Topic: Withdrawing Bitcoin off the radar (Read 701 times)
Seem difficult these days to keep your wallet out of the radar from exchanges and transactions that could link your account to a network that is KYCed.
I was thinking recently of just scouting for stores that accept BTC and just negotiating with the merchant itself for less than market price I guess. This is possible since the merchant is probably thinking the same completely out of the radar.
Hello there,
As I was driving earlier, this thought came through my mind. I've been accumulating Bitcoin for quite some time now, and at some point eventually I'll have to withdraw it in fiat, at least some of it. I'm not sure when that time will come, and I'm definitely not selling for anything below $50,000, but that's another story. However, I've always kept my bitcoin away from exchanges, and I prefer that it stays that way for obvious reasons that have been discussed numerous times in the forum.
Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.
A p2p is good thing and make sure it will happen personally but you should be careful of course, you are holding and want to trade a large amount of money and you will be dealing with most probably a person who doesn't know you and you doesn't know as well but I think some people I knew exchange their bitcoin inside the casino I knew someone here in our country. They are doing transactions inside the casino only. Withdrawing huge amount of money without having a big business is questionable to banks and you will be tag as launderer maybe try to withdraw little by little if you want bank I guess. As I was driving earlier, this thought came through my mind. I've been accumulating Bitcoin for quite some time now, and at some point eventually I'll have to withdraw it in fiat, at least some of it. I'm not sure when that time will come, and I'm definitely not selling for anything below $50,000, but that's another story. However, I've always kept my bitcoin away from exchanges, and I prefer that it stays that way for obvious reasons that have been discussed numerous times in the forum.
Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.
how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.
If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.
My point was that you will most likely be questioned by authorities on the source of those funds and you'd have to admit that they were cashed out from cryptocurrency holdings or risk an arrest, or seizure of those funds.
Admitting that will of course lead to even more questions on where did you obtain the crypto from, since police deal with a ton of scammers that have a modulus operandi like that.
Why do you think you will be questioned if you'll have this cash in your wallet? We're not talking about a suitcase full of money like they show it in movies, but a bunch of 500EUR banknotes in your wallet. Besides, you can rent a car and drive home and avoid all these security checks, customs etc.
Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.
Large cash purchases is also not a problem. There are sellers and companies ready to do everything to make some profit. You can buy a $100k car with cash for example without an issue. The dealer will think of a way to do this. You certainly need to do research in which countries it's possible, in some countries you can get in trouble!
Generally, everyone has the right to refuse to accept such a large bill, and as I've already mentioned, we usually didn't have the necessary change to return.
Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.
Impossible. Euro is legal tender in the EU. The only reason they can refuse is because they have no smaller bills handy or some other technical reason. Otherwise, they're breaking the law and you can report them.
Legal tender aside, but each member of the EU has its own rules, so in some places you will even see a sign that clearly shows that you cannot pay with a 500 EUR bill. Today I read an article on a local portal about how a man filled fuel worth 50 EU and tried to pay with a 500 EUR bill, and not only that they did not accept that banknote, but he also experienced considerable inconvenience from the staff - some say that bill is called "Bin Laden" because of the assumption that it facilitated the financing of terrorism and money laundering.
Of course, after the banknote stopped being printed in 2016, it was not established that the financing of terrorism and money laundering had anything to do with banknotes of that value.
Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.
One of the most difficult aspects of getting started with bitcoin is converting it into fiat currency. Those who live in countries that have strict regulation of bitcoin and collect large taxes from them have harmed the crypto world. A peer-to-peer transaction is the best option right now because exchanges have made it easier to do those transactions where they serve as the escrow.
Even so, one must be extra cautious when dealing with them because some of them can easily steal your coins, which would not be at the expense of the exchange. If bitcoin becomes a legal tender, almost everyone will have a wallet you can do transaction to without having to change it to fiat currency first.
Everybody seems to be discussing exchanging Bitcoin for fiat. Isn't that against the original Bitcoin philosophy? I accept Bitcoin for domain name sales and a few other things. That seems to be a far better idea than supporting a dying banking system.
I wish I could, but unfortunately most of my daily expenses can't be paid by Bitcoin (yet). I'd have to travel to Arnhem to get groceries for example.Quote
It would be interesting to find out the tax implications in selling a classic Volvo car for Bitcoin. Private car sales are gains tax exempt in the UK.
