Will The Bitcoin Investment Trust affect the price? - page 2.

BitChick

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Quote from: bobdude17 on October 14, 2013, 04:48:36 PM

No NAV calculation today? What gives?

Edit: Also the Investor Presentation is now marked private? This does not give me a good feeling at all... Government finally having an issue?

Historical Net Asset Value

The Net Asset Value (NAV) of the Bitcoin Investment Trust is calculated daily at 4pm ET*. Historical NAV:

October 14, 2013: $14.27
October 11, 2013: $13.03
October 10, 2013: $13.14
October 9, 2013: $13.03
October 8, 2013: $12.52
October 7, 2013: $12.77
October 4, 2013: $12.63
October 3, 2013: $11.70
October 2, 2013: $11.86
October 1, 2013: $13.22
September 30, 2013: $13.26
September 27, 2013: $13.35
September 26, 2013: $12.67
September 25, 2013: $12.88

bobdude17

sr. member

Activity: 454

Merit: 250

No NAV calculation today? What gives?

Edit: Also the Investor Presentation is now marked private? This does not give me a good feeling at all... Government finally having an issue?

BitChick

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1001

Quote from: User705 on October 11, 2013, 02:05:18 PM

To be honest with the way the price dropped on SR news and then quickly recovered but can't seem to go above 130-140 feels very manipulated. Combined with various exchanges having withdrawals issues it's starting to feel like tinfoil hat time.

There is probably some manipulation going on but at some point the people with the power to manipulate will want the price to go up so I guess it is best to just be patient I would think.

BitChick

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Quote from: SheHadMANHands on October 11, 2013, 03:01:51 PM

Quote from: SecondMarket

Historical Net Asset Value

The Net Asset Value (NAV) of the Bitcoin Investment Trust is calculated daily at 4pm ET*. Historical NAV:
October 10, 2013: $13.14
October 9, 2013: $13.03
October 8, 2013: $12.52
October 7, 2013: $12.77
October 4, 2013: $12.63
October 3, 2013: $11.70
October 2, 2013: $11.86
October 1, 2013: $13.22
September 30, 2013: $13.26
September 27, 2013: $13.35
September 26, 2013: $12.67
September 25, 2013: $12.88

This actually looks great to a potential investor IMO. Especially in light of Silk Road getting closed right in the middle.

Right. With the Silk Road closure this is very impressive. Now if it bumps up to $15 or $20 there will hopefully be some very interested investors I would think. At some point it is stupid NOT to take a risk.

SheHadMANHands

legendary

Activity: 1168

Merit: 1000

Quote from: SecondMarket

Historical Net Asset Value

The Net Asset Value (NAV) of the Bitcoin Investment Trust is calculated daily at 4pm ET*. Historical NAV:
October 10, 2013: $13.14
October 9, 2013: $13.03
October 8, 2013: $12.52
October 7, 2013: $12.77
October 4, 2013: $12.63
October 3, 2013: $11.70
October 2, 2013: $11.86
October 1, 2013: $13.22
September 30, 2013: $13.26
September 27, 2013: $13.35
September 26, 2013: $12.67
September 25, 2013: $12.88

This actually looks great to a potential investor IMO. Especially in light of Silk Road getting closed right in the middle.

User705

legendary

Activity: 896

Merit: 1006

First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold

To be honest with the way the price dropped on SR news and then quickly recovered but can't seem to go above 130-140 feels very manipulated. Combined with various exchanges having withdrawals issues it's starting to feel like tinfoil hat time.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

I am quite honestly surprised there's not been more price movement because of this...!

User705

legendary

Activity: 896

Merit: 1006

First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 30, 2013, 11:21:48 AM

this is all building in the direction i personally conceptualized from the beginning of my involvement in Bitcoin in early 2011. that of a Bitcoin Standard.

it seems reasonable that derivative products such as BIT will continue to be developed. this is good in that it increases liquidity and velocity. taking it one step further, i can easily see the use of the USD and other fiat currencies being fractionally reserved off of a Bitcoin Standard, much like gold was used prior to 1971.

it would be so easy to implement and it would bring a much needed discipline to the market.

there is no reason Bitcoin needs to bring Armageddon.

