Ok I say it for all Americans reading this thread, you all seem to have a problem with that so here it is:
SOCIALISM IS NOT COMMUNISM
If you wanna know the differences just google them. Those two things are incredibly different!
Topic: Why Socialism is the key - page 20. (Read 33165 times)
I don't have a choice? I'd say that's my argument in a nutshell. That's why socialism is morally wrong, the use of force against others to force them to comply because they don't have a choice.
Let me explain further my last post, because it seems maybe my point wasn't clear. Because all judgments are subjective, you eliminate arbitrary law by making all men equal under the law. Take out all subjective judgments and institute only those things which are objectively true: All men are created equal, and all men are equal under the law, and no one has any more right to do anything than anyone else. In this way, everyone has equal rights. Under this style of government, you are free to do whatever you want so long as your actions don't infringe on the freedom of anyone else. All men have the right to life, liberty, and property they've justly earned. No one has the right to take away anyone else's life, liberty, or property. That's equality. And it's the opposite of socialism, which demands taking away, at the very least, the property of others. People who use the power of government to force other people to act in a way they want are morally bankrupt.
So it doesn't matter what 70% of the population believes, and it doesn't matter what the "elites" (as you say) believe. If it takes away someone's life, liberty, or property, it's morally wrong.
Let me explain further my last post, because it seems maybe my point wasn't clear. Because all judgments are subjective, you eliminate arbitrary law by making all men equal under the law. Take out all subjective judgments and institute only those things which are objectively true: All men are created equal, and all men are equal under the law, and no one has any more right to do anything than anyone else. In this way, everyone has equal rights. Under this style of government, you are free to do whatever you want so long as your actions don't infringe on the freedom of anyone else. All men have the right to life, liberty, and property they've justly earned. No one has the right to take away anyone else's life, liberty, or property. That's equality. And it's the opposite of socialism, which demands taking away, at the very least, the property of others. People who use the power of government to force other people to act in a way they want are morally bankrupt.
So it doesn't matter what 70% of the population believes, and it doesn't matter what the "elites" (as you say) believe. If it takes away someone's life, liberty, or property, it's morally wrong.
In which way is socialism not compatible with what you're saying? The fact that no one should tell you what to do or take parts of what you have/earn?
Well it's already the case no?
And you're saying this as if all men were not equal in a socialist country! Why shouldn't they be all equal in the eyes of the law?
The truth is we wouldn't have the technological advancements that we have without capitalism and free enterprise. Computers, cell phones, etc etc are here because of capitalism and free enterprise. So you could say that this forum wouldn't even exist without those things. The socialist countries are not making huge advancements and contributions to medicine, technology or any other field. They may make minor contributions but nothing that truly changes the way things are done. Apple, GE, Samsung (south korea is not socialist) and many, many other companies that produce game changing products do not come from a socialist country because you cannot thrive in such an environment. I grew up in a small town in Iowa, my parents barely made $40k between the 2 of them, so we weren't poor but we sure as heck weren't rich. I obtained an education on my own, I put myself through school by working my butt off. Now, I own an IT company that services hundreds of clients in the Las Vegas area. I couldn't do that under a socialist government. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that big government is the way to fix things.
Again, please educate yourself a bit Americans
Please understand that decades of Cold War biased all of you.
Socialism is NOT capitalism.
Socialism isn't incompatible with free entreprise. On the contrary, socialism is here to help anyone going in life with more or less equal chances and thus allowing anyone to become a successful entrepreneur.
You could do EXACTLY what you've done in a socialist country.
the difference is that your school would be paid, your healthcare would be paid, the institutions would be paid... Everything would be paid fore, and in exchange, when you become successful, the state will take a part of what you earn. Exactly in the same way that if you invest in a company you'll earn part of the profits. It's an investment in future generations.
What do you think? That in socialists countries like France you can't do that?
In France he wouldn't have been allowed to work more than 35 hours per week, because the government decided to limit his income.
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Of course you can, don't say dumb things like that... Difference is that in France YOU have to ASK for it. The company can't impose more hours on you. You think it's a bad thing to give people the choice?
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Well the only difference is that if your government were socialist you wouldn't have to pay for your school that's all!
You would have to pay for your school, even if you didn't go to school, and you would also have to pay for everyone else's school, for the rest of your life.
Yeah that's called solidarity, it's in our official moto. You'll have to pay for high educational institutions all your life and you know why? Because having a highly educated population means you'll have more innovative techs, more companies, more quality products, in a word: a better average quality of life.
You pay for the school of others cause that's an investment we decided to do in our future generations. You don't want to do that? Well just leave and go to the USA, here nobody pays for the school so if your child wants to go, he'll have to take a 200k$ study loan.
