobbies that can pay for themselves. And for many, I bet they can write off the miners and such as expenses.

Not saying it still isn't a risky game to play, I agree. There are scams out there to boot.

Dalkore

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Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012

Quote from: DigitalHermit on August 12, 2013, 02:09:31 PM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on August 12, 2013, 01:35:45 PM

I was just wondering with the increasing difficulty why the demand is still there for some seemingly high priced (though somewhat readily available) miners that don't seem like they can break even.

Because emotion and greed appear to overpower rational thought and impair basic math skills.

Bingo and now collectively we will see what happens and pay that price. I will repeat it again, we are in a zero-sum game inside of an ASIC arms-race.

jspielberg

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on August 19, 2013, 04:02:43 PM

roughly 1800 coins are mined at a day. At a current cost o $120 we are talking $216,000 per day or $1,512,000 per week or $6,552,000 per month. That is a pretty damn big number and think about when BTC hits higher values. Those few coins become more valuable, if BTC is becoming more valuable. What will be cheaper, mining a coin or buying one? Gamble? Etc.

Double all your numbers... ~3600 coins are minted per day.
25 coins per block found * (6 blocks found per hour) * (24 hours per day) = 3600 BTC

bobsag3

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Quote from: tymothy on August 17, 2013, 03:16:31 PM

I paid cash for a BFL 60 gh/s unit at a pretty heavy markup in USD. While I don't think the unit will ever generate the number of bitcoins I could have bought by investing that money directly in bitcoins instead of the unit, I do expect the USD value of my BTC will eventually exceed what I paid.

IM with you here. Also having the machine mining the coins over time gives me less incentive to spend them.

terman45x

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on August 12, 2013, 01:35:45 PM

I was just wondering with the increasing difficulty why the demand is still there for some seemingly high priced (though somewhat readily available) miners that don't seem like they can break even.

I believe it has something to do with impatient and sometimes irracional nature of humans

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on August 19, 2013, 01:56:57 PM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on August 19, 2013, 01:54:05 PM

And what happens as bigger and bigger money gets into mining and doesn't need to sell coins? And what happens when they re-invest into purchasing actual BTC's.
Seems like the future market could actually get cornered. In other words, lots of the remaining coins to be mined, might, NOT be sold for a while (till the price is where they want it).

Over 60% of all coins have already been mined.
Daily minting rate is down to 0.03% of total supply (and falling).
The amount of coins traded daily is a magnitude more than minting.

Simply put newly minted coins are a small and shrinking portion of the total supply.

roughly 1800 coins are mined at a day. At a current cost o $120 we are talking $216,000 per day or $1,512,000 per week or $6,552,000 per month. That is a pretty damn big number and think about when BTC hits higher values. Those few coins become more valuable, if BTC is becoming more valuable. What will be cheaper, mining a coin or buying one? Gamble? Etc.

So, if we are talking a finite supply, we can see how the value of those coins might come at a premium - at some point in time. Sort of like gold mining.
When, or rather if, the price of BTC's are exceedingly high, then mining even fewer BTC's will still hold lots of value. Perhaps a fraction will hold much more value than whole BTC today.

great value. Really, if BTC is successful, it is just a matter or time. This year, next year, etc?

I get the feeling we have lots of growth in store for us...

We are still in the early adoption phase...

smscotten

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Quote from: nwfella on August 19, 2013, 01:12:19 PM

Same number of Bitcoin will ultimately get created true. However, it's the amount of time that its going to take to create that finite amount of bitcoin that is going to be seriously reduced by exponentially increasing network hashrate. I too would agree that the money seems to be starting to flow into actual BTC value now that large mining players have already dumped large amounts of cash into 1st and 2nd gen ASIC pre-orders.

Let's just be clear about this. (With a little room for error of course) over any given month exactly the same amount of Bitcoin will be created. Not "ultimately" as in over the life of the coin, but "ultimately" over any given day (there will be variance here), week (less variance), or month (even less). The only time that more or less Bitcoin is created is before or after the block reward is halved. This will be just as true if the network is running 50 hashes per second or 50 exahashes per second.

The only thing that is different is how long it takes a given individual to get some of that, if that individual is not increasing his or her own hashrates proportionately to the sum of everyone else's hashrates.

That might be exactly what you meant, but what you said about "the amount of time that it's going to take to create that finite amount of Bitcoin […] is going to be seriously reduced" made it sound very much like you're working on a misconception. If I was wrong about that I apologize.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: Its About Sharing on August 19, 2013, 01:54:05 PM

And what happens as bigger and bigger money gets into mining and doesn't need to sell coins? And what happens when they re-invest into purchasing actual BTC's.
Seems like the future market could actually get cornered. In other words, lots of the remaining coins to be mined, might, NOT be sold for a while (till the price is where they want it).

Over 60% of all coins have already been mined.
Daily minting rate is down to 0.03% of total supply (and falling).
The amount of coins traded daily is a magnitude more than minting.