Here, I don't think there would be direct tax implications. 
Everybody seems to be discussing exchanging Bitcoin for fiat. Isn't that against the original Bitcoin philosophy? I accept Bitcoin for domain name sales and a few other things. That seems to be a far better idea than supporting a dying banking system.
It would be interesting to find out the tax implications in selling a classic Volvo car for Bitcoin. Private car sales are gains tax exempt in the UK.
It would be interesting to find out the tax implications in selling a classic Volvo car for Bitcoin. Private car sales are gains tax exempt in the UK.
Impossible. Euro is legal tender in the EU.
Here the law doesn't force anyone to accept legal tender.Quote
What many people do to "optimize" taxes is register it under your company/business (if you own one). If you live in the Netherlands for example, you can register a business in Belgium
You can, but you're not allowed to drive it in the Netherlands. Anyone else can, as long as they don't live here. Otherwise nobody would pay the very high Dutch car taxes. I'd love to have a cheap, low-tax car with German plates! 
Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.
That must depend on your country. Here, even 100 euro bills are often refused. I don't think banks will exchange them either, they don't earn from it and many banks here don't even have a cash register anymore.Quote
Large cash purchases is also not a problem. There are sellers and companies ready to do everything to make some profit. You can buy a $100k car with cash for example without an issue. The dealer will think of a way to do this. You certainly need to do research in which countries it's possible, in some countries you can get in trouble!
Even if you find a car dealer who sells you the car, it needs to be registered, which means you can get questions about it later. And if the money didn't come from a clear source, you can't explain how you paid for it.This reminds me: Al Capone got caught on tax fraud. You may get away with it, but I wouldn't be comfortable taking the risk.
Impossible. Euro is legal tender in the EU. The only reason they can refuse is because they have no smaller bills handy or some other technical reason. Otherwise, they're breaking the law and you can report them.
Regarding vehicles, yes you need registration. What many people do to "optimize" taxes is register it under your company/business (if you own one). If you live in the Netherlands for example, you can register a business in Belgium etc (not sure about these exact countries just mentioning them as an example). There are so many tricks allowing to circumvent the laws we can't even imagine.
Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.
That must depend on your country. Here, even 100 euro bills are often refused. I don't think banks will exchange them either, they don't earn from it and many banks here don't even have a cash register anymore.Quote
Large cash purchases is also not a problem. There are sellers and companies ready to do everything to make some profit. You can buy a $100k car with cash for example without an issue. The dealer will think of a way to do this. You certainly need to do research in which countries it's possible, in some countries you can get in trouble!
Even if you find a car dealer who sells you the car, it needs to be registered, which means you can get questions about it later. And if the money didn't come from a clear source, you can't explain how you paid for it.This reminds me: Al Capone got caught on tax fraud. You may get away with it, but I wouldn't be comfortable taking the risk.
how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.
If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.
My point was that you will most likely be questioned by authorities on the source of those funds and you'd have to admit that they were cashed out from cryptocurrency holdings or risk an arrest, or seizure of those funds.
Admitting that will of course lead to even more questions on where did you obtain the crypto from, since police deal with a ton of scammers that have a modulus operandi like that.
Why do you think you will be questioned if you'll have this cash in your wallet? We're not talking about a suitcase full of money like they show it in movies, but a bunch of 500EUR banknotes in your wallet. Besides, you can rent a car and drive home and avoid all these security checks, customs etc.
Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.
Large cash purchases is also not a problem. There are sellers and companies ready to do everything to make some profit. You can buy a $100k car with cash for example without an issue. The dealer will think of a way to do this. You certainly need to do research in which countries it's possible, in some countries you can get in trouble!
~Snipped~
I've never heard of ATMs providing you with such small bills. The usual amounts are €20 and €50 notes. While that's somewhat convenient because smaller bills are easier to spend, it really puts off the usage of larger bills if you happen to have any. Airport control is a quite controversial subject, and you may run into trouble for carrying too much cash with you. It really depends on your luck and the occasion. Countries in Schengen, like Greece and Croatia, are free to travel between borders, so it's generally safer to carry undeclared cash.-snip-
There are multiple ways to bypass that, such as withdrawing to a Revolut account and then to your bank, but anyway.