What's better? Taking money from those who earn it or asking a 18 years old student to start his life with a debt big enough to buy 3 small houses?
Me I've chosen. And so did the whole Europe.
What do you think? That in socialists countries like France you can't do that?
In France he wouldn't have been allowed to work more than 35 hours per week, because the government decided to limit his income.
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Well the only difference is that if your government were socialist you wouldn't have to pay for your school that's all!
You would have to pay for your school, even if you didn't go to school, and you would also have to pay for everyone else's school, for the rest of your life.
The truth is we wouldn't have the technological advancements that we have without capitalism and free enterprise. Computers, cell phones, etc etc are here because of capitalism and free enterprise. So you could say that this forum wouldn't even exist without those things. The socialist countries are not making huge advancements and contributions to medicine, technology or any other field. They may make minor contributions but nothing that truly changes the way things are done. Apple, GE, Samsung (south korea is not socialist) and many, many other companies that produce game changing products do not come from a socialist country because you cannot thrive in such an environment. I grew up in a small town in Iowa, my parents barely made $40k between the 2 of them, so we weren't poor but we sure as heck weren't rich. I obtained an education on my own, I put myself through school by working my butt off. Now, I own an IT company that services hundreds of clients in the Las Vegas area. I couldn't do that under a socialist government. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that big government is the way to fix things.
Of course you could have done that!
Socialism isn't communism for God sakes! Please Americans educate yourself...
What do you think? That in socialists countries like France you can't do that? Well the only difference is that if your government were socialist you wouldn't have to pay for your school that's all!
because the socializing you can make people believe, and closer to the people, even you can get the information you want if you're very good at socializing
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.
This is what i've been saying for a couple years now. If you have a public sector to be proud of and one that is corruption free then society will engage in a more meaningful way. Lets keep the private business out of public affairs.
Exactly
The main problem is that governments are giving out to private sectors everything that is profitable! They keep only the expenses in public sector! THE OF COURSE IT COSTS MONEY!! ><
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.
This is what i've been saying for a couple years now. If you have a public sector to be proud of and one that is corruption free then society will engage in a more meaningful way. Lets keep the private business out of public affairs.
I find a lots of people here saying things like "Socialism is the worst thing ever, it doesn't work and it's why the government have so much debt".
Well clearly it is not and socialism is the only way to go.
I'm French, I'm from a socialist country and solidarity is extremely important here.
Here is a common example given by people saying socialism is the worst thing ever: Healthcare costs around 2 billions of debt every year to the country.
So people are saying that we shouldn't give so much. That we shouldn't help each other so much.
I say bullshit nothing more.
The private sector of health is 36 billions every year. Just nationalize this shit and you'll get enough money to repay the health debt, triple the employment, repay part of national debt and lower the taxes!
It's the same for all sectors! What is profitable has been privatised by corrupted politician and only what costs money is left for the state! Another example? Yeah the Highways were sold to private companies! Just after they were repayed by tolls.
The only thing killing socialism is greed. Greed and corruption.
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.
yes,socialism is he key,its will depend how the country build the future of human interaction,not only that,socialism also have decision for all goodness,we help each other and everybody deserve to helped,the only thing that will make socialism not work properly,there was so many rich people who dont care about other people,that's bad for socialism.Well clearly it is not and socialism is the only way to go.
I'm French, I'm from a socialist country and solidarity is extremely important here.
Here is a common example given by people saying socialism is the worst thing ever: Healthcare costs around 2 billions of debt every year to the country.
So people are saying that we shouldn't give so much. That we shouldn't help each other so much.
I say bullshit nothing more.
The private sector of health is 36 billions every year. Just nationalize this shit and you'll get enough money to repay the health debt, triple the employment, repay part of national debt and lower the taxes!
It's the same for all sectors! What is profitable has been privatised by corrupted politician and only what costs money is left for the state! Another example? Yeah the Highways were sold to private companies! Just after they were repayed by tolls.
The only thing killing socialism is greed. Greed and corruption.
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.
Right Socialism is the only system through which a mutual understanding of the people next to us can be known. In socialism everyone gets everything and for one mans right the whole people get united. This will make a lot changes in growth of the country as quoted by mate.
I find a lots of people here saying things like "Socialism is the worst thing ever, it doesn't work and it's why the government have so much debt".
Well clearly it is not and socialism is the only way to go.
I'm French, I'm from a socialist country and solidarity is extremely important here.
Here is a common example given by people saying socialism is the worst thing ever: Healthcare costs around 2 billions of debt every year to the country.