Simply put newly minted coins are a small and shrinking portion of the total supply.

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Quote from: nwfella on August 19, 2013, 01:12:19 PM

Quote from: smscotten on August 19, 2013, 05:52:43 AM

Quote from: Nemo1024 on August 19, 2013, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Moebius327 on August 18, 2013, 03:44:47 PM

If everyone stop mining and start buying BTC instead of investing in mining, price will skyrocket. Maybe this is one of the reasons for the late spike.

If everyone stops mining, the network will collapse and the price will plummet.

Sadly, behind the veil of greed, people forget that the primary function of mining is transaction processing and securing of the network.

This.

But also, say Moebius327 just mean "lots of people" and not literally everyone. It doesn't matter whether the network hashrate is cut to 10% or skyrockets to 100x what it is now. Either way the same number of Bitcoin get created. Sure, he's saying more people would be buying so I suppose demand increases some, but I'm not sure I'd call that a skyrocket.

Same number of Bitcoin will ultimately get created true. However, it's the amount of time that its going to take to create that finite amount of bitcoin that is going to be seriously reduced by exponentially increasing network hashrate. I too would agree that the money seems to be starting to flow into actual BTC value now that large mining players have already dumped large amounts of cash into 1st and 2nd gen ASIC pre-orders.

And what happens as bigger and bigger money gets into mining and doesn't need to sell coins? And what happens when they re-invest into purchasing actual BTC's.
Seems like the future market could actually get cornered. In other words, lots of the remaining coins to be mined, might, NOT be sold for a while (till the price is where they want it).

nwfella

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Well hello there!

Quote from: smscotten on August 19, 2013, 05:52:43 AM

Quote from: Nemo1024 on August 19, 2013, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Moebius327 on August 18, 2013, 03:44:47 PM

If everyone stop mining and start buying BTC instead of investing in mining, price will skyrocket. Maybe this is one of the reasons for the late spike.

If everyone stops mining, the network will collapse and the price will plummet.

Sadly, behind the veil of greed, people forget that the primary function of mining is transaction processing and securing of the network.

This.

But also, say Moebius327 just mean "lots of people" and not literally everyone. It doesn't matter whether the network hashrate is cut to 10% or skyrockets to 100x what it is now. Either way the same number of Bitcoin get created. Sure, he's saying more people would be buying so I suppose demand increases some, but I'm not sure I'd call that a skyrocket.

Same number of Bitcoin will ultimately get created true. However, it's the amount of time that its going to take to create that finite amount of bitcoin that is going to be seriously reduced by exponentially increasing network hashrate. I too would agree that the money seems to be starting to flow into actual BTC value now that large mining players have already dumped large amounts of cash into 1st and 2nd gen ASIC pre-orders.

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Something that I've added elsewhere that warrants a mention here:

I have the feeling, and it makes sense, that companies and large money getting into or already into mining, are going to (or have already started) rolling money in purchasing BTC's. They are supporting their mining investment. They may then hold coins that are mined and "invest" in BTC's via purchasing them outright. It is a very small market, all considered, so they can theoretically prop it up and start some buying. Greed takes place when the price starts moving away. They only need get it started, here an there.

So, they are supporting a new business in a similar way that many businesses do. E.g. - Amazon sold books at no profit to even a loss, in building up their business.

co5hike

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Investing to minng is better than buying BTC if you believe the Bitcoin will be very successfull project, because if you just buy BTC, you dont increasing difficulty, and increased difficulty means more secure system thus very successfull longterm project

smscotten

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Personally, I think the block eruptors are going to make great stocking stuffers this year. I just wish there were green ones to go with the red ones.

smscotten

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Quote from: Nemo1024 on August 19, 2013, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Moebius327 on August 18, 2013, 03:44:47 PM

If everyone stop mining and start buying BTC instead of investing in mining, price will skyrocket. Maybe this is one of the reasons for the late spike.

If everyone stops mining, the network will collapse and the price will plummet.

Sadly, behind the veil of greed, people forget that the primary function of mining is transaction processing and securing of the network.

This.

But also, say Moebius327 just mean "lots of people" and not literally everyone. It doesn't matter whether the network hashrate is cut to 10% or skyrockets to 100x what it is now. Either way the same number of Bitcoin get created. Sure, he's saying more people would be buying so I suppose demand increases some, but I'm not sure I'd call that a skyrocket.

Nemo1024

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Quote from: Moebius327 on August 18, 2013, 03:44:47 PM

If everyone stop mining and start buying BTC instead of investing in mining, price will skyrocket. Maybe this is one of the reasons for the late spike.

If everyone stops mining, the network will collapse and the price will plummet.

Sadly, behind the veil of greed, people forget that the primary function of mining is transaction processing and securing of the network.

Topic: Why is the demand still so high for Miners with returns like these? (Read 4643 times)