Yes, that's a good question and I can't answer it either. Perhaps the person originally did not want to put the money into the account and later changed their mind.
However, there were also times when you could lose your bank account if the bank could see that the money came from selling cryptocurrency. There were a lot of cases like that, even if that hardly ever happens nowadays. Maybe the seller wanted to cover this up. That would actually be the most plausible explanation for this, because the case was two or three years ago.
However, there were also times when you could lose your bank account if the bank could see that the money came from selling cryptocurrency. There were a lot of cases like that, even if that hardly ever happens nowadays. Maybe the seller wanted to cover this up. That would actually be the most plausible explanation for this, because the case was two or three years ago.
The distribution of €500 has stopped, but even if it hadn't, spending such a large amount is almost impossible.
Tell me about it, because I have a problem even if I try to pay with a EUR 100 bill, given that we have just entered the Eurozone and our ATMs only pay out denominations of EUR 5, 10 and 20, and the national currency was even 7.5 times weaker than euros. I doubt that I will ever see a 500 EUR bill.
Bringing a ton of cash through the airport is impossible without going through customs declaration; that's why GazetaBitcoin mentioned splitting the money into a few trips. On the other hand, having a decent amount of undeclared cash doesn't help at all, because you can't actually use them for large cash purchases.
This should not be a problem if you are traveling within the Schengen Area, although I cannot say whether the procedure at airports is the same as at road border crossings where the border does not actually exist. Romania and Bulgaria are not part of that zone, and that's why things get complicated there, but if you choose another country, then theoretically you can cross the border without expecting any control.
Of course, all this is assuming that you don't act too nervous and suspicious at the airport, because such people attract attention.
Has this ever happened before? I'd assume that you'd have to accidentally come into contact with some shady mafia group over e.g. Bisq for that to even be a remote possibility.
It hasn't happened to me myself, but it has to other people. Someone here in the forum also reported about it in the german local board. Can't find the thread right now. But I can remember that he sold bitcoins for €500 and received counterfeit money. He only noticed this when he wanted to deposit the money at the bank. Unfortunately, he did not report further whether the buyer could be caught with the counterfeit money. 
Has this ever happened before? I'd assume that you'd have to accidentally come into contact with some shady mafia group over e.g. Bisq for that to even be a remote possibility.
It hasn't happened to me myself, but it has to other people. Someone here in the forum also reported about it in the german local board. Can't find the thread right now. But I can remember that he sold bitcoins for €500 and received counterfeit money. He only noticed this when he wanted to deposit the money at the bank. Unfortunately, he did not report further whether the buyer could be caught with the counterfeit money. 
OP, I think you've asked a question that many people would like an answer to (myself included). However, exchanging Bitcoin for cash firsthand doesn't seem safe to me at all. Instead, you could start by selling small amounts on Bisq and opening multiple online bank accounts in other countries (if it's possible from your country). Alternatively, the toughest solution but one that should be a priority for all of us is to start Orange Pill merchants and create a circular economy in our areas. You might wonder how it's possible, but take a cue from the Bitcoin Jungle or the Bitcoin Lake.
In that case, if you succeed, you won't need to exchange them for FIAT.
In that case, if you succeed, you won't need to exchange them for FIAT.
how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.
If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.
My point was that you will most likely be questioned by authorities on the source of those funds and you'd have to admit that they were cashed out from cryptocurrency holdings or risk an arrest, or seizure of those funds.
Admitting that will of course lead to even more questions on where did you obtain the crypto from, since police deal with a ton of scammers that have a modulus operandi like that.
how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.
If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.
My point was that you will most likely be questioned by authorities on the source of those funds and you'd have to admit that they were cashed out from cryptocurrency holdings or risk an arrest, or seizure of those funds.
Admitting that will of course lead to even more questions on where did you obtain the crypto from, since police deal with a ton of scammers that have a modulus operandi like that.
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how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.
If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.
However, since I understood that OP wants to have the entire operation done off the radar I suggested him to make multiple trips to the point of exchanging the money and only cash out amounts of 9999 euros, which do not have to be declared. Alternatively, OP could also plan a nice vacation and exchange more than 9999 euros and spend the money before returning home or return with an amount not greater than 9999 euros.
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