Topic: Why Socialism is the key - page 19. (Read 33165 times)

So what about those who have no family or those who have a poor family or those who have a family that doesn't want to help them?

Hey funny how you ignore 80% of my answers and only took the ones you wanted no? ^^

Anyway I won't lose much more time about this.

Yes the idea is socialism is to have a redistribution of wealth. Yes the idea of socialism is that the state is here to provide education and health care to EVERYONE and yes the idea of a socialist state is that the rich have to pay a bit more in order for the children of the poor to have a chance to access to a better education. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Let's take it from the other way around:
I'm from a rather poor family. I couldn't pay for my studies. thanks to socialism I had the same chances to access good schools and as I'm hard worker I was able to have a great engineering school.
What is wrong with that? Now I'll create technologies that will help people and society.

What you forget in your flawed reasoning is that numerous people could work and make a better world but they can't as they will never be able to afford the studies.

Socialism is here to give them this opportunity.

Now tell me how bas it is.

Somebody else has to work for it,
but they don't get to keep what they work for.

That's called slavery.






So you're saying that billionaires can exist without lowering anyone else's chances of economic equality?

Or in fact does your plan enforce equality by bringing everyone down to a lower level?






Yes, taking money from people is the same as taking money from people.  

Can you explain any effective difference between taking someone's money to discourage them from selling drugs,
and your plan of taking someone's money to discourage them from curing cancer?






So you want to let disabled people starve?  

Or are you just lying about people only getting paid if they worked?






It is sick and disgusting for you to try to replace family and religion with government.

But at least you've admitted why you want to destroy society -
If people have families, if children have fathers,
then they won't turn to you and other government elites to control their lives.






So now you're admitting that you want to reward failure.

You wasted everyone's time denying it,
because you know people hate your ideas and will never agree unless you lie about what you want to do.

AHAHAHAH xD

Ok I just laughed far too much! Well it's a bit sad to see that an actual human can think so little but it was funny in its own way xD

I'll still try to explain you why your reasoning is false. But please take back your brain from TV, seems you let it there.

Nah, just that somebody else is paying for it, that's called tax.
Nah, you don't have to lower the chances of some, you can also increase the chances of the others.
Whaou, ok in this way you're right if you consider that taking more money from those who have more is the same as "punishing peopl" then yes it is.
Cause it's not punishable? You feel like Fraud shouldn't be punished?
That's the mere principle of "illegal" you know, what would you like to be done on illegal things? Rewarding?
Nope, being successful leads to an increase of taxation, not a fine.
Nope, if you invest the money in the economy then your not taxed, it would be stupid to do so.
Nope again I don't even see how you could fine someone for that
No, in no way, I mean what the heck?
But what the fuck are you saying exactly please? Who would be punished for that? Give me one example in the entire socialist countries history!
Ok I'm a bit tired of repeating myself so same answer as above.
Well if you do this you'll earn barely enough to survive. But yes it's possible if you do nothing more than eating and sleeping all day. Experience shows that less than 0.1% of the population is even using this universal base income and most of them actively look for a job and find one after some time.
What? What's the link?
Hmm... You get paid only if you spent some time working and the time you get paid is proportional to the time you worked. The goal is to let you some time to find another job but if you do nothing you won't get paid for years doing nothing.
Same as above
Dude it's tiring seriously, same as above.
Didn't understand this one
Actually it's the contrary, free education leads to less teenage pregnancy sorry.
I don't see why, seems you have a strange vision of what socialism even mean.
Not the point, the idea is that in a socialist state you're never alone, the state is always here to back you up if you're in need. In fact it's much easier to create things and take risks and responsability knowing that even if you fail the state will take care of your children!

So you're saying you don't understand the ideas you're promoting.

If people get goods and services for free, someone else has to work for free.  Slavery.

If the government enforces "equal chances", then it must punish people who have "better chances" in order to make them equal.

If the government takes more money from "successful" people, then the government punishes success.

Aren't you aware that the government can impose fines and charge people money for breaking the law?
Under your system, here are some examples of crimes that could result in a $1,000,000 fine:
 - Fraud
 - Trafficking illegal drugs
 - Being successful
 - Helping the economy
 - Working harder than other people
 - Inventing a new medicine that saves people's lives
 - Inventing a new technology that improves the quality of life for millions of people
 - Providing something more valuable to other people than what anyone else is providing



Since these are the activities you want to punish,
these are the activities you are discouraging.