That would imply a huge jump up in exchange rate and total valuation. Also in order for derivatives to work it would imply some sort of control by authorities of the underlining bitcoin but how do you see it integrated or rather brought under control of authorities or do you picture them just bowing down to the new bitcoin trillionaires like yourself? Honestly I agree with what you are saying except for one thing. Power in the world has never passed peacefully from one group to another and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Gold has been outlawed before. Is it not possible that before the endgame of derivatives based on bitcoin the government will issue the exact same order. Bitcoin hoarders must turn in their bitcoins. That's assuming bitcoins won't get outlawed in general before then.

600watt

legendary

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de-railed thread

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: 600watt on October 01, 2013, 05:59:56 AM

just a reminder...

I do not know what you are reminding me of.

600watt

legendary

Activity: 2338

Merit: 2106

just a reminder...

Tzupy

legendary

Activity: 2170

Merit: 1094

Yes, let some altcoins be lab rats for Zerocoin, and ONLY if it can be done without a hard fork, add it to Bitcoin.

klee

legendary

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1000

Quote from: HeliKopterBen on October 01, 2013, 05:22:56 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: NewLiberty on September 30, 2013, 08:35:38 PM

Quote from: HeliKopterBen on September 30, 2013, 08:07:41 PM

Zerocoin does not need to be implemented directly into the core protocol. These services can work just as well outside bitcoin with only access to the system. Additional features only add to the risk for problems to occur such as the March fork. If these features are not an absolute requirement for the system to work properly then they should be left out.

Zerocoin's use with Litecoin might be considered?

I doubt that the dev team has the chops... Maybe PPC.

Ok. Let an alt coin test it and work out the bugs, not just testnet. If successful, then maybe put it in bitcoin if necessary, especially if the alt coin gains market share, presumably because of zerocoin.

Alt coins currently working on 0coin:
Anoncoin, Megacoin, Novacoin, Neocoin

HeliKopterBen

hero member

Activity: 622

Merit: 500

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: NewLiberty on September 30, 2013, 08:35:38 PM

Quote from: HeliKopterBen on September 30, 2013, 08:07:41 PM

Zerocoin does not need to be implemented directly into the core protocol. These services can work just as well outside bitcoin with only access to the system. Additional features only add to the risk for problems to occur such as the March fork. If these features are not an absolute requirement for the system to work properly then they should be left out.

Zerocoin's use with Litecoin might be considered?

I doubt that the dev team has the chops... Maybe PPC.

Ok. Let an alt coin test it and work out the bugs, not just testnet. If successful, then maybe put it in bitcoin if necessary, especially if the alt coin gains market share, presumably because of zerocoin.

NewLiberty

legendary

Activity: 1204

Merit: 1002

Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: HeliKopterBen on September 30, 2013, 08:07:41 PM

Zerocoin does not need to be implemented directly into the core protocol. These services can work just as well outside bitcoin with only access to the system. Additional features only add to the risk for problems to occur such as the March fork. If these features are not an absolute requirement for the system to work properly then they should be left out.

Zerocoin's use with Litecoin might be considered?

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

HISTORICAL NET ASSET VALUE/PER SHARE (NAV):*

September 30, 2013:   $13.26
September 27, 2013:   $13.35
September 26, 2013:   $12.67
September 25, 2013:   $12.88

HeliKopterBen

hero member

Activity: 622

Merit: 500

Zerocoin does not need to be implemented directly into the core protocol. These services can work just as well outside bitcoin with only access to the system. Additional features only add to the risk for problems to occur such as the March fork. If these features are not an absolute requirement for the system to work properly then they should be left out.