So people are saying that we shouldn't give so much. That we shouldn't help each other so much.
I say bullshit nothing more.
The private sector of health is 36 billions every year. Just nationalize this shit and you'll get enough money to repay the health debt, triple the employment, repay part of national debt and lower the taxes!
It's the same for all sectors! What is profitable has been privatised by corrupted politician and only what costs money is left for the state! Another example? Yeah the Highways were sold to private companies! Just after they were repayed by tolls.
The only thing killing socialism is greed. Greed and corruption.
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.
yes,socialism is he key,its will depend how the country build the future of human interaction,not only that,socialism also have decision for all goodness,we help each other and everybody deserve to helped,the only thing that will make socialism not work properly,there was so many rich people who dont care about other people,that's bad for socialism. Well clearly it is not and socialism is the only way to go.
I'm French, I'm from a socialist country and solidarity is extremely important here.
Here is a common example given by people saying socialism is the worst thing ever: Healthcare costs around 2 billions of debt every year to the country.
So people are saying that we shouldn't give so much. That we shouldn't help each other so much.
I say bullshit nothing more.
The private sector of health is 36 billions every year. Just nationalize this shit and you'll get enough money to repay the health debt, triple the employment, repay part of national debt and lower the taxes!
It's the same for all sectors! What is profitable has been privatised by corrupted politician and only what costs money is left for the state! Another example? Yeah the Highways were sold to private companies! Just after they were repayed by tolls.
The only thing killing socialism is greed. Greed and corruption.
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.
I find a lots of people here saying things like "Socialism is the worst thing ever, it doesn't work and it's why the government have so much debt".
Well clearly it is not and socialism is the only way to go.
I'm French, I'm from a socialist country and solidarity is extremely important here.
Here is a common example given by people saying socialism is the worst thing ever: Healthcare costs around 2 billions of debt every year to the country.
So people are saying that we shouldn't give so much. That we shouldn't help each other so much.
I say bullshit nothing more.
The private sector of health is 36 billions every year. Just nationalize this shit and you'll get enough money to repay the health debt, triple the employment, repay part of national debt and lower the taxes!
It's the same for all sectors! What is profitable has been privatised by corrupted politician and only what costs money is left for the state! Another example? Yeah the Highways were sold to private companies! Just after they were repayed by tolls.
The only thing killing socialism is greed. Greed and corruption.
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.
Well clearly it is not and socialism is the only way to go.
I'm French, I'm from a socialist country and solidarity is extremely important here.
Here is a common example given by people saying socialism is the worst thing ever: Healthcare costs around 2 billions of debt every year to the country.
So people are saying that we shouldn't give so much. That we shouldn't help each other so much.
I say bullshit nothing more.
The private sector of health is 36 billions every year. Just nationalize this shit and you'll get enough money to repay the health debt, triple the employment, repay part of national debt and lower the taxes!
It's the same for all sectors! What is profitable has been privatised by corrupted politician and only what costs money is left for the state! Another example? Yeah the Highways were sold to private companies! Just after they were repayed by tolls.
The only thing killing socialism is greed. Greed and corruption.
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.
Holy Fuck! Have you seriously not read a book in your life?
Do you even understand the difference between a free market exchange and a government service? One is a voluntary exchange of services for mutual benefit and the other provided under threat that if you don't pay "your fair share", you'll be thrown in jail. Try not paying your taxes and see what happens.
NO, greed is not the problem. Greed is a fact of life, however when greed is combined state power it becomes a problem. In a competitive market, greed is just inviting competition because others can see there is an opportunity to provide the service for less.
If you want a Democracy where EVERYONE gets their voice, then you should be in favor of free markets where everybody votes with their dollar. You don't like something, than you don't buy it. Voting is nothing more than a tyranny of the majority.
I suggest you shut your communist mouth and get an education.
http://www.amazon.com/Theory-Socialism-Capitalism-LvMI-ebook/dp/B004UBG388/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1456376839&sr=8-12&keywords=lvmi
http://www.amazon.com/Socialism-Sociological-Ludwig-von-Mises/dp/0913966630/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1456376759&sr=8-3&keywords=ludwig+von+mises
http://www.amazon.com/Democracy---God-That-Failed-Perspectives/dp/0765808684/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456377017&sr=8-1&keywords=democracy+the+god+that+failed
http://www.amazon.com/New-Liberty-Libertarian-Manifesto/dp/1478280719/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456376593&sr=8-1&keywords=murray+rothbard+for+a+new+liberty
http://www.amazon.com/Discovery-Freedom-Struggle-Against-Authority/dp/1503117553/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456376656&sr=8-1&keywords=discovery+of+freedom+rose+wilder+lane
http://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Anarchy-Freedom-Stefan-Molyneux-ebook/dp/B004Z821GE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456376687&sr=8-1&keywords=everyday+anarchy
http://www.amazon.com/Ethics-Liberty-Murray-N-Rothbard/dp/0814775594/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456376731&sr=8-1&keywords=murray+rothbard+ethics
I would really like to know WTF the US is thinking with the new thing in congress about trade TPP i think it's called it lets china and few others in the west tell us what to do if it passes one of the laws in it ,we won't have the right to know were the meat we eat is coming from or what it is or whats in it , and other things.