Here are the activities you will encourage by paying people to do them:

 - Staying home all day
 - Getting drunk or high every day
 - Never getting a job
 - Not producing anything for society
 - Never doing anything useful for another human being
 - Not providing for your own children
 - Getting pregnant at the age of 15
 - Keeping children away from their own father




Why do you want to reward bad decisions while punishing responsibility?

It made sense during the Cold War when these policies were promoted by our enemies as subversive weapons to destroy Western Civilization, but why are you still promoting them? 

What??? What are you talking about? Who's giving their goods and services for free???
What again? Who's being punished by the government for such thing? What you're saying has absolutely no sense!!!
But what the fuck are you saying? All citizens have equal chances of success, which means once they are successful they got to pay a bit more in order to give the same chances they had to the next generation!
But what the heck?? You seem to have a really terrible and barbaric vision of socialism dude Oo
Nobody will punish you for trying to be successful! On the contrary in socialist countries you'll be helped by the government to launch your activity! France invests millions every year to help young entrepreneurs to create their start-up!

 
So you require slavery, giving yourself "the right" to force other people to work and give you their goods and services for free.






So you will use the violence of the government to punish people for the crimes of being smarter, healthier, or harder-working.






So really you lied when you said all citizens should have equal chance of success? 

Or do you really mean that no one will be allowed a chance to succeed, because they will be punished for trying?

Oh yeah! How horrible is the moral of socialism!!!

Here is the moral and the base of socialism:
-All citizens should have access to the basic needs which are food, education and healthcare.
-All citizens should have equal chance of success (which means for example that the schools of high education have to make anonymous selections)
-The successful citizens and companies should pay a bit more in order to redistribute the wealth and be sure that inequalites in society do not grow bigger and bigger

Please explain me how it's similar to nazism.

It's incredibly easy and it's already happening!

Look at Google! Look at the food industry!!
If government does nothing, then one company (the best) will get bigger and bigger. Then it will slowly absorb any concurrent company or destroy it! In a FREE market as you say, the best company will continue to grow until nobody can get it down. And then it will have a complete and absolute monopoly.

The food industry is currently only 6 companies when it was still hundreds if not thousands only a few decades ago. American banks were dozens, now only 5 of them control everything.

Free market has only one consequence: concentration of power and wealth in a few companies. The richest get richer, the poorest get poorer.

If you don't mind living in something like this, go on and live your American dream.

Again you're wrong and don't understand what it's all about.

First you say there are no self employed people or small companies in socialist countries.
Well France is one of the most socialist countries and 99,8% of our companies are small ones (under 20 persons).

Socialism isn't about removing all and any incentive of being successful. It's about being sure that you being successful profits the whole society.

Without socialism what happens? Companies and people being successful gets money. A lot of. Hence they get power, a lot of. Hence they get more money and more power even more easily!
A totally free market can only leads to monopoles! As the best company will grow and grow and absorbs everything!

You wan't to live without "pay my fair share". As you wish. But it's what makes USA one of the most unequal countries in the world. It's why in the USA student get to take 250k$ loan to get educated.

I prefer live in a country where education and healthcare is free for everyone. Which means every children starts with more or less the same chances of success. I don't see what's wrong with that.

It's the same thing as saying fascism is an extreme form of patriotism 

Communism: Everyone gets exactly the same thing. No personnal entrepreneurship is allowed. State owns everything.
Socialism: Parts of profits are distributed to the population in order to prevent capital and companies to own everything in the end. Basic needs of every one such as food and education are taken in charge by the state in order to make everyone starts in life with similar chances.

They're NOT the same. In socialism personnal entrepreneurship is completely encouraged!

No problem. We all do mistakes from times to times but it's especially common concerning extremely complex notions such as economic and social theories!

Milton Friedman - Socialism is Force

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYeYPcougmA

The discussion is harsh in the same way that if somebody came on these forums and exclaimed "Why Nazism is the Key!", I would denounce it and laugh them out of the room.

It's disgusting. And trying to claim that we're really just confusing Socialism with Communism shows the OP and many others on this thread have no idea regarding the moral philosophy behind their theories.