NewLiberty

legendary

Activity: 1204

Merit: 1002

Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: Stephen Gornick on September 30, 2013, 11:14:08 AM

Quote from: adamstgBit on September 25, 2013, 08:44:32 PM

So let's speculate, will price be affected? by how much? and why?

There is demand for leverage such that today someone wanting to buy a bitcoin using leverage has to pay a price that is 10% over the current spot price and still has to wait nearly 90 days to get delivery. See the BUZ3 (December 16, 2013 settlement) futures contract on ICBIT as an example:
- https://icbit.se

The only thing needed to profit from this is a supply of bitcoins that you can "lock up" for 90 days. Oh, look .... the fine print for BIT says your funds might get locked up on you:

Quote

An investment in the BIT will be illiquid and there may be significant restrictions on transferring interests in the BIT.

- https://www.secondmarket.com/fund/bitcoin-investment-trust

So Bitcoin is just like any other commodity or security in that there are derivative products and profit exists. Seeing more funds emerge will help Bitcoin because it will help the commodity be used to solve problems more efficiently or used in new ways. While it would seem this increased usage of bitcoins would only put upward pressure on the exchange rate, don't forget that providing liquidity for that wanting to go short on Bitcoin is likely one of the possibility a fund like BIT brings as well.

Yes, this is so. It opens the possibility of some large financial interest, or even a bank or central bank with arguable legislative approval (and who's function is to manipulate currencies) can take large short positions covered only by their ability to print money. This is limited to SecondMarket's ability to lend bitcoins for sale, but as you point out it may be "illiquid" which means that they don't guarantee that there are any buyers if you want to sell shares, or that there are any sellers if you want to buy, except themselves.
It doesn't pass Coindesk's test for setting price for their index.

My speculation on the effects (not on the market in general, just BIT's effect on the market) is:
Short term bear (the funds to buy the starting btc are spent, some who would have bought in the market exchanges in the near term will buy BIT instead.)
Long term Bull (as the potential for bigger money and new avenues of money may be invested, SecondMarket may need to start buying again)

cypherdoc

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Quote from: ?? on ??

With Zerocoin they would be able to preserve more of the advantage available to them through proprietary channels.

this would only be a temporary effect to pay off existing corrupt channels of information asymmetry.

but by using Bitcoin in the long term, the playing field is leveled and that advantage will erode away. their whole advantage today exists b/c of control of the printing presses.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 30, 2013, 02:42:58 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 30, 2013, 02:30:50 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

That is, unless the Zerocoin protocols are implemented.

to the global financial system? Cheesy

As it is, the blockchain is a rich source of data. It will reveal more about the economies it touches—as it touches more of them. I observe by your comment that you do not see this.

no, i agree that Bitcoin is already shining a big bright light on the current global financial systems infragilities.

it's just that the way you wrote your post it implies that the anonymous Zerocoin protocol could be applied to that fragile system instead of what it was intended to anonymize, ie, Bitcoin.

It would also obfuscate more finely grained information that is presently stored in the blockchain. It presents an interesting problem for behind-the-scenes movers of money. On the one hand, it would be a tremendous advantage to them, but only if it preserves the differential in information available to them for a high cost, and nobody else. As long as that fine-grained information is available to any ol' grad student for free it presents much less of an advantage. With Zerocoin they would be able to preserve more of the advantage available to them through proprietary channels. But then, it would also provide more protection, in the form of information leakage, to individuals—somewhat leveling the playing field in the information wars.

Bitcoin, by itself, already is a tool that the 99.99% of the population will be able to use pseudonomously to protect themselves. in fact, it seems pretty anonymous in my hands. and it is already changing the global financial landscape even though you might not realize it yet.

if the academics can find a way to implement Zerocoin in an effective, efficient way to make anonymity guaranteed, it's all over for traditional Wall Street which depends on information obscurity and well as bail ins. i really hope the folks at Hopkins figure it out.

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