What we need to do here is stop helping others and help our self then think about helping others again or do what our first Pres said and that was don't get in involved in the A fairs of others trade with them help them if they ask for it maintain peace but above all things don't get involved beyond watching and helping as needed when asked to don't fight there wars unless it involve us like ww2 . the leaders fight to much over riches and don't care much for the people anymore in the US but this trade agreement is the worse thing yet they want to do or try i had no idea was going on . it is as bad as when bash tried to sell off the Baltimore docks to the Arabs and homeland security said there was no issues it was safe to do.
CYa
What we need to do here is stop helping others and help our self then think about helping others again or do what our first Pres said and that was don't get in involved in the A fairs of others trade with them help them if they ask for it maintain peace but above all things don't get involved beyond watching and helping as needed when asked to don't fight there wars unless it involve us like ww2 . the leaders fight to much over riches and don't care much for the people anymore in the US but this trade agreement is the worse thing yet they want to do or try i had no idea was going on . it is as bad as when bash tried to sell off the Baltimore docks to the Arabs and homeland security said there was no issues it was safe to do.
CYa
The TPP is hundred of pages long. To simplify it down to 'we don't know where our meat is coming from' is a gross oversimplification, and ignores all the benefits it brings American industry. As with all things, some industries lose and some industries win when the government gets involved. But the TPP isn't really relevant to this thread, so I'm not sure why you brought it up.
Interesting comment, thanks for your constructive answer.
Well it is true that by giving the absolute power to the majority, you hence take the risk of the majority being wrong.
But a few things allow me to have faith in such a situation:
-First majority doesn't mean 51%. Majority can be higher. It would seem rather logical to write in the first constitution of such a democracy that any law needs 65% of the people vote to get approved. Being hence sure that the people really wants that and not that it's close to civil war with a big 50/50. We can also ensure some stability by saying that changing the consitution needs 80% of approval, hence only crucial changes can be written in the constitution.
-Second, I strongly believe in transformation under responsability. Indirect democracy made people weak and stupid. They're not interested in politics and easily manipulated, because they all know they can't change anything. But if tomorrow they know they have the faith of the country in their hand, I do believe they'll get much more involved on politics. Exactly as the Greeks citizens did thousands of years ago.
-Third, moral is subjective. If more than 70% of the population wants something, who are you to say it's bad? What kind of moral absolute value could you take?
-Fourth, developped countries have a high education hence strong history knowledge and shouldn't tend to repeat mistakes.
Of course I can't guarantee anything, but it's still what I believe.
Well it is true that by giving the absolute power to the majority, you hence take the risk of the majority being wrong.
But a few things allow me to have faith in such a situation:
-First majority doesn't mean 51%. Majority can be higher. It would seem rather logical to write in the first constitution of such a democracy that any law needs 65% of the people vote to get approved. Being hence sure that the people really wants that and not that it's close to civil war with a big 50/50. We can also ensure some stability by saying that changing the consitution needs 80% of approval, hence only crucial changes can be written in the constitution.
-Second, I strongly believe in transformation under responsability. Indirect democracy made people weak and stupid. They're not interested in politics and easily manipulated, because they all know they can't change anything. But if tomorrow they know they have the faith of the country in their hand, I do believe they'll get much more involved on politics. Exactly as the Greeks citizens did thousands of years ago.
-Third, moral is subjective. If more than 70% of the population wants something, who are you to say it's bad? What kind of moral absolute value could you take?
-Fourth, developped countries have a high education hence strong history knowledge and shouldn't tend to repeat mistakes.
Of course I can't guarantee anything, but it's still what I believe.