Yes I'm in favor of FREE markets. FREE meaning that there is not a government body that can be hijacked and used to grant and maintain monopolies. All of the things which lead to monopolies in a capitalist system are entirely due to government.

If you'll read any of the material I linked to, you would start to understand what ALL government is. I don't care if you want to call it Socialism, Communism, Fascism, etc. Those are bullshit ideals that all stem from the same fundamental belief. The belief that the use of coercion is morally acceptable. Socialism is a forced redistribution of wealth through various methods such as taxation, tariffs, and subsidies. It violates private property (your right to the products of your labor) in the same way that all government does.

Now please go ahead and explain how one company (without using government) would rule the world.



Again, you are not understanding what a free market is. Please don't confuse it with what's called Capitalism these days.

What a harsh discussion?
The difference between socialism and communism is most likely that the latter is not a mere ideology, but puts a lot of emphasis on political and economical issues as well,
while socialism has a strong emphasis on being an mere ideology. Reality is different though, as parts of socialism can be found in every democracy of today.
With communism this wouldnt work out this well.  

I think the biggest difference is their origins or intention.
While communism evolving around Marx tries to totally abolish any form of a privileged class, the elimination of any form of cultural hierarchy,
socialism based on famous persons like Jean-Jacques Rousseau tries to have influence on the system of values itself which are embodied in the constitution.
So, socialist are aware of modern forms of government and constitutional rights, and accept them, Marxists mostly didnt, being aware of the negative effects of aristocracy, or oligarchy.
While many people think they are literally the same, the idea behind both differs somewhat. But both dislike elitist groups.

Another fact, socialism is not contrary to individualism or capitalism, nor monarchy or aristocracy, but to any cultural form of despotism.
Lots of people get confused by this, and think socialism is mainly contrary to capitalism.
In fact, capitalism in its most extreme form does arguably share some similarities with despotism.
However, this is not the main idea behind capitalism, its a negative effect.
There are so many ideas and concepts behind capitalism, they are too many to list them all here.
It is not an ad hoc solution, but only one that strictly follows the rules of a free market, trading & currency, investments and companies, profit and property.
You can make your money work! This wouldnt have been possible in our past kingdoms, where citizens used to be serfs. They just were NOT allowed to do that!
For this reason, capitalists dont see themselves as slave traders, but the opposite. This bears some truth, as history proves.
In theory socialism wouldnt have the same problem with such issues, as long as the rulers would fulfill the demands of their citizens. the welfare state.

You are the one who apparently doesn't know what socialism is.  I never said it was communism, but communism is an extreme version of socialism.  You don't understand what a free market is or what capitalism has done for you.  Where was the automobile invented?  Where was the computer invented?  Where was the telephone invented?  On and on it goes, these are the result of free enterprise not government controlled entities.  I do not want to be forced to "pay my fair share", because that is what socialism is about.  It takes away all incentive to become successful.  I have to pay for everyone's education, healthcare, etc?  I should be obligated to take care of me and my children.  If I feel the desire to help others then I can, but should not be forced to do it.  There is a reason that America has been the most inventive and most powerful nation on earth for a years and years, because we aren't a socialist country.  Socialism removes true free enterprise, it will never ever thrive under it.  How many multi billion dollar companies are headquartered in socialist countries?  A few, but most are not.  Because what happens when the government sees a company thriving and they then deem it necessary to control because that would be for the greater good?  I have lived in socialist countries (mexico and spain) and live in the US.  Socialism is not the answer, nor will it ever be.  How many self employed people are there in socialist countries?  According to your statement above, socialist countries are just full of self employed people, which just isn't true.  When you take away the people's free will to take care of others then that is the devil's tool.  America has become more and more socialist and I hate it, it will ruin this great country.

Why are the 2 incredibly different? 
Communism is just an extreme form of socialism.
This site gives a good comparison of the two.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism

I deleted what i Said i made a mistake i got Socialism confused with capitalism, i won't comment on Socialism !!!! . I did google it http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100214/what-difference-between-communism-and-socialism.asp

I was off topic after i saw my mistake so shot me.

Shouldn't this be posted in Politics & Society !!!

cya

That should be taught in each and every American school :-/