Addressing the bold points, the fact that morality is subjective is exactly why you need to restrict government to the most basic rights. In the southern US in the middle 19th century, there was widespread consensus that slavery was a justifiable economic model and that black people were inferior and therefore could have no rights as human beings. The notion was so widely accepted that the Supreme Court itself ruled that blacks had no rights under the Constitution. This is clearly an immoral and unjust viewpoint, despite being widely supported. Democracy clearly failed in this instance. The popularity of an idea has no relation to its morality, so simply saying that something that enjoys 70+ percent approval does not make it a legitimate point. Because morality is subjective, we need to limit government to a role of protecting the most fundamental freedoms that everyone agrees every person possesses: life and liberty especially, and most people will also include property. As a nation, we can decide that certain people do not have the right to be free and must serve as slaves for the benefit of the rest of society, and this idea could have the approval of 99% of the population. It is still an evil notion, and the role of government is to enforce everyone's rights equally, and especially to protect the minority who the majority would otherwise take advantage of if given the opportunity. When you have unequal rights, you have arbitrary law, and arbitrary law is unequivocally evil. Arbitrary law is what the American Revolution was fought over, and the Declaration of Independence was an indictment of the British practice of instituting arbitrary law to suit their whims. And the history of socialized government is one that has repeatedly instituted some measure of arbitrary law, because there is no way you can protect all rights equally while also redistributing wealth, because it necessitates infringing some group's rights arbitrarily under the direction of popular government.
You're missing an important point:
You don't have a choice.
You're telling me "it's not because 70% of population agrees on it that it's good".
Fair enough. But then?
If it's not the people who decides, who will? An elite? Lol, we all know what "elite" do...
I don't have a choice? I'd say that's my argument in a nutshell. That's why socialism is morally wrong, the use of force against others to force them to comply because they don't have a choice.
Let me explain further my last post, because it seems maybe my point wasn't clear. Because all judgments are subjective, you eliminate arbitrary law by making all men equal under the law. Take out all subjective judgments and institute only those things which are objectively true: All men are created equal, and all men are equal under the law, and no one has any more right to do anything than anyone else. In this way, everyone has equal rights. Under this style of government, you are free to do whatever you want so long as your actions don't infringe on the freedom of anyone else. All men have the right to life, liberty, and property they've justly earned. No one has the right to take away anyone else's life, liberty, or property. That's equality. And it's the opposite of socialism, which demands taking away, at the very least, the property of others. People who use the power of government to force other people to act in a way they want are morally bankrupt.
So it doesn't matter what 70% of the population believes, and it doesn't matter what the "elites" (as you say) believe. If it takes away someone's life, liberty, or property, it's morally wrong.
well I have to agree with your opinion about socialism, especially the part of greed and corruption which will end socialism. Living in a socialist country, I have to say corruption is at its worst. Everything needs some money to get it done fast and billions are stolen by corrupted officials
It is not the problem of socialism alone. Corruption is bane of any political system. Saying that in socialism corruption it is worse is usually untrue.But seeing how socialists regimes of some countries are riddled with corruption is somewhat interesting. I have been reading about Venezuela recently.
Amount of problems caused by socialist government for this country created the biggest crisis in the history of this nation, coincidence?
If socialism principles are followed in the right way there won't be any problem. As many quoted the major drawback in the socialistic government is the corruption which is initiated because of greediness which collapses the entire beauty of the system by harming common people.
The truth is we wouldn't have the technological advancements that we have without capitalism and free enterprise. Computers, cell phones, etc etc are here because of capitalism and free enterprise. So you could say that this forum wouldn't even exist without those things. The socialist countries are not making huge advancements and contributions to medicine, technology or any other field. They may make minor contributions but nothing that truly changes the way things are done. Apple, GE, Samsung (south korea is not socialist) and many, many other companies that produce game changing products do not come from a socialist country because you cannot thrive in such an environment. I grew up in a small town in Iowa, my parents barely made $40k between the 2 of them, so we weren't poor but we sure as heck weren't rich. I obtained an education on my own, I put myself through school by working my butt off. Now, I own an IT company that services hundreds of clients in the Las Vegas area. I couldn't do that under a socialist government. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that big government is the way to fix things.
I think maybe we need a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Right now in America we sort of have that but it's a little out of skew right now. For example, we say private business in America is capitalism, but then when one of these businesses that is making huge amounts of money and then it fails (like the big bank fail), then the government bails them out. That is socializing the losses and privatizing the gains. We also give subsidies to big oil companies that don't need it.
Yeah but that's not socialism at all... That's taking from the people to pay for banks and industries, socialism is the other way around!
I think maybe we need a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Right now in America we sort of have that but it's a little out of skew right now. For example, we say private business in America is capitalism, but then when one of these businesses that is making huge amounts of money and then it fails (like the big bank fail), then the government bails them out. That is socializing the losses and privatizing the gains. We also give subsidies to big oil companies that don't need it.
Yeah, the idea is not that socialism and the voice of people is perfection. But it's the best that we have right now, or well the best that we could have